86 replies to this topic

[CobraFive]

To say that respawns have no place whatsoever in MW or dims down the gameplay or that they have no merit, is not true at all.

Of course done wrong, if we just have a meat grinder and throw mechs at eachother, a COD clone, then it would detract from gameplay.

But there are many many very strategic games that have respawn, for example, Natural Selection had a very deep strategic game, far deeper then MWO will ever be, a very intense tactical game, as well as respawns. Although the CO game mode cut the strategy out, it was still more in-depth then many other games. The NS mode is what I refer to specifically though. And battlefield, the earlier ones specifically, is a perfect example of how respawns can work in a large-scale game. It really shifts the emphasis from being a deathmatch, to being an objective-based game. Without respawns, its like WoT: Killing the enemy is always the objective, the flag is just there to deter stalemates.

Of course, the game can work without respawns, as well- WoT may be glorified deathmatch but it shows depth. Or counterstrike, using the same system- another glorified deathmatch.

And yes. I played MPBT: Solaris. To say fun respawns is impossible because it has not be done in MW is narrow-minded. There are many systems that work, such as fighting over spawn points, a wave-based system, a tickets system (with more powerful mechs being worth more tickets), many of which add much to the strategic layer, rather then detract from it.

To me, as long as it is done well, I don't mind if there are respawns or not (although I am hoping for yes )

[Haeso]

Stormwolf, on 27 November 2011 - 01:48 PM, said:

Gotta disagree with this.

There should be no MFB's or repairs on the Battlefield. The game is about tactical battles where you need to take out the enemy as efficiently as possible. Adding in respawns (or repairs as mentioned it) is gonna degenerate this into a braindead deathmatch.

People who get killed within 2 minutes are probably not playing very smart.

Repair bays that can only repair still-living mechs add quite a bit to the game, repairing a downed mech would be bad, replacing destroyed weapons would be bad, but just restoring armor/ammunition would be good. It'd need to take a fair bit longer than the ones in say MW4 did though, and if the bay is destroyed while you're in it, gg.

[Sera]

The solution is simple. Put in an 'arcade mode', a simulator, where you can play with respawns and ranking and leave the planetary game no respawn.
This way pilots can practice in the simulator and still achieve something by being listed in the rankings, kills, deaths, win rate, accuracy, etc., and the planetary game stays realistic.

Edited by Sera, 28 November 2011 - 02:34 AM.

[God of War]

there is no need for a respawn! if you play a mission an die, so be it! Live and learn...
Would be a reat experience to zerg a Assualt mech down with 3 light mechs, only to see him pop up on the radar again after 20 seconds.
No, thanks!

[Cyote13]

Re-spawning should only happen in very rare conditions. Maybe if a large unit battle was set up and could call for reinforcements, and then they should arrive in lance/star sized elements, not 30 seconds after a guy dies.

[superbob]

There may be a 'arcade' mode which will be mostly about deathmatch, where re-spawning will make sense.

Otherwise, I'd like everyone I shot to stay dead until the end of the match. Everyone who is dumb enough to get shot up too soon or to waste all their ammo in first 5min has to stay useless. Otherwise, there would be no point in tactics like provoking enemies to waste their ammo, harassing them with light lasers or trying to disable their big guns. They'd just come back in a moment and finish your beat up mech, and then you'd be back up doing the same, until this silly tug of war was tipped far enough to one side, or the time limit was hit.

Basically, when everyone just re-spawns in a moment, the game boils down to having to eliminate your enemies in the quickest, most efficient fashion, with little regard for ammo reserves and avoiding damage.

It would make some more sense if each player could bring more then one mech to a fight (up to some maximum total tonnage) and pilot their secondary/tertiary mechs in case their primary one was destroyed or disabled - and once the battle is over, pay to have their mechs fixed. That would both make everyone careful not to take unnecessary damage, and there wouldn't be a problem with enemies just re spawning over and over.

[Mechteric]

I would prefer if some game types had some form of respawn and others didn't, that way everyone gets something they want because I can understand in a 20 minute round someone doesn't really want to wait out for 15+ minutes after death. But the respawn matches should be wave-based and only happen about once a minute rather than instant respawn, that way the enemy team has some time to recuperate and regroup before they come back with fresh new assets.

