171 replies to this topic

[LordKnightFandragon]

Warhawk could also get some Ghost heat penalty reduction quirks. Like how CERPPC GH penalty is 7, give it like a 50% GH penalty reduction so it gets like 3.5GH on CERPPC...

On a cold map stationary, it can chain fire the LPL like 23 times before shutting down vs the CERPPC 9.....the LPL does 299dmg, while the CERPPC is going 90.....and CERPPC dont need buffs? lol.

[Summon3r]

Armorine, on 05 April 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

I'll bite here. If y'all don't think the primes worth it what's the best war hawk model and why? I really want us to flesh out this thought processes behind the war hawk being seen as bad. Other then it's mistaken identity syndrome.

i dont think it is bad at all, in fact the 4 LPL version is by far my favorite. it puts up excellent numbers. my only gripe is how easily the ST's fall off

[Lord0fHats]

Averen, on 05 April 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

Stop with that timber-stuff.

Inner faction balance is as significant as the balance between factions. The Stalker doesn't really have to compete for its role as it has a good combination of advantages that leave it unrivaled (excellent profile, good quirks, great hitbox placement, solid hard points) within the context of its own faction. The Warhawk completely lacks all of those advantages. It doesn't have a good profile. Thus far it has no quirks. It's hitboxes are okay but not great. It's hard points suck, both in position to the mech and the effective distribution of pod space.

I didn't say you had to like (I don't like it) but it is what it is.

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So, firing time for a full salvo, taking the 0.5s Ghost Heat Duration plus ~0.25s reaction time into account, is btw around 1.55 for a stalker and 1.87 for the warhawk.

It does matter because there are 12 mechs on the enemy team, not one. 1.87 seconds of exposure with a broad side of the barn sized profile is not a good thing. The Stalker's 1.55 of minimal exposure + an excellent profile is just plain better.

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And why would it get up close?

I'm not the person claiming it would. I see no reason in talking about bizarre will almost never happen scenarios like some silly brawl between a Stalker and a Warhawk or a 1v1 in a game with 12 people to a team.

[Kuritaclan]

Summon3r, on 05 April 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

i dont think it is bad at all, in fact the 4 LPL version is by far my favorite. it puts up excellent numbers. my only gripe is how easily the ST's fall off

its a common prob on all clan mechs, with little to no exceptions

Edited by Kuritaclan, 05 April 2015 - 12:41 PM.

[Piney II]

Armorine, on 05 April 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

The war hawks biggest issue is not its size. It's how's used. I've seen too many try to use it as a brawler. They're not good at that. They're fire support mechs. Not intended for a knife fight. Run them like a none-pulse battle master. Hang back and provide overwhelming firepower where needed. That's how I run my battle masters.

Agreed. I have 4 LPL build that works well........as long as I engage from distance and don't try to to get up close and trade fire. It will fold quickly in a brawl. It didn't take too many matches to convince me to stay out of knife fights. If I can keep some separation and keep my arms intact while I dish out the wub, it can bring the pain. I play it like a giant medium - keep moving and shoot carefully.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

LordKnightFandragon, on 05 April 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

Warhawk could also get some Ghost heat penalty reduction quirks. Like how CERPPC GH penalty is 7, give it like a 50% GH penalty reduction so it gets like 3.5GH on CERPPC...

On a cold map stationary, it can chain fire the LPL like 23 times before shutting down vs the CERPPC 9.....the LPL does 299dmg, while the CERPPC is going 90.....and CERPPC dont need buffs? lol.

CLPL heat: 10
CERPPC heat: 15

Chain fire with the trigger held down isn't the best comparison either, as your LPLs are being fired every 1.12 seconds while the ERPPCs are firing every 0.5 seconds and generates 30 heat in that one second while the LPL is only generating 8.8 heat in that one second. If you fire your PPCs at the same tempo as the LPLs you should effectively double the amount of shots fired.

You should also note that it dealt 299 damage over the course of 26 seconds while the CERPPC dealt it's 90 in 4.5 seconds. So the LPL did 11.6 DPS while CERPPC dealt 20.

