83 replies to this topic

[Khereg]

If anyone wants to disagree with this premise, feel free, but bottom line I don't think PGI is going to give any group of players authority/power over any other group of players via the ability to enable/restrict gameplay, transfer funds, or any other mechanism. Combined with the points that have been made above about factions not having true leadership that can speak on behalf of the faction as a whole (Who own da Clan?), and most of this conversation is rather pointless.

If (and this is a huge if), anything resembling a true contract system were to be implemented, I believe PGI would absolutely retain control. That could take a number of forms; one possibility being that every faction gets a "leader", be it a Khan, President, Grand Poohbah, or what have you that is a PGI employee. But any informal or player-led system (like what we have now) will be safely ignored by anyone and everyone if they so choose and we can look forward to this thread and others like it continuing into perpetuity.

I find the points being made that "established" groups ranging back to MW2 somehow have a level of implied authority over the rest of the player base to be the most comical. Get over yourselves already. I'm not listening to you any more than you're listening to me.

Edited by Khereg, 06 April 2015 - 02:21 PM.

[LastKhan]

I agree anything leader wise should just remain ran by PGI. Players being at the top only leads to favoritism and corruption. I honestly rather stay far away from that thought of player ran factions as possible.

[Sadistic l]

Defensores 6, on 05 April 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

There should be a way to prevent Mercs from joining a faction. Some of these groups are purposely disrupting inter-clan relationships while pushing their own agenda.

I've just finished a pug CW drop against what at first glance seemed to be a 12 man Smoke Jag team. It was actually a 12 man VRGD team in clan mechs with Smoke Jag colors.

There must be implemented a way for Mercenary units to pay for their plundering ways. We have no recourse, no way to get back at them and it is frustrating, damned frustrating!!


Proof:
https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

People can play this game however they want to, Including cross clan or cross is house attacks. You don't get to dictate how we have fun.

Lawrence Elsa, on 05 April 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

[color=#959595]A lot of us were not expecting mercs to be able to join any faction without being hired directly, and thus it lead to a lot of drama between units that have had friendly ties for nearly 2 decades. The entire reason everyone was upset with -MS- at the beginning of CW was the fact that major communities that had been established since Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries (such as what you now know as CWI, CGBI, JFP, and others that have either shifted away or recently joined the pact) were unprepared for cross-clan attacks, and responded with nothing short of rage.[/color]

This isn't Mechwarrior 2 and your communities from back then mean nothing here. Likewise players are not and never will be in charge of factions so none of us is obligated to abide by your little treaties.

[Tarl Cabot]

LastKhan, on 06 April 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

I agree anything leader wise should just remain ran by PGI. Players being at the top only leads to favoritism and corruption. I honestly rather stay far away from that thought of player ran factions as possible.

With the MPBT games, the House Leaders were players elected into their position. The Houses had constitutions on how a HL could be elected and removed by the player-base, or be removed by Kesmai themselves. Kesmai, the gaming company, had the final say on the leadership, who then signed NDA contracts/etc, thus becoming, essentially, non-paid employees.

This was for House player base. in EGA MPBT 3025 the merc units could only be created after the CO/etc had spent time in the House military and earning a specific rank, game-wise. iirc it was either a LT Col or Col, as well as the funds to run said merc unit. If a House was suffering the HL would get with a few of the merc units, or even with House units, to temporarily move/join the suffering House. For the first version of MPBT 3025 (eventually becoming just MPBT Solaris) it would have worked in a similar fashion for the independent mercs. For canon mercs, such as Kell Hounds/Wolf's Dragoons, etc they would start off as part of that House's military arm. After the actual CW part fell through due to failures of 3rd parties, we ran our own Succession Wars.

But I can see PGI wanting the player base to make their own war councils to drive the player base, unfortunately without a highly visible Major/Minor faction chat channels, with or without minor faction channels/primary planetary base channels, or such, drawing people in is simply a real pita.

For the really competition people, they will find units and such, but the bulk of the population are not at that need/level, but it is those same people that you do not want to lose, but without having readily easily accessible communication within the community, while not in combat, there is no good hook to keep those who are on the fence, or to even entice them to log in. Who of you would stop doing many things in RL if there weren't people who you knew would be there too? Just one person can make a difference.

/puts beer down...dang it where are my glasses and meds!!!

