123 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Kiiyor, on 05 April 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

It's not a better mech than the MadCat. It's just better than the MadCat at one particular thing.

In Pugland, it's not nearly as good. A Dire will eat it alive.

This weekend, I was banging off some cbills in Pugsylvania, and this was tremendously apparent. Lots of 6LL stalkers around, and while they are quite handy in CW... In my Direwolf, they're a deathtrap. They're slow, ungainly, and require a lot of face time to do decent but not outstanding damage. Must importantly, they require a lot of face time. If they alpha, they hurt.... and are too hot to do much else. If they fire pairs, they need a lot of face time... either way, they get crushed.

In PUG's, maps are small enough that you can close the distance under cover, and in a brawl these are just a joke.

[Wintersdark]

---

With that said, Russ has said at the end of that discussion that he's considering raising the Ghost Heat penalty for 4+ LL's fired to the same penalty Clan's suffer firing 3 (so they gain 4 heat instead of 2.8 heat for the 4th LL fired).

That's fairly reasonable, when all things are said and done. I personally detest ghost heat and would rather it just be left be, but at least:

A> The stalker isn't getting nerfed, and
B> The much neglected LL isn't getting nerfed in normal usage.

Lots of 3E mechs really benefit from having 3LL available without ghost heat, and that's important for helping IS compete in the Laser game. They're still worse than Clan's with mid-range lasers, but are at least a little bit closer right now.

Edited by Wintersdark, 05 April 2015 - 07:53 PM.

[Sorbic]

It's because of the same kind of folk who cry to have the DW nerfed because it has massive firepower while ignoring the fact it's slow as molasses and easily outmaneuvered by rival mechs. They just focus on one thing and ignore everything else. It's like they forget that getting up close and personal with a hot 4N ruins it's day. Hell, I'll beat them down with my Garg when I get close.

I disagree that the CERLL GH needs bumped to 3 although I do think it needs a tenth shaved off it's burn time. 1.5 is just silly.

[Elizander]

Kushko, on 05 April 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

Reading up on Russes twitter he's really preoccupied with the 3LL with no ghost heat and the Stalker-4N being and i quote a "touch overdone".

Apparently a 4N firing 6 LL at once is too much (54 damage alpha and putting you at roughly 75% heat), but im not really sure why that is since i can do the same thing in a DireWolf but do double the damage with a bit less heat. And before you say that the DW is a 100tonner, i can get the same or better results in most heavy/assault clan mechs and IS ones as well.

So why is it that Russ and some of the community are making such a fuss about the "dreaded" 54 damage alpha stalker that cant do a second alpha on cooldown without overheating?

Damagewise, a stormscrow can do what a Stalker does in terms of alpha and heat. The only issue would be that they'd be 200m less on range due to the use of CERML.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 05 April 2015 - 07:52 PM, said:

---

With that said, Russ has said at the end of that discussion that he's considering raising the Ghost Heat penalty for 4+ LL's fired to the same penalty Clan's suffer firing 3 (so they gain 4 heat instead of 2.8 heat for the 4th LL fired).

That's fairly reasonable, when all things are said and done. I personally detest ghost heat and would rather it just be left be, but at least:

A> The stalker isn't getting nerfed, and
B> The much neglected LL isn't getting nerfed in normal usage.

Lots of 3E mechs really benefit from having 3LL available without ghost heat, and that's important for helping IS compete in the Laser game. They're still worse than Clan's with mid-range lasers, but are at least a little bit closer right now.

Unfortunately Russ still doesn't seem to understand all of the aspects.


Because my Warhawk load can fire all 4x CLPLs, and hit's a lower heat percentage than the STK-4N does firing all 6 even though it has -20% heat gen and 20 DHS.


He wants to set the 9 damage LLAS at the same rate as a weapon that does around 45% extra damage?

That doesn't make sense.

3x CLPLs is 39 damage.
3x LLAS is 27 damage.
4x LLAS is 36 damage.

Pretty large discrepancy there.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 05 April 2015 - 09:15 PM.

[Kiiyor]

Elizander, on 05 April 2015 - 09:01 PM, said:

Damagewise, a stormscrow can do what a Stalker does in terms of alpha and heat. The only issue would be that they'd be 200m less on range due to the use of CERML.

Yep. I think the mobility of the Crow more than makes up for the range difference though, at least it does for me.