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 05 April 2015 - 12:57 PM.

[Sickboy78]

Here we go, Clan people bitching about an IS mech again when pretty much the only territories that have grown significantly in CW are clan territories, arguing clan mechs are still far superior to IS. With lighter weapons, that produce less heat, that have longer range, and lrms with no min distance, which mechs don't explode if they lose a right or left torso. But lets hear it. You ruined the TDR with all your whining. I am sure you won't be satisfied till every IS mech is inferior to even the shittiest clan mech.

[Leeroy Mechkins]

Large Laser ghost heat may be adjusted which will make the Stalker 4N much worse. See Russ' twitter feed.
And clan quirk passes may improve the Warhawk. Is another coming soon?

So at this time there may not be much point to compare Stalker 4N and Warhawk.

Edited by Leeroy Mechkins, 05 April 2015 - 01:04 PM.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Sickboy78, on 05 April 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Here we go, Clan people bitching about an IS mech again when pretty much the only territories that have grown significantly in CW are clan territories, arguing clan mechs are still far superior to IS. With lighter weapons, that produce less heat, that have longer range, and lrms with no min distance, which mechs don't explode if they lose a right or left torso. But lets hear it. You ruined the TDR with all your whining. I am sure you won't be satisfied till every IS mech is inferior to even the shittiest clan mech.

Clan weapons don't produce less heat. That is the whole nature of this discussion. Read some of the posts before whining and cursing please.

The discussion is related to heat, high mounted weapons, and alpha damage given short burn for IS large lasers and how this relates to the roughly equivalent clan mech of the warhawk.

Leeroy Mechkins, on 05 April 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

Large Laser ghost heat may be adjusted which will make the Stalker 4N much worse. See Russ' twitter feed.
And clan quirk passes may improve the Warhawk. Is another coming soon?

So at this time there may not be much point to compare Stalker 4N and Warhawk.

True, but it is interesting that they are both roughly equivalent laser boats. It's definitely interesting to study the two in regards to IS and clan balance

Edited by Blueduck, 05 April 2015 - 01:07 PM.

[Lord0fHats]

Leeroy Mechkins, on 05 April 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

Large Laser ghost heat may be adjusted which will make the Stalker 4N much worse.

All it would change is that Stalkers couldn't fire a 6 LL alpha without overheating. It's a very minor nerf, and the same twitter feed describes it as a thought not a done deal.

Personally, sounds to me like Russ got his face melted off and he didn't enjoy it

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Is another coming soon?

April 7th according to the April Road map. *crosses fingers*

[Yokaiko]

Sickboy78, on 05 April 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Here we go, Clan people bitching about an IS mech again when pretty much the only territories that have grown significantly in CW are clan territories, arguing clan mechs are still far superior to IS. With lighter weapons, that produce less heat, that have longer range, and lrms with no min distance, which mechs don't explode if they lose a right or left torso. But lets hear it. You ruined the TDR with all your whining. I am sure you won't be satisfied till every IS mech is inferior to even the shittiest clan mech.

Missed the 50ish planets that went IS last weekend didn't ya?

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Lord0fHats, on 05 April 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

All it would change is that Stalkers couldn't fire a 6 LL alpha without overheating. It's a very minor nerf, and the same twitter feed describes it as a thought not a done deal.

Personally, sounds to me like Russ got his face melted off and he didn't enjoy it



April 7th according to the April Road map. *crosses fingers*

I don't know if its minor but definitely would help. Last night I had a single stalker blow off all the LT armor and most of the CT armor with a single alpha on my hellbringer. It was almost instantaneous; the short burn time of the LL makes that configuration godly.

[Telmasa]

I have to lol @ this thread. I'm ahead of this curve by a few months.

When I run IS, I use a Stalker with 4ERLL+SRM6s for backup duty. (I actually use the 3H, as for ERLLs its energy quirks match up best.)

When I run Clan, I use a Warhawk with 4CERLL+SSRM6s for keeping brave firestarters off of me

Both of them do superbly at melting the enemy team before they get a chance to dump laserbarfmeta or superquirkcheese all over me...unless it's Sulfurous Rift (ugh), though I can usually make do with the help of the SRMs.

