123 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Ultimatum X, on 06 April 2015 - 07:06 AM, said:

I hate brevity!







I think ERLLAS are very debatable.

9 damage, 1.25s burn, 675m? That becomes a better weapon with quirks but clan mechs have two clear solid options - a CLPL that can hit 660m with mod or CERLLAS for really extreme ranges and lighter weight (and head slot slotting which is pretty crazy, really).

The cLPL gets compared to the LL legitimately, but not to the ERLL. The ERLL can have a range mod too, if you feel so inclined, and works out to substantially longer range. It's still simply superior as an extended range weapon, simply because practically every IS mech can quirk it to be flat out better than the cERLL.

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PPCs are all a mess right now, and I'm not loading 7 ton weapons with a 90m deadzone in the current face-rush gameplay.

Except on mechs with PPC quirks. Still dangerous with the deadzone, but mechs with velocity quirks still can make good use of them. Sadly, everyone's ERPPC's are junk. I miss PPC's.

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I think people over-glamorize IS ballistics. The AC 20 is the big boy here.

I'd mount IS AC5's, UAC5's, and AC20's on my Clan mechs given the opportunity; and I'd do so with such joy I'd sell every single garbage clan AC I own the moment I could. AC2's and AC10's are both kinda crappy, 2's because obviously, and 10's because 20's are so much better for a tiny increase in cost, and 5's are much cooler, lighter, faster, and better ranged.

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I'm trying to figure out what clan mech you can't fit a Gauss on that is over 50 tons.

SCR, HBR, SMN, TBR, GAR, WHK, DWF can all run Gauss builds. The Mad Dog can too but I think it's a bad platform for it.

I didn't say you couldn't. I meant that virtually any IS mech that CAN mount a gauss rifle will result in a Gauss rifle with better stats. Massively better stats in some cases, but 10% cooldown is very typical, and that's a significant improvement.

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That isn't the point.

It's absolutely the point. If Clans vs. IS are overall pretty balanced, then you can't really complain because one faction has better weapons in a specific circumstance (mid range lasers), when the other faction has better weapons in other specific circumstances. Clearly, they balance out, or Clan's would still be winning a lot more matches.

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The point is that 4x LLAS is right around even vs. 3x CLPLs, it doesn't need a higher ghost heat mod.

When you throw CERMLAS in the picture and the fact the IS has literally NO answer for that weapon, increasing GH on LLAS is just pure crazy talk.

Won't hurt it significantly either. Remember, from the start I've been against any change to it, but I'm just saying the GH increase on the alpha of 6 isn't really a big deal.

I hate ghost heat, and would sooner see it stripped out completely. But, that's not going to happen, and Russ wants to keep using it specifically to help curtail boating. I agree completely with all the issues people have with that statement, but that's how it is.

[reign]

Asrrin, on 06 April 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

I'm glad you have this position, I'm just ranting because the people who brought it originally to Russ' attention where a bunch of butthurt clanners that were complaining it was out trading the timberwolf. And it always seems like a small cadre of the same players constantly pestering Russ on twitter about nerfing IS and buffing clans despite evidence to the contrary.

Nope he was playing jade falcon last week and got his face melted by them. Read his twitteR.

[Kalimaster]

As a pilot of a Stalker 4N, I like the Mech, but I also don't have 6 larger lasers placed into it. I only use 2 for my build. As is I have to be careful not to overheat as this has caused my downfall in several matches when using this Mech. It is a good Mech, and from my perspective, I think they should leave it alone. I think that most Mechs could stand a bit of a buff instead of always trying to take something away from them in an effort to make them better.

[Ultimax]

Just as a follow up:



You can just fit 21 DHS with 4x LLAS and a good STD engine on a Zeus, end up with 36 damage at 450-500m with a 30ton 325 STD engine.

Then people have this collective myopia about the Gargoyle, where I can run 42 damage from 6x CERMLAS at 400m, 31 DHS, 400 engine size that only weighs 3 tons more.


And we need MORE ghost heat on the 4x LLAS?


The idea is laughable.



http://mwo.smurfy-ne...624cbc93a1d45ac

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2921eae910d0a08











What do we get on the forums?

People slag off the Gargoyle, say how bad it is.

Some of the same people say they love the Zeus.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 April 2015 - 07:36 AM.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 06 April 2015 - 07:18 AM, said:

It's absolutely the point. If Clans vs. IS are overall pretty balanced, then you can't really complain because one faction has better weapons in a specific circumstance (mid range lasers), when the other faction has better weapons in other specific circumstances.

We're not there yet.

Not with half weight SRMs, 12 ton Gauss, across the board superior lasers.


Watch some RHoD. Teams bring the best clan mechs using clan lasers, not quirked IS mechs because they are outright inferior - barring light mechs (which will soon end as well).

[Big Tin Man]

Ultimatum X, on 06 April 2015 - 07:38 AM, said:

barring light mechs (which will soon end as well).

Yup. The stalker 4N issue is a CW meta issue. The 80/80/xx/xx dropdeck leave a lot of great options for the IS, with lots of suppressing laser vomit. Couple this with the fact that clans at the moment have garbage light mechs (likely to change with wave 3).