[MrZakalwe]

Elizander, on 05 April 2015 - 09:01 PM, said:

Damagewise, a stormscrow can do what a Stalker does in terms of alpha and heat. The only issue would be that they'd be 200m less on range due to the use of CERML.

The Stormcrow needs to reveal more of itself and has less armour to soak up return fire. In normal queues this aint so significant but in CW the 4N is an absolute powerhouse and my lost love; it'[s like having my 5 PPC Stalker back from before Ghost Heat

Edited by MrZakalwe, 05 April 2015 - 10:27 PM.

[Elizander]

MrZakalwe, on 05 April 2015 - 10:25 PM, said:

The Stormcrow needs to reveal more of itself and has less armour to soak up return fire. In normal queues this aint so significant but in CW the 4N is an absolute powerhouse and my lost love; it'[s like having my 5 PPC Stalker back from before Ghost Heat

SCR is also fast enough to duck behind cover though and it is 30 tons lighter. We can't bring 3 Stalkers but the enemy can bring 3-4 Stormcrows.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimatum X, on 05 April 2015 - 09:14 PM, said:

Unfortunately Russ still doesn't seem to understand all of the aspects.


Because my Warhawk load can fire all 4x CLPLs, and hit's a lower heat percentage than the STK-4N does firing all 6 even though it has -20% heat gen and 20 DHS.

Yeah, but this isn't an IS vs. Clan issue. Other things should happen to bring that balance Into line, but definitely not making weapons all nice and samey.

Quote

He wants to set the 9 damage LLAS at the same rate as a weapon that does around 45% extra damage?

That doesn't make sense.

3x CLPLs is 39 damage.
3x LLAS is 27 damage.
4x LLAS is 36 damage.

Pretty large discrepancy there.

The same GHOST HEAT penalty. Not the same heat overall. Just fire 3 and 3 and the change doesn't impact you at all.

[Wintersdark]

After all, 4 LL is 33.88 heat, 4 cLPL is 59.2. (Pre quirks)

Ghost heat penalties scale exponentially with number of weapons alpha'd. That's the only reason your 6LL alpha is so high.

While the cLPL is the closest analogue to the LL, they are not the same weapon at all. The LPL does more damage, but at far more heat, and is heavier as well.

[Wintersdark]

Just to be clear: I do not think the stalker should be nerfed, or the large laser. Russ is basically pushing ghost heat against high single weapon type alphas. I don't like ghost heat either, but thems the breaks. The penalty he proposes hurts IS far led than directly reducing the LL limit or nerfing the stalker.

[anonymous161]

None of the clan mechs can peek like the IS mechs can which the use to great effect in the stupid cw portion of the game. The maps are so biased against clan design, a bunch of narrow areas, not big enough to be able to effectively use are long range lasers which dont really feel like they do hardly any more range or damage than IS variant.

I say take that disaster of a nerf of the clans back, maybe not all the way but a good portion of our range and fire power lower the duration time farther and give us a little more range so that I feel like my larg laser is actually better than IS variant but only if they let me use it that way.

[Virgil Greyson]

My hunchback eats them for breakfast, not sure what the big deal is. Close ground using cover with your team, thing can't turn for ****. It is an easy kill once you close the gap. Having a peek battle with one though, forget about it. Its almost like the mech does something incredibly well and has a weakness that can be exploited, nerf immediately this is to intense for me.

Edited by Virgil Greyson, 05 April 2015 - 11:29 PM.

[Averen]

Wintersdark, on 05 April 2015 - 11:20 PM, said:

The LPL does more damage, but at far more heat, and is heavier as well.

Nope. The LPL is as heat efficient as a large laser (or a minimum more). It's also not heavier, since 2CLPL=3LL, which is now correctly reflected by ghost heat.

Also, where does the talk about alphaing coming from? It's not that hard to wait half a second and then start the 2nd salvo. That will bring a STK-4N to 36 instead of 72% heat, or the Warhawk to 30%.

Edited by Averen, 05 April 2015 - 11:52 PM.

[nitra]

why ? the only threat the build poses is to stationary or slow bull charging mechs.

built one of these a few months ago only thing i was wrecking was stationary mechs trying to do the same thing with different weapons.

and whats really interesting is that i was in a fire fight with a erll raven with this build and the raven was working me over. you know why ? because it had mobillity.


so please lets not encourage more sand bagging do not increase any more ghost heat .

if your getting hammered by this build then move . problem solved.

