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Solaris Pay Mode Only?


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#1 XX Sulla XX

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 03:18 PM

OK question if they did Solaris with 1v1, 2vs2 etc and all the things people want with Solaris would you be OK with it being ONLY a playable if you have Premium Time? With maybe 24 man game modes being free?

The reason I ask is because it would take more servers for them to run lots of games with small groups of people in them. Also it would help pay for development for Solaris so people could get the features they want.

So what do you think??

Edit - Possibly having a Solaris pack and the Solaris based sale items later on would do the trick. You get both money up front and then more income later. It also seems like it would work better as an esport to help get players into the game.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 05 April 2015 - 07:19 PM.


#2 Xetelian

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 03:28 PM

Pay gate the queue and it'll be a looong wait

#3 XX Sulla XX

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 03:31 PM

Be a long wait for small group Solaris though if its not viable financially.

#4 SweetJackal

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 06:43 PM

View PostXX Sulla XX, on 05 April 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

Be a long wait for small group Solaris though if its not viable financially.

Nope, you've missed the mark. The argument PGI has put out is that running small groups without a paywall will cost them too much money, which is extremely misleading and using the wrong reason behind infrastructure to lock sub 12v12 behind a paywall.

It doesn't matter how many players are in MWO at a given moment, how many are playing the game or even how many are in matches. The costs behind server infrastructure and the resources needed to run MWO are a flat expense: PGI doesn't suddenly have their costs skyrocket during even weekends because everyone and their dog logs in to play, just like how they aren't saving money during the low-pop lulls during the weekday and holidays.

What does cost Money (with a capital M) is providing the resources to be able to handle the peak time demand and stress on the infrastructure- that's initial investment and monthly maintenance. It is also true that having the same sized player pool running in smaller groups will increase the demand and strain on that server infrastructure. The reason why that demand doesn't mean instantly higher costs, requires a larger investment into server infrastructure or failing servers from too much demand placed on them at once is because of Resource Management.

That is to say they could remove the paywall for sub 12v12 private matches without harming the regular game or increasing their monthly costs by putting in a queue. Since PGI can't magically have servers pop up out of the ground for when people with premium time do create sub 12v12 private matches they have had to section off a part of their current server infrastructure to handle private matches in general. Just as they have had to have CW matches and demand managed on their infrastructure, just as they are going to have to do if they put in 4v4 Lance Mode for the smaller maps.

If they were to remove the paywall for sub 12v12 private matches then all they would need to do is manage a queue. That is, if all the server space reserved for that type of private matches was used up then those players in sub 12v12 games would have to wait for space to become free. Doing it this way allows Premium Time to be given priority, allows them to jump to the front of the queue. Also gives them data on if future servers or investments into infrastructure would help in the future.

Instead putting sub 12v12 private matches behind a paywall was a way to make Premium Time appear to have more value and to deter the majority from playing in sub 12v12 for technical reasons. Putting a small group FFA styled Solaris Arena behind a paywall would serve the same goals, to drive players -away- from that mode.

If and When Solaris does come to MWO it should be without a paygate. Not only because it provides more angles for sales (think DOTA2 Announcers, Taunts or Tribes Voice Packs) but it also provides what is in universe a spectacle sport. Meaning they can do more with it and be flexible with the format to support tournament play, even build it to host in game PGI (Or Comstar) sanctioned tournaments. Also gives incentive toward providing a proper replay and spectator system.

In addition, if steps were taken to disassociate Dollar Value to Mech Credits (by providing a measured means to gain MC in game in controlled amounts for free- just by playing) then PGI would be in a position to be able to skirt around the Quebec law that limits total prize pools.

#5 Koniks

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 06:54 PM

They're no longer subject to Quebec's prize pool laws. Buying out IGP and publishing themselves means they're subject to Vancouver, BC's.

#6 XX Sulla XX

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 07:18 PM

Quote

That is, if all the server space reserved for that type of private matches was used up then those players in sub 12v12 games would have to wait for space to become free. Doing it this way allows Premium Time to be given priority, allows them to jump to the front of the queue. Also gives them data on if future servers or investments into infrastructure would help in the future.
Just like having players behind a paywal this can drive players away. I believe a better option is just figuring out how to pay for the infrastruture they need at the start.

Possibly having a Solaris pack and the Solaris based sale items later on would do the trick. You get both money up front and then more income later. Also as you mentioned it lends itself to an esport more than the normal game.

#7 Bobzilla

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 07:33 PM

If they have weekly mc giveaway events, and the entrance fee was mc, that'd be ok.

Even being able to grind a entrance 'ticket' in some way, thats pretty long so you encourage the mc purchase, would work.

Or if PT is needed have a weekly way to earn a day of PT. Like play 5 of each game mode per week or win 5 matches in each weight class per week. Encourage players to play as well as give an opportunity to eliminate the pay wall. 52 PT days in 1 year isn't a whole lot for increaseing the number of regular players.

#8 SweetJackal

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 08:04 PM

View PostBobzilla, on 05 April 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

If they have weekly mc giveaway events, and the entrance fee was mc, that'd be ok.

