30 replies to this topic

[Avengar]

basically nerf every advantage that clans have over IS mechs and buff any that need it so that they are completely equal. since PGI doesn't know how to do the clans and balance drops the right way the only option is to make them equal in power levels and capabilities.
The correct/intelligent way to have balanced them would have been to make them as powerful as they should be but adjust the drop numbers 10 clan mechs against 12-14 IS mechs 2 lances and a reinforced lance against 2 stars the whole clan thing has been bungled badly

[Anarcho]

[Avengar]

I know I've read every Battletech/MechWarrior book and had all the TT books and mins, I just hate the way they did it here tey should be super strong but balanced by number of drops that would make it closer to lore, the only way the IS (eventually) fought them was with numbers and taking advantage of their single mech combat method of fighting

[Spheroid]

You are not thinking about all the bad effects superior clan tech would have on the solo queue.

The matchmaker would melt down if you had another variable to balance. A tech base variable AND weight class variable? Not going to happen.

Edited by Spheroid, 05 April 2015 - 08:06 AM.

[InspectorG]

Not gonna happen.

Lore.

Too many variables.

Sales.

3 big reasons.
And t be honest, the only real way to reach perfect balance is to make all mechs the same.
otherwise 'balance' becomes subjective/dependent on context.

Clans have better laser range(at the expense of heat and facetime)
Clans have better Gauss.
Clans have better engines(EXCEPT if trying to zombie)

IS has better quirks(so far)
IS has better WUBS(shorter burn time is better IMO- less spread)
IS has better Dakka.
IS has some mechs with SUPERIOR hardpoint placement - Clans tend to have low weapon loaded arms.
IS tends to be better at brawl because with quirks, some builds can run very cool...at the intended range(Thunderwub vs Timby in sub 300m combat. 500m Timby has advantage)
IS has better LRMs - but who cares about that one.
IS has more customization for engine - good for a coordinated team, problematic for Pugs

SRM are a draw to me, IS has tighter spread but Clans are lighter/smaller

People claim the other Faction is OP, but how do they know it not due to pilot error?

IMO, they are fairly balanced. Specific weapon and equips need addressed though.

[Avengar]

good point, I was just thinking abut CW

[InspectorG]

BT =/= MWO.

Two different games, Two different systems.

Go and try to turn Chess into a 16 vs 16 player realtime strategy game. Plenty of history and lore. The math is there.

Avengar, on 05 April 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

good point, I was just thinking abut CW

That has more to do with the current Maps. Clan range is favored...unless you zerg.

[cSand]

stop with these goddamn threads already!!!

[FupDup]

If I was magically elected president of MWO, I would have an overall Balance Stimulus Package™ with the following steps:

1. Start rebalancing the equipment being used for both sides. Most specifically, some modest nerfs to Clan lasers and XL (I'd use a lower value than Russ' proposed nerf), and finding ways to differentiate items like Clan Gauss/SRMs/LBX/MGs/etc. Also buff things like Flamers, LBX, IS Large Lasers, IS SL, AC/2, Clan UACs, etc. I'd also take this time to add a more legit tradeoff to the whole Endo vs Ferro vs Standard thing, along with DHS vs SHS. JJs, ECM, etc. The whole shebang.

2. Clean State -- Temporarily remove most or all quirks so that we can more accurately judge the effects of step #1.

3. Once the weapons and other items have been ironed out, then start ranking the individual mechs/variants again and start re-adding their quirks as needed.



Preemptive Flameshield: I'm "blanket nerfing" some Clan equipment in preparation for things like Clan standard Battlemechs. As many people know, having all of the power of Clan stuff but with no customization restrictions would end...badly.

People will cite sub-par mechs like the Mist Lynx, Gargles, etc. and those mechs do need improvement...the problem is that the current state of Clan guns makes PGI not want to improve them.

Basically, those sub-par Clan mechs follow the idea of "Superior equipment mounted on inferior platforms." PGI seems to find that to be "balanced."

This means that while the Clan guns are so strong, we can't really improve the base chassis without unleashing crazytown power like the Mad Cat or Ryoken do... The only way we can justify direct improvements to the individual chassis is to reduce the powerlevel of the guns they carry.

Edited by FupDup, 05 April 2015 - 08:40 AM.

[Alienized]

its not that clan weapons have no weaknesses.
players are just too bad to use this.
you can force them to overheat so badly and then kill them with ease.
just show some bloody balls and get into close quarters.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Watch out for censorship, this threads are deleted on this forum quiet fast now.

[Rhent]

InspectorG, on 05 April 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

Not gonna happen.

Lore.

Too many variables.

Sales.

3 big reasons.
And t be honest, the only real way to reach perfect balance is to make all mechs the same.
otherwise 'balance' becomes subjective/dependent on context.