[kapusta11]

Because clans is a P2W faction. I hope you've already bought Cauldron Born (10 tons lighter Timberwolf) and Arctic Cheetah (5 tons lighter Firestarter with ECM)!

TDR 9s comes close to rival clans - nerfed
Wubverine? - nerfed
4N? - most likelly it will be nerfed as well

Timberwolf:
75T
89.1 kph + JJs + good hitboxes
2xLPL+4xERML - 54 damage alpha
44 heat per alpha
4.55 heat dissipation

Stalker:
85T, slightly higher armor
63.9 kph + good hitboxes
6xLL - 54 damage
33.6 heat per alpha fired in 3x2 mode (double facetime) or 54.8 heat for normal alpha
3.75 heat dissipation
Quirked LLs have 140 m higher range than CERML without TC but CLPL has 75 m higher range than ISLL so the advantage is very slim and very situational.

Now how is Stalker OP?! It's slow AND require double facetime to apply its damage OR, if you choose, it's straight up hotter than any clan mech when firing all weapons at once.

Edited by kapusta11, 06 April 2015 - 12:55 AM.

[nitra]

kapusta11, on 06 April 2015 - 12:09 AM, said:

Because clans is a P2W faction. I hope you've already bought Cauldron Born (10 tons lighter Timberwolf) and Arctic Cheetah (5 tons lighter Firestarter with ECM)!

TDR 9s comes close to rival clans - nerfed
Wubverine? - nerfed
4N? - most likelly it will be nerfed as well

Timberwolf:
75T
89.1 kph + JJs + good hitboxes
2xLPL+4xERML - 54 damage alpha
44 heat per alpha
4.55 heat dissipation

Stalker:
85T, slightly higher armor
63.9 kph + good hitboxes
6xLL - 54 damage
33.6 heat per alpha fired in 3x2 mode (double facetime) or 54.8 heat for normal alpha
3.75 heat dissipation
100 m higher range than CERML but CLPL has 120 m higher range than ISLL.

Now how is Stalker OP?! It's slow AND require double facetime to apply its damage OR, if you choose, it's straight up hotter than any clan mech when firing all weapons at once.

can you get that into 140 some odd characters so russ will read it ?

[Wintersdark]

Averen, on 05 April 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

Nope. The LPL is as heat efficient as a large laser (or a minimum more). It's also not heavier, since 2CLPL=3LL, which is now correctly reflected by ghost heat.

Also, where does the talk about alphaing coming from? It's not that hard to wait half a second and then start the 2nd salvo. That will bring a STK-4N to 36 instead of 72% heat, or the Warhawk to 30%.

Alphaing is the whole point. The change Russ is making only impacts alpha striking with 4+LL's. He's not changing base LL stats nor the Stalker's quirks.

There are all these tears like this is the death of the Inner Sphere, but let's not forget:

53:47 win ratio for Clans means balance is very damn close, particularly considering IS is weighed down by a larger number of new and (as a result) comparably bad players.

This change isn't going to alter that, because offsetting firing groups by half a second isn't the end of the world.

[Insects]

Wintersdark, on 05 April 2015 - 07:52 PM, said:

That's fairly reasonable, when all things are said and done. I personally detest ghost heat and would rather it just be left be, but at least:

Not really, everyone was happy to see the ghost heat mechanic being wound back.
Now a 12 man fielding 6xLL Stalkers stomped Russ's green bird CW team so the tactic must be crushed.

Bigger problem is full teams of synchronized mechs, be it Thunderbolts or Stalkers or Stormcrows or lights.
The entire team form one big Voltron type robot and overwhelm the opposition with one style of attack.
Perhaps look to stop that, kill the light rush at the same time.

[kapusta11]

Wintersdark, on 06 April 2015 - 01:19 AM, said:

offsetting firing groups by half a second isn't the end of the world.

How about we cap laser vomit at 30 damage for clan mechs as well so that only 2xERML+1xLPL can be fired at once? 0.5 sec delay, no big deal right?

You're taking out of equation burn duration, Timberwolf can start torso twisting/bunny hopping before Stalker can fire all its weapons, only half in fact.

Edited by kapusta11, 06 April 2015 - 01:48 AM.