Edited by capperdeluxe, 28 November 2011 - 05:21 AM.

[DocBach]

There have been several previous BattleTech/MechWarrior games that didn't allow respawns. In fact, I think MW4 was the only one that has allowed respawns.

If PGI is going to do respawns, I don't want to see 'Mechs magically appear from thin air. If you respawn, then you have to either walk off the ramp of your dropship, or walk your 'Mech out of its hangar. Then have both of those destructible, so they serve as a tactical objective for each team to want to destroy.

And I don't want to see an infinite number of respawns. Perhaps if each team is 4 vs 4, you pick what your three 'Mechs are going to be via a tonnage limit before the drop. You might start off as a Raven so you can get your recon in, but when that 'Mech gets blown up, you've got an Awesome to battle over an objective then finally you picked a Catapult to support the rest of your llance when you respawn again so you can use that extra range to help your team out at the last moments of the game.

That way, a 4 vs 4 limit on players is actually like a company of 12 'Mechs vs a company of 12 'Mechs.

[AC]

Respawn in a game like this is a horrible idea. I just remember how excited I was for Crysis 2, but once I played the multiplayer it was such a let down. I have tried to get into the multiplayer a number of times, and again just recently, but its horrible. A few bullets kills you, people are spawning all over the place, you get shot in the back from people spawning behind you, its pure chaos, there is no strategy or teamwork, people camp spawn points, there is no real objective and no sense of winning, etc. Horrible horrible horrible...

There are games that require some sort of respawn, but this is NOT one of them. BF2142 respawn was at least decent in that the respawns were 'reinforcements', plus there was battlefield organization. However, even in that game you had spawn campers, and my least favorite, suicide hunters. People that would run into a group of people, throw down some explosives and blow themselves and everyone up. Respawn leads to cheap tactics....always.....

Some of my most memorable games all come from no respawn. What is more fun than having a blown out side torso, being down a few weapons, low on ammo, and yet finishing off the last mech on the opposing team. No respawn leads to secondary skills, like rotating armor to distribute damage, managing your ammunition, protecting damaged sections, and working closely with your team. You don't need to do ANY of that in a respawn game. The only respawn game I ever really enjoyed was the wave respawn in MW4. Once the entire opposing team is destroyed or the mission objective achieved, then everyone respawns. That is the only fun and fair way to do a respawn.

Regardless, I wouldn't want to see this implemented as it leads to a 'best out of 5' type scenario where the game gets monotonous and boring. Half the fun is trying to figure out what the other team has deployed, and formulate a strategy on the spot to deal with them. Unit commanders that can be flexible on the battle field is what separates good units from great units... and there are a number of people that enjoy coordinating the team on the battlefield. Respawn reduces/eliminates the need for a battlefield commander, so the game would appeal to fewer people. (and generate less $$$)

I would not be opposed to a sub-game within MWO. Call it MWO-Solaris where people can jump into a respawn game to test configs or just blow things up for a few minutes. Maybe have rankings for the Solaris sub-game for bragging rights or something.

Edited by AC, 28 November 2011 - 10:36 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

No thank you, respawn is for CoD and Battlefield.
Simple way to stop people being bored when they are dead after 30 seconds of stupidity is the same as it is in WoT, allow people to exit the battle, select another mech find new game untill the last one is complete.

[The1WithTheGun]

Respawning is going to be a necessity if this game is going to attract anyone but the most hardcore gamers.

Thankfully, there is a way to have both respawns and tactical gameplay where you don't want to throw away mechs needlessly: a ticket system.

Battlefield does it, Mechwarrior Living Legends does it. It works well, is somewhat forgiving, and still makes players aware of the "bigger picture" in the game; the team that works together wins in the end.

As an aside - there is nothing stopping the devs from including a hardcore "no respawn" rule option on some maps. I just think having it as the rule would hurt the game, not help it.

Edited by The1WithTheGun, 28 November 2011 - 03:02 PM.