[LastKhan]

Tarl Cabot, on 06 April 2015 - 07:37 PM, said:

With the MPBT games, the House Leaders were players elected into their position. The Houses had constitutions on how a HL could be elected and removed by the player-base, or be removed by Kesmai themselves. Kesmai, the gaming company, had the final say on the leadership, who then signed NDA contracts/etc, thus becoming, essentially, non-paid employees.

This was for House player base. in EGA MPBT 3025 the merc units could only be created after the CO/etc had spent time in the House military and earning a specific rank, game-wise. iirc it was either a LT Col or Col, as well as the funds to run said merc unit. If a House was suffering the HL would get with a few of the merc units, or even with House units, to temporarily move/join the suffering House. For the first version of MPBT 3025 (eventually becoming just MPBT Solaris) it would have worked in a similar fashion for the independent mercs. For canon mercs, such as Kell Hounds/Wolf's Dragoons, etc they would start off as part of that House's military arm. After the actual CW part fell through due to failures of 3rd parties, we ran our own Succession Wars.

But I can see PGI wanting the player base to make their own war councils to drive the player base, unfortunately without a highly visible Major/Minor faction chat channels, with or without minor faction channels/primary planetary base channels, or such, drawing people in is simply a real pita.

For the really competition people, they will find units and such, but the bulk of the population are not at that need/level, but it is those same people that you do not want to lose, but without having readily easily accessible communication within the community, while not in combat, there is no good hook to keep those who are on the fence, or to even entice them to log in. Who of you would stop doing many things in RL if there weren't people who you knew would be there too? Just one person can make a difference.

/puts beer down...dang it where are my glasses and meds!!!

If its done in the right way, but im leaning towards leaving it to PGI just not to over complicate things for their sake. I do agree the numbers for this game isnt enough or at the level for this type of thing. I did enjoy this well thought out post so that's a plus.

[_Comrade_]

their is an easy way to fix the merc problem, limit what factions they can join, if a faction is doing well and advancing well then they don't need a merc unit to join that faction. When a merc units contract ends they should be presented with a list of available contracts, heck if PGI were really creative they can make the contracts objective based as in capture X amount of planets, don't complete the objectives then you dont get paid full commission

ive seen a lot of good ideas about what direction PGI can take the mercs though and honestly i would be happy with any alternative compared to what we have now

[CyclonerM]

I understand your worries, but i do not share them.

First, these leaders would not have ludicrous powers. They would negotiate contracts with merc units and treaties/alliances with other factions, resolve disputes, and direct the overall strategy. Much of this, especially the coordination efforts (but negotations with mercs too, see Prussian's work to hire merc units for CSJ) have already been going on, they would just be more "official", for the overall stability of the intra and inter-faction relations as well as CW as a whole.

Favoritism and greed, you fear? Well, get a majority vote from the big unit leaders and Khan/SaKhan/Loremaster/First Prince go back home Respect must be earned anyway to have the support of most units.

OTH, that should not be easy, or it could be used merely as a political tool.

There is at least another game, Air Rivals, that has something like this. Players vote a president, vice president and "executive officer" or something like that (again, 3 is the perfect number, checks and balances but also different roles and powers). They usually hosted discussions with the unit leaders in a dedicated conference hall in each faction's city and with their imput designed tactics to use and the best times to start the big faction battles (that is one of the presidents' powers) or when to activate faction-wide bonuses earned in these battles. From what i recall, they also acted often as commanders in the field during daily smaller faction battles. They were in charge for a month and they often changed, and every player above a certain level could vote.

However, for MWO i would rather let only the leaders of units with more than X (25? 50?) members to vote, not because i want to exclude the others, but because since this is not a MMORPG, unit leaders are those more likely to know better the candidates having probably dealt with them for unit coordination etc.

I am sure it could be possible

Edited by CyclonerM, 07 April 2015 - 03:59 AM.

[LastKhan]

CyclonerM, on 07 April 2015 - 03:59 AM, said:

I understand your worries, but i do not share them.

First, these leaders would not have ludicrous powers. They would negotiate contracts with merc units and treaties/alliances with other factions, resolve disputes, and direct the overall strategy. Much of this, especially the coordination efforts (but negotations with mercs too, see Prussian's work to hire merc units for CSJ) have already been going on, they would just be more "official", for the overall stability of the intra and inter-faction relations as well as CW as a whole.

Favoritism and greed, you fear? Well, get a majority vote from the big unit leaders and Khan/SaKhan/Loremaster/First Prince go back home Respect must be earned anyway to have the support of most units.