Clans have better laser range(at the expense of heat and facetime)
Clans have better Gauss.
Clans have better engines(EXCEPT if trying to zombie)

IS has better quirks(so far)
IS has better WUBS(shorter burn time is better IMO- less spread)
IS has better Dakka.
IS has some mechs with SUPERIOR hardpoint placement - Clans tend to have low weapon loaded arms.
IS tends to be better at brawl because with quirks, some builds can run very cool...at the intended range(Thunderwub vs Timby in sub 300m combat. 500m Timby has advantage)
IS has better LRMs - but who cares about that one.
IS has more customization for engine - good for a coordinated team, problematic for Pugs

SRM are a draw to me, IS has tighter spread but Clans are lighter/smaller

People claim the other Faction is OP, but how do they know it not due to pilot error?

IMO, they are fairly balanced. Specific weapon and equips need addressed though.

It really comes down to the fact that Clan XL's don't blow up when they lose a torso and IS XL's do blow up when they lose a torso. All that MWO has to do is remove the IS XL's blowing up when they lose a torso and they just balanced difference between the mechs. Sure, Clans still have significantly better weapons at the expense of available free space, however the IS now at least has the option for the weight savings of the XL. Due to the extra critical space that IS gear uses, adding this benefit to IS mechs will have a limited benefit, but it still helps.

[Pariah Devalis]

Alienized, on 05 April 2015 - 08:36 AM, said:

just show some bloody balls and get into close quarters.

Well that right there is your problem.

I swear to god, 80% of the people you encounter in any given game is so freakin' terrified of having their paint scuffed that they refuse to commit to an actual fight. Then they lose. Then they complain.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 April 2015 - 09:42 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Everyone Keep Calm and Urbanmech!




But seriously. They're working on it. My time following and playing MWO. Things are always progressing, if albeit slowly.

[Xione87]

MechaBattler, on 05 April 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

Everyone Keep Calm and Urbanmech!

This syncs pretty well with Dark Lord Funk, which is what I was just listening to

Anyway, for the millionth time: Balancing mech power vs superior numbers really doesn't work in this game. A lot of players would flock to the Clans just because they have superior mechs. And your new fancy balancing system assumes you have more IS players than Clan players, about 20-40% more.

So what happens if you have 3 Clan players vs every 2 IS players? Right, hardly anybody gets to play anymore. Plus player retention takes a dive when new players realize how long it takes to grind out 1-3 Clan mechs to stop getting their butt kicked.

Edited by Xione87, 05 April 2015 - 09:58 AM.

[Alienized]

clans do not more nerfing.
they got the advantage of range and damage, IS got the advantage of shorter beam durations and better autocannons + less heat.

JUST USE WHAT YOUR ADVANTAGE IS!
and stop moaning about things -.-*

Pariah Devalis, on 05 April 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

Well that right there is your problem.

I swear to god, 80% of the people you encounter in any given game is so freakin' terrified of having their paint scuffed that they refuse to commit to an actual fight. Then they lose. Then they complain.

i only have one problem: cowards.

[Soy]

Game should've been 10c v 12is, with Clantech more powerful than it currently is.

I'm talkin no splash PPCs, ACs that aren't split burst trash, unlocked cAP and Flamer on junkmechs, etc.

Could arbitrarily limit it to high Elo only players, a paywall, a CW threshold grind, something.

Game would be better for it, well, CW in particular.

Edited by Soy, 05 April 2015 - 10:11 AM.

[Sadistic Savior]

Grisbane, on 05 April 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

be happy in the fact they are as balanced as they are.. in lore there is no balance.. IS couldn't touch the clans and it took nearly the entire IS armament to hold them at bay for 15 years.

In Lore there is balance...numbers. In lore, IS ganged up on individuals, but Clans did not do that.

On the boardgame, it was normal for IS to have 3 mechs for ever 2 Clan. THAT is balance. The OP is correct...thats how it should have been.

But it is what it is.

[Triordinant]

Avengar, on 05 April 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

basically nerf every advantage that clans have over IS mechs and buff any that need it so that they are completely equal. since PGI doesn't know how to do the clans and balance drops the right way the only option is to make them equal in power levels and capabilities.
The correct/intelligent way to have balanced them would have been to make them as powerful as they should be but adjust the drop numbers 10 clan mechs against 12-14 IS mechs 2 lances and a reinforced lance against 2 stars the whole clan thing has been bungled badly

I think this would have been better than a quality vs. quantity setup.

[RussianWolf]

Avengar, on 05 April 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

basically nerf every advantage that clans have over IS mechs and buff any that need it so that they are completely equal. since PGI doesn't know how to do the clans and balance drops the right way the only option is to make them equal in power levels and capabilities.
The correct/intelligent way to have balanced them would have been to make them as powerful as they should be but adjust the drop numbers 10 clan mechs against 12-14 IS mechs 2 lances and a reinforced lance against 2 stars the whole clan thing has been bungled badly

And clan users would still not follow clan rules of engagement and focus fire on single targets, Clan rules of engagement were a big balancing factor in BT. They just don't fly here.