[The1WithTheGun]

AC, on 28 November 2011 - 10:35 AM, said:

There are games that require some sort of respawn, but this is NOT one of them. BF2142 respawn was at least decent in that the respawns were 'reinforcements', plus there was battlefield organization. However, even in that game you had spawn campers, and my least favorite, suicide hunters. People that would run into a group of people, throw down some explosives and blow themselves and everyone up. Respawn leads to cheap tactics....always.....

No - what leads to cheap tactics is the fact that they often work well.

Tell me something - if MO had the equivalent of the "jihad jeep" - where one member of a side sacrifices himself to take out multiple members of an opposing force (or even a single, more powerful unit) - are you telling me nobody would try it? Especially in a no-respawn game where every single player is a precious resource?

Edited by The1WithTheGun, 28 November 2011 - 03:03 PM.

[Mchawkeye]

No respawning.

The game is about tactical advantage, or at least, That's how it comes across to me. respawning merely promotes a numbers battle, where you aren't scared to throw everything you got at anything because you know if they get canned, they be back in a minute.

One life per match encourages a certain amount of caution, it adds to the role of light/medium mechs providing as much information before committing your forces and adds to the over all tension within the mission.

I want a tactical game, not a game of big guns, big numbers and zero tactics. That's called 40k (at least on the table).

Well, that's my take on it.

[Black Sunder]

How about this:

You can respawn as many times as you like but each time after the first then your repair bill gets added onto and doubles for each time to reflect the half done repairs made and the stress that is being put on the mech.

[Miles Tails Prower]

When large units of mechs do combat, it doesn't all happen at once. Forces from both sides filter into the battle, vanguards lead the way for larger forces behind them.

If you want some kind of respawning system without compromising the tactical value of each mech then have the players come in waves. When the players are destroyed they wait until the wave timer ends and a fresh lance of respawns appear to continue the battle.

If that isn't good enough, and you want to combat arcade style gameplay further, combine reinforcement waves with some kind of logistic point system. Give each side an ammount of reinforcement points that are expended based on the battle value of the mech destroyed, you reinforce in waves but once your side has suffered enough losses they don't reinforce anylonger.

Now you're rewarded for fighting smart, hanging in there, and preserving equipment. But you're also not left sitting there high and dry if you're the first mech jock to go down and have to wait for 15 minutes for the game to end.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 28 November 2011 - 03:32 PM.

[Blackfire1]

I love how everyone who says "No respawns ever" never give well thought out points as to why besides different versions of "just because." They have no valid argument but "thats how it is" and "tactical this and that."

You have to think about this from a gameplay perspective. This game will have respawning. HOW that respawning is handled is what everyone is ******* and moaning over.

There is only one game where you don't have respawns. Thats EvE. You lose your ship your done. Get to start all over. I bet you 4 out of 5 people on here don't want to lose their battle mech permanently. SO guess what THAT is a RESPAWN. It doesn't happen in map, but it happens.

Everyone's opinion of respawning also seem to come from FPS. Yet everyone has neglected the idea that every Mechwarrior has a massive support crew backing them up. Respawn CAN be implimented well. As it should. Will it be insta pops like FPS? With unlimited pops per match? Nope. Unless that match is designed for that type of respawn.


Stop preaching "its a tactics game." Because you miss the point where it is a GAME. You want no respawns go join the armed forces and pratice tactics in real life.

Are there matches where there won't be any respawns? YES!
Are there matches where there WILL be respawns? YES!
Why? Because if a f-ing game.

Now that this has been settled. Lets move on to something that matters. Like real gameplay mechanics.

[AC]

The1WithTheGun, on 28 November 2011 - 02:59 PM, said:

No - what leads to cheap tactics is the fact that they often work well.

Tell me something - if MO had the equivalent of the "jihad jeep" - where one member of a side sacrifices himself to take out multiple members of an opposing force (or even a single, more powerful unit) - are you telling me nobody would try it? Especially in a no-respawn game where every single player is a precious resource?