OTH, that should not be easy, or it could be used merely as a political tool.

There is at least another game, Air Rivals, that has something like this. Players vote a president, vice president and "executive officer" or something like that (again, 3 is the perfect number, checks and balances but also different roles and powers). They usually hosted discussions with the unit leaders in a dedicated conference hall in each faction's city and with their imput designed tactics to use and the best times to start the big faction battles (that is one of the presidents' powers) or when to activate faction-wide bonuses earned in these battles. From what i recall, they also acted often as commanders in the field during daily smaller faction battles. They were in charge for a month and they often changed, and every player above a certain level could vote.

However, for MWO i would rather let only the leaders of units with more than X (25? 50?) members to vote, not because i want to exclude the others, but because since this is not a MMORPG, unit leaders are those more likely to know better the candidates having probably dealt with them for unit coordination etc.

I am sure it could be possible

Not saying it cant be done. i just dont put alot of trust or faith if you wanna call it, to people in this game.

[Banditman]

Some simple solutions:

1. Contract values are dynamic. So, if a faction has a large number of players / merc units already under it's banner, contract values go way down, including to zero. Contract values of zero prevent units from tagging planets. This also has a corollary effect of increasing the desirability of long term contracts. Lock in the good rates for extended periods.

2. Merc units can only hold planets for one faction at a time. They are free to move between factions at will, but upon taking a planet in the name of their new faction, all previously tagged worlds revert to the faction owner alone.

3. Make contracts actually worth something. Loyalty points are useless. They aren't a driver of contracts in any way.

4. Give merc units ratings based on their contributions to whatever faction they are working for, and let that rating affect the value of non zero contracts. This will only work if the rating is capable of decaying over time in addition to having the actions of the merc unit affect the rating.

Edited by Banditman, 07 April 2015 - 07:51 AM.

[FSxHellhoundx]

Funny mercenary companies have allot of push and pull I'm surprised the loyalist communities haven't decided to use mercenary companies to their advantage.

[Ductus Hase]

"PGI FIX THIS OR I LEAVE"!

Stop shoveling YOUR problems on PGI.

I suppose an arrangement as between Steiner and Davion or FRR and Kurita didn´t come to mind. There is your fix.

[LastKhan]

tennthefreelancer, on 07 April 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Funny mercenary companies have allot of push and pull I'm surprised the loyalist communities haven't decided to use mercenary companies to their advantage.

They have, some of the top end groups like 228th have been hired by a few factions. I mean the many reasons why FRR is gaining a ton of ground is the plethora of people joining them. That and the event.

Edited by LastKhan, 07 April 2015 - 08:51 AM.

[Khereg]

tennthefreelancer, on 07 April 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Funny mercenary companies have allot of push and pull I'm surprised the loyalist communities haven't decided to use mercenary companies to their advantage.

Who says they haven't? (and all that implies...)

[CyclonerM]

LastKhan, on 07 April 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Not saying it cant be done. i just dont put alot of trust or faith if you wanna call it, to people in this game.

Ahh, i see. Well, trust me, i have seen worse communities.. And i know some individuals i would trust as Clan Wolf Khans or even IlKhans. Or, you could step up yourself ..

[GearBoxClock]

CyclonerM, on 07 April 2015 - 03:59 AM, said:

I understand your worries, but i do not share them.

First, these leaders would not have ludicrous powers. They would negotiate contracts with merc units and treaties/alliances with other factions, resolve disputes, and direct the overall strategy. Much of this, especially the coordination efforts (but negotations with mercs too, see Prussian's work to hire merc units for CSJ) have already been going on, they would just be more "official", for the overall stability of the intra and inter-faction relations as well as CW as a whole.

Favoritism and greed, you fear? Well, get a majority vote from the big unit leaders and Khan/SaKhan/Loremaster/First Prince go back home Respect must be earned anyway to have the support of most units.

OTH, that should not be easy, or it could be used merely as a political tool.

There is at least another game, Air Rivals, that has something like this. Players vote a president, vice president and "executive officer" or something like that (again, 3 is the perfect number, checks and balances but also different roles and powers). They usually hosted discussions with the unit leaders in a dedicated conference hall in each faction's city and with their imput designed tactics to use and the best times to start the big faction battles (that is one of the presidents' powers) or when to activate faction-wide bonuses earned in these battles. From what i recall, they also acted often as commanders in the field during daily smaller faction battles. They were in charge for a month and they often changed, and every player above a certain level could vote.