Even being able to grind a entrance 'ticket' in some way, thats pretty long so you encourage the mc purchase, would work.

Or if PT is needed have a weekly way to earn a day of PT. Like play 5 of each game mode per week or win 5 matches in each weight class per week. Encourage players to play as well as give an opportunity to eliminate the pay wall. 52 PT days in 1 year isn't a whole lot for increaseing the number of regular players.

When I talk about allowing MC to be earned for free in game I am talking about it being carefully controlled and either capped daily or having significant dimishing returns. Talking under 100 MC a day.

The benefits of it are rather large as it empowers free players, giving them a second progression path not related to ingame curreny and gets free players used to using premium currency as well as getting them to consider premium currency items. This means those items now have a greater weight in terms of draw and generates more desire for premium currency. Also increases the frequency of cosmetic items seen in game.

Long term effects are an easier jump from free to freemium player, better looking players due to increased frequency of cosmetics and improved player retention by expanding the marketing appeal to include more players. Putting in an MC economy like this also opens the door to MC sinks, one of which being the ever so popular Lockboxes found in the business models of other F2P games.

#9 AEgg

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 08:32 PM

I'm curious if the "added cost" of three 4v4 games instead of one 12v12 game is purely a contractual thing (i.e. the server provider says you can run this many game server processes for this cost) or if three smaller game servers would actually tax their hardware more.

For many games, it's only the total player count that matters. Three 4v4 servers can have the same bandwidth and hardware requirements as one 12v12 server, if not less (as the 12v12 server has to send data for 23 other players to everyone while the 4v4 servers only need to send it for seven). Sometimes that isn't the case. It really depends on lots of things we don't know.

But if the limitation is contractual, it's possible PGI already got around it when they switched providers a while ago, and just never told us about it. If it's a hardware limitation, it would have to be fixed to allow four player drops to begin with, unless they take the easy way out and make every four player game actually a mostly empty 24 player game (and this is what I would imagine they plan on doing, since they still say that multiple smaller games cost more to run).

#10 Stoned Prophet

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 08:39 PM

View PostSuckyJack, on 05 April 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

Nope, you've missed the mark. The argument PGI has put out is that running small groups without a paywall will cost them too much money, which is extremely misleading and using the wrong reason behind infrastructure to lock sub 12v12 behind a paywall.

It doesn't matter how many players are in MWO at a given moment, how many are playing the game or even how many are in matches. The costs behind server infrastructure and the resources needed to run MWO are a flat expense: PGI doesn't suddenly have their costs skyrocket during even weekends because everyone and their dog logs in to play, just like how they aren't saving money during the low-pop lulls during the weekday and holidays.

What does cost Money (with a capital M) is providing the resources to be able to handle the peak time demand and stress on the infrastructure- that's initial investment and monthly maintenance. It is also true that having the same sized player pool running in smaller groups will increase the demand and strain on that server infrastructure. The reason why that demand doesn't mean instantly higher costs, requires a larger investment into server infrastructure or failing servers from too much demand placed on them at once is because of Resource Management.

That is to say they could remove the paywall for sub 12v12 private matches without harming the regular game or increasing their monthly costs by putting in a queue. Since PGI can't magically have servers pop up out of the ground for when people with premium time do create sub 12v12 private matches they have had to section off a part of their current server infrastructure to handle private matches in general. Just as they have had to have CW matches and demand managed on their infrastructure, just as they are going to have to do if they put in 4v4 Lance Mode for the smaller maps.

If they were to remove the paywall for sub 12v12 private matches then all they would need to do is manage a queue. That is, if all the server space reserved for that type of private matches was used up then those players in sub 12v12 games would have to wait for space to become free. Doing it this way allows Premium Time to be given priority, allows them to jump to the front of the queue. Also gives them data on if future servers or investments into infrastructure would help in the future.

Instead putting sub 12v12 private matches behind a paywall was a way to make Premium Time appear to have more value and to deter the majority from playing in sub 12v12 for technical reasons. Putting a small group FFA styled Solaris Arena behind a paywall would serve the same goals, to drive players -away- from that mode.

If and When Solaris does come to MWO it should be without a paygate. Not only because it provides more angles for sales (think DOTA2 Announcers, Taunts or Tribes Voice Packs) but it also provides what is in universe a spectacle sport. Meaning they can do more with it and be flexible with the format to support tournament play, even build it to host in game PGI (Or Comstar) sanctioned tournaments. Also gives incentive toward providing a proper replay and spectator system.

In addition, if steps were taken to disassociate Dollar Value to Mech Credits (by providing a measured means to gain MC in game in controlled amounts for free- just by playing) then PGI would be in a position to be able to skirt around the Quebec law that limits total prize pools.

I would like to see your evidence including documents proving how much they pay and any agreements they have concerning server usage maint etc.

Otherwise Ill continue to assume youre talking out of your ass.

#11 Elizander

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 08:58 PM

View PostSuckyJack, on 05 April 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

Nope, you've missed the mark. The argument PGI has put out is that running small groups without a paywall will cost them too much money, which is extremely misleading and using the wrong reason behind infrastructure to lock sub 12v12 behind a paywall.