Go run some normal non-CW matches and you'll see that the 4N is just fine as is. It's still a stalker. Slow, can't turn, can't twist. It is fine where it is. It is a good CW mech, and can be tough when faced in large number. So can 12 timmies on a firing line, or worse, on a all out push.

[Gas Guzzler]

Unfortunately upping the heat penalty at 4 lasers hurts the Wolverine, the Battlemaster, and others severely. Why not up the penalty at 5+?? Still can't alpha the 4N so it fixes that "issue".

[Kuritaclan]

Ultimatum X, on 06 April 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

And why exactly should a claner bring the GAR-D in this config, when he has a 75t TBR what does exactly the same with the same speedo, same over all armor and nearly the same heat dissipation?

For the lulz i fit in a TC1, humm 9t unspend (10t without the TC1), tells me this isn't optimized, so why should this loadout on a 5t bigger mech be more optimal? And the best part of it you would like ith 6ErML rip out Endo or FF on the Timber to get in 3 more DHS.

Such comparissions just make no sense. At least not when the Zeus has PPC Quirks what are slightly get wasted with this kind of loadout. And not when the GAR is just a waste of Dropdeck Tonnage.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 06 April 2015 - 08:31 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kuritaclan, on 06 April 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

And why exactly should a claner bring the GAR-D in this config, when he has a 75t TBR what does exactly the same with the same speedo, same over all armor and nearly the same heat dissipation?

For the lulz i fit in a TC1, humm 9t unspend (10t without the TC1), tells me this isn't optimized, so why should this loadout on a 5t bigger mech be more optimal? And the best part of it you would like ith 6ErML rip out Endo or FF on the Timber to get in 3 more DHS.

Such comparissions just make no sense. At least not when the Zeus has PPC Quirks what are slightly get wasted with this kind of loadout. And not when the GAR is just a waste of Dropdeck Tonnage.

Your argument that a Mech 5 tons lighter does the same thing better, or just a better loadout better doesn't actually support your argument.

Also, PPCs are garbage. Range quirks alone are also not very useful for PPCs either without velocity quirks. We are talking about laser builds here anyway, to show how not OP 4 LLs are.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 06 April 2015 - 09:01 AM.

[reign]

Here is the thing, No one wants their toys taken away. And from what I understand no one is getting their toys taken away.

The only proposed change on the board is as follows. 4 IS large lasers fired now generate 4 ghost heat instead of 2.8.

OMG THE HUGEMANITY!!!! the world is going to end.

And it was not a bunch of whiny clanners barking at Russ to make this change, It was the man himself getting his face and I quote "Quite Often" alpha by 6 large laser stalker 4N. During the last week of playing Jade falcon.

as he said 3/3 is cool 6 is not.

End of story.

[Kuritaclan]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 April 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

Your argument that a Mech 5 tons lighter does the same thing better, or just a better loadout better doesn't actually support your argument.

Also, PPCs are garbage. Range quirks alone are also not very useful for PPCs either without velocity quirks. We are talking about laser builds here anyway, to show how not OP 4 LLs are.

By any mean, if I can use the 5t for another mech in my dropdeck to up the overall value of the drop deck, than for sure this argument stay true. The point is, the 5t spend in the drop Deck actually been not worth the firepower you bring to the battle nor the armor, since speed is equal. Hell you can fit in jump jets with add value on the Timber and just have tonnes of loadout left open not utilized - The Zeus has half his loadout unspend to make it the 4LL way. It is ok, but why should you bring those mech, if you can have a WVR 6k with 4 LL more agility/speed+better quirks for LLs and roughly a light mech worth of dropdeck weight to spend into other mechs or the STK 4N with its high mounts. Comparing suboptimal loadouts in mechs which are not that impressiv (because quirks do not support it) to fit into such a load is carrying coals to Newcastle.

[Astrocanis]

reign, on 06 April 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

Here is the thing, No one wants their toys taken away. And from what I understand no one is getting their toys taken away.

The only proposed change on the board is as follows. 4 IS large lasers fired now generate 4 ghost heat instead of 2.8.

OMG THE HUGEMANITY!!!! the world is going to end.

And it was not a bunch of whiny clanners barking at Russ to make this change, It was the man himself getting his face and I quote "Quite Often" alpha by 6 large laser stalker 4N. During the last week of playing Jade falcon.

as he said 3/3 is cool 6 is not.

End of story.

In other words, His Sacred Cow took a nose dive and, because he is obviously superior, getting his "face melted" is bad and should never happen. Particularly more than once.

Getting alpha'ed by a Whale is OK, but no face melting allowed from IS?

Or am I reading what you wrote incorrectly?

Edit* And yes, I would say that a 42% increase in heat penalty is rather large. If I am stupid enough to alpha with all 6 of mine, my heat spikes from 5% to 77%. This increase will basically render the 6LL 4N totally obsolete.

Edited by Astrocanis, 06 April 2015 - 10:18 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

reign, on 06 April 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

Here is the thing, No one wants their toys taken away. And from what I understand no one is getting their toys taken away.

The only proposed change on the board is as follows. 4 IS large lasers fired now generate 4 ghost heat instead of 2.8.

OMG THE HUGEMANITY!!!! the world is going to end.

And it was not a bunch of whiny clanners barking at Russ to make this change, It was the man himself getting his face and I quote "Quite Often" alpha by 6 large laser stalker 4