However, for MWO i would rather let only the leaders of units with more than X (25? 50?) members to vote, not because i want to exclude the others, but because since this is not a MMORPG, unit leaders are those more likely to know better the candidates having probably dealt with them for unit coordination etc.

I am sure it could be possible

PGI will never do this because it's not something that anyone besides a small minority of grognards would ever want.

[Xeraphale]

Aside from the fact that mercenaries should be hired to attack specific targets laid down by the employer, there is the issue of loyalty as determined by PGI.

Loyalty points are gained by fighting for a faction, however mercs will bounce around trying to gain as many loyalty points from different factions to get paid c-bills. So, really to get more loyalty points the mercs are being disloyal. Very disloyal!

Ideally, I would like to see the number of merc players dropping so that they do not have the same level of impact on CW as any of the factions do, but I doubt that can happen as players are free to join mercs as they see fit. In fact, I would like to see the numbers in each faction levelled out in some way, but that won't happen either.

It seems to me that the merc units should gain loyalty points at a reduced rate and lose loyalty at, say 10% from all other factions at the rate they earn it from the faction they currently fight for. Also, we should see something extra for those people who tie themselves to a permanent contract with a faction.

i would suggest that there are extra tiers of gains at the higher levels for permanent contracted players which are unattainable for mercs, while at the same time mercs should be paid extra for their service directly by the houses who employ them. I have a feeling that this would have a naturally balancing effect on the number of merc players anyway. Only the most notorious mercs would gain employment which is probably how it should be.

[Alexander Steel]

Quote

The entire Clan Wolf and Ghost Bear war was simply over merc units (which we thought were hired directly by CGBI) attacking our worlds, and units like CWDG and CWI responding by taking them back. Needless to say, these misunderstandings were sorted, but eventually resolved after talking with the mercenary leaders, and the attack algorithm was... "fixed".

This comment amuses me because it suggests that all of the top Clan Wolf people couldn't read because how the system worked was clearly spelled out in the notes. There is nothing in the game that would have allowed CGBI to hire merc units.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 08 April 2015 - 04:03 AM.

[Mangonel TwoSix]

Crottykid16, on 05 April 2015 - 12:34 PM, said:

No....limit the and impact they have....when mercs and mercs ALONE control the factions ground gains....there is something REALLY wrong....MErcs are fine....but they should only make up a small % of the player base a very small %....thus negating their impacts on the CW map....

Why should Mercs make up a small percentage of the playerbase? Mercs do not control where a faction goes, an algorithm does (and occasionally Paul redirects the attack lane manually).

Why should anyone be forced into being a loyalist unit? There is already a system out there that lets players choose what they want. If you want those rank 12+ rewards you go loyalist. If you like to keep your options open and sign up for contracts with various groups, then you can do that too.

If you want more players in your chosen faction, go out and recruit some.

I would like to see some more depth and a reason to play one faction over another. That would be cool. However what the game does not need is the fun police coming in and declaring that only loyalist can have to "good rewards" and you mercs just get the scraps.

[Pz_DC]

Sorry but i've not read all text above, but have to say few things about mercs and so on.
1)Mercs should be different faction then great houses, clans and so on with its own loyality rewards etc.
2)Players alligned to a faction should be forced to join determined units - we shell have no way to make our own units, unilke mercs. Devs just cant give it away becouse it will result in chaos /like it is now/.
3)10 or higher ranks should be available only for players, who got "endless contracts".

Edited by MGA121285, 08 April 2015 - 05:01 AM.

[Koniving]

Nightmare1, on 05 April 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

Seriously though, if CW ever becomes like it was initially described in the Launch Vid below, then no one would be able to whine about anything.

100% agreed; no one could complain if it went like the design there.

I'm actually very disappointed that with the current design of CW, it would be impossible to implement quite a bit of that design.

Furthermore the difference between a "Loyalist" and a "Mercenary" is clearly that a "Loyalist" is a "Mercenary" that signed up "Forever." There is no difference.

Anyone remember the original concept? Faction members would be fighting in the Inner Sphere among themselves while the Merc Groups would be along the periphery (borders, edges) of the Inner Sphere, bidding for planets while the Clans issue their Batchalls to try and take over the universe starting with periphery planets (in other words, starting against organized merc groups)?

I miss that.

Another design thought under first link of my signature -- written before we got CW, based on all the CW information we were given up and including the Launch Party.

Edited by Koniving, 08 April 2015 - 05:15 AM.