Edited by Telmasa, 05 April 2015 - 01:23 PM.

[Lord0fHats]

A really good counter to stacking Stalkers (or any death ball really) is to just strike them to hell. Problem; Clan mechs cost a lot and many players are still running trials to fill out a drop deck and thus can't carry strikes. Nerfing the Stalker is the easy road, but I'm unconvinced its the best road.

[Aresye]

Sickboy78, on 05 April 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Here we go, Clan people bitching about an IS mech again when pretty much the only territories that have grown significantly in CW are clan territories, arguing clan mechs are still far superior to IS.

Oh give me a break! CW is a numbers game, and if the population was consistent across all 4 months as it was last weekend, the only Clan worlds that would be left would be the capitals of their invasion corridors, unable to break free because they'd have 4 teams stacked against them for every attack they attempted.

[FupDup]

Here's a fun academic exercise...


How would this comparison look if we gave the Stalker access to Clan equipment?

Alternatively, what if we replaced the Masakari's equipment with IS stuff? Maybe just the lasers, because an IS XL wouldn't be very fair for this size of a mech...

[Kuritaclan]

FupDup, on 05 April 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

Here's a fun academic exercise...


How would this comparison look if we gave the Stalker access to Clan equipment?

Alternatively, what if we replaced the Masakari's equipment with IS stuff? Maybe just the lasers, because an IS XL wouldn't be very fair for this size of a mech...

Well the Stalker, would look like the whk, and got a proper XL engine in the 350s+ hammered into - so to counter exzessive use of the tonnage advantage, as PGI did to all Clan Mechs, to counter them in bringing much Damagepotential with a better cooling/more ammo on same speed as IS.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 05 April 2015 - 01:36 PM.

[Ultimax]

I added Timber Wolf Laser vomit testing to see "how hot" it is.


https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

Full alpha is way lower percentage of heatcap vs. 4N Alpha.


If they both fire "half alpha" volleys - they overheat around the same time.



Post is here: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4340581

Edited by Ultimatum X, 05 April 2015 - 01:41 PM.

[Lord0fHats]

Tough one. On the one hand, the Stalker would really love all that lightweight gear. Be hellah fast too.

On the other hand, Clan XL is better than IS XL for survivability, but the Stalker's side torso shields are one of the things that make it so good. Then again, all it can really do one its torsos are out is body block. Useful, but the firepower with that hardpoint layout would probably make it worthwhile.

People need to stop talking about Clan/IS balance solely in terms of the tonnage and heat of clan tech. It's really more complex than that. Most Clan mechs have lowish, or eye level at best weapon hard points. Many Clan mechs also have the cockpit sitting low or center on the torso (meaning we can be shot by things we can't see). The ones that do have cockpit level weapons, often are the same ones that have to expose their whole torso to see. We have scrawny arms that don't remotely shield our torsos from fire for the most part. Nice big leg hitboxes. We can't change our tertiary color either (that's more of a pet peeve than a balance problem ).

Most Clan mechs suffer a combination of these drawbacks, but the Stalker would end up being a literally best of both worlds. The nice high hard point placement generally enjoyed by the IS with the weight advantage afforded to Clans. No more need to whine about whales at that point

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 05 April 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

CLPL heat: 10
CERPPC heat: 15

Chain fire with the trigger held down isn't the best comparison either, as your LPLs are being fired every 1.12 seconds while the ERPPCs are firing every 0.5 seconds and generates 30 heat in that one second while the LPL is only generating 8.8 heat in that one second. If you fire your PPCs at the same tempo as the LPLs you should effectively double the amount of shots fired.

You should also note that it dealt 299 damage over the course of 26 seconds while the CERPPC dealt it's 90 in 4.5 seconds. So the LPL did 11.6 DPS while CERPPC dealt 20.

Goes up to about 13 or so on Frozen river city firing about 1s or so apart.

And a LPL will smoke the PPC in sustained DPS, chain firing those LPL, I can basically keep them going all day.