It doesn't matter how many players are in MWO at a given moment, how many are playing the game or even how many are in matches. The costs behind server infrastructure and the resources needed to run MWO are a flat expense: PGI doesn't suddenly have their costs skyrocket during even weekends because everyone and their dog logs in to play, just like how they aren't saving money during the low-pop lulls during the weekday and holidays.

What does cost Money (with a capital M) is providing the resources to be able to handle the peak time demand and stress on the infrastructure- that's initial investment and monthly maintenance. It is also true that having the same sized player pool running in smaller groups will increase the demand and strain on that server infrastructure. The reason why that demand doesn't mean instantly higher costs, requires a larger investment into server infrastructure or failing servers from too much demand placed on them at once is because of Resource Management.

That is to say they could remove the paywall for sub 12v12 private matches without harming the regular game or increasing their monthly costs by putting in a queue. Since PGI can't magically have servers pop up out of the ground for when people with premium time do create sub 12v12 private matches they have had to section off a part of their current server infrastructure to handle private matches in general. Just as they have had to have CW matches and demand managed on their infrastructure, just as they are going to have to do if they put in 4v4 Lance Mode for the smaller maps.


Some datacenter services like Amazon Web Services provide on-demand server scaling which you pay for by the hour and we don't know if they're availing of a similar service. AWS servers can scale up within minutes of reaching a specific threshold and scale down when you go below that line. Even if they have their own hardware, they can perhaps be renting additional servers to meet demand as needed. Of course traditional data centers are fixed in capacity and would require physically moving in new servers to increase capacity, but we're not sure which one they have.

Edited by Elizander, 05 April 2015 - 11:56 PM.


#12 SaltBeef

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 10:54 PM

Pay Only!!...Elitist!! You are going get the Commie Bong throwing Hippies in rebellion with that thread title.

#13 Impyrium

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 12:08 AM

Depends.

Maybe if they had different tiers. The base tier being free and open, but perhaps you could have extra high level or ranked tiers for more serious competitive players that require a small MC or high CBill cost to purchase an entry ticket for. Buuuut 'list' these matches in a browser and allow people to spectate them like a true Solaris match, and give these matches a high payout in rewards to balance the risk/reward of paying to play. I can see that being fun.

I'm more worried about splitting the player base again into another system of play... it'd be better if Solaris was somehow merged with the current public queue as an extra mode and functionality added to browse and start 'high tier' Solaris games.

#14 ThirtyOughtSix

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 06:09 AM

In regards to additional server cost/strain with Solaris why not implement a subscription based thing? $5/month for Solaris would be easily in the realm of achievable. Even if it was 1000 MC/month. With all the events F2P players should be able to keep up their MC to subscribe to Solaris. Those who play less have to purchase $6.95 worth of MC a month. I'd imagine this would be real nice for PGI to have a basic monthly cash flow (as opposed to the ups and downs of random purchases).

I for one would do it...hell I did EVE at $40(?)/month. Ridic for a game I didn't even love playing.

#15 Burktross

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 06:11 AM

View PostHyper99, on 06 April 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

In regards to additional server cost/strain with Solaris why not implement a subscription based thing? $5/month for Solaris would be easily in the realm of achievable. Even if it was 1000 MC/month. With all the events F2P players should be able to keep up their MC to subscribe to Solaris. Those who play less have to purchase $6.95 worth of MC a month. I'd imagine this would be real nice for PGI to have a basic monthly cash flow (as opposed to the ups and downs of random purchases).

I for one would do it...hell I did EVE at $40(?)/month. Ridic for a game I didn't even love playing.

Premium time, then?

#16 ThirtyOughtSix

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 06:17 AM

View PostBurktross, on 06 April 2015 - 06:11 AM, said:

Premium time, then?


Sort of. Premium time could get real expensive for some of the hardcore ones though. Your talking $15-30 a month.

#17 Burktross

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 06:17 AM

View PostHyper99, on 06 April 2015 - 06:17 AM, said:

Sort of. Premium time could get real expensive for some of the hardcore ones though. Your talking $15-30 a month.

Wouldn't solaris make it more worthwhile, though?

#18 ThirtyOughtSix

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 06:25 AM

View PostBurktross, on 06 April 2015 - 06:17 AM, said:

Wouldn't solaris make it more worthwhile, though?


Oh I agree comepletely. BUT, as a business man I want to avoid a high tax on my product to keep the customer base happy. I guess what I am saying is yes to a tax for Solaris, no to a high tax.

#19 Paigan

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 06:25 AM

I'd like the Idea that one has to pay MC to participate in a solaris tournament and the winner price comes out of the sum of all entry fees minus a little offset which would be PGIs income, so to speak.

#20 Burktross

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 06:26 AM

View PostHyper99, on 06 April 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

Oh I agree comepletely. BUT, as a business man I want to avoid a high tax on my product to keep the customer base happy. I guess what I am saying is yes to a tax for Solaris, no to a high tax.

But then it becomes an even higher tax to people who have premium time.
What if solaris can be bought separately, but PT includes it automatically?





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