Unless I misunderstand, you completely contradict yourself. No Respawn is an entirely different game play. If you sacrafice yourself to take out something on the other team, your out of the match. As it should be. That is a valid tactic. Throwing down RDX explosides, blowing you and another person up, then respawning and doing it again is lame. Its also typically performed by those with bad lag as they know they can't be hit while they are running in. And they don't care if they blow up, because they will respawn in 5 seconds so they can do it again.

Basically you end up with 1 guy running around being a jerkoff having fun, while pissingoff a whole server full of people. Games that allow cheap tactics flare out fast. No one enjoys being the victim of cheap shots, so the players stop playing. I would prefer this game be around for awhile, which is why I am on the No Respawn side of the coin.

[DocBach]

Respawns are a huge gameplay mechanic - and almost all of the MechWarrior games prior had no respawn - the games were generally pretty quick and lethal, so there wasn't too much wait for the next drop.

If the game has a respawn system that makes sense, I've got no problem with it. But a 95 ton death machine popping out of thin air doesn't make much sense. I proposed earlier that each player gets a drop limit for tonnage and can pick up to three different 'Mechs in their queue. If one gets blown up, you can deploy in the next one from your drop ship (attackers) or base (defenders). By taking the respawns, though, the player should be penalized for each of his deaths by having to pay for the repair bill for each one if they get destroyed or damaged. This system would allow each lance of players the ability to field an entire company of BattleMechs to the field, lance sized elements at a time.

[VYCanis]

No respawn is fine if you are going for a specific game mode or modes, but there has to be respawn gameplay somewhere.

keep in mind,

1. No respawn is a harsh mistress, if its the only game mode you can't really expect newbies to get the hang of a game in any appreciable amount of time when 30 seconds from the beginning of a match, they die and spend the next 15 minutes sitting on the sidelines waiting for next game. That drives off players like the plague.

2. A lot of players have things called lives, jobs, families. They want to get as much mech action crammed into as little time as possible. If 40 minutes out of an hour of playing MW:O is sitting around in spectator mode, that is not good.

If anything you need both and a mix of gameplay modes. Respawn for people to painlessly get the hang of the game and get as much experience as quickly as possible, limited or consequence based respawns for basic play for those that want more decisive gameplay, and finally no respawns, "all or nothing type gameplay" for the vet players.


besides if it stretches credulity too much to have mechs spawning in, you could always have them get ferried in via dropship or HALO in with a jumppack or something,

and here's a thought, but what if in hardcore/hardcorier whatever modes, you can respawn all you want, but only if you eject, and only if you have a replacement mech, or maybe only if you have enough cbills. Get headcapped or run out of mechs/money, and you're out

Edited by VYCanis, 28 November 2011 - 04:51 PM.

[PhantomX]

I'm curious as to why a no respawn game leads to a better tactical experience. In any tactical game repairing and replenishing your forces is always a good tactic. We keep trying to penalize the player for going down in the first place as well regardless of their skill level. And making someone have to leave their friends that they just started a match together isn't very fun either. We keep forgetting

THIS IS A GAME

And games are to be fun. You should leave the option of respawn or no-respawn to the players and mode you are playing not the Devs.

As far as respawning I made an earlier post of it similar to Section 8 where you can be "dropped" in from high orbit to an area your team controls. Or I like someone said here about hangers, which in the game can be captured or destroyed to change the respawn time. Now I do agree that anything under 5mins respawn time is going to make the game a meat grinder. With 5mins the other team has time to achieve their goal and win while everyone is down, but enough time for someone to come back and help the team.

And to the one saying the cheap tactic of running up and killing yourself to take out or severely damage 2 or more enemies. Do you think a no respawn is going to stop such tactics? If anything, it makes that tactic even more enticing to him.

And as well we still don't know the play style of the game, yet. But, from what I've gathered it is merc companies trying to control areas of the Inner Sphere. Or in other words, Area vs Area/Conquest. I'd like to see this combine both Mechwarrior and Mechcommander. Leaders and officers of the merc company can use the other resources of the company, Aerospace, tanks, ships, etc including rescuing teammates and fielding units like MFBs (other NPCs) as they see a bigger picture also constructing bases. Maybe even setting waypoints for the PCs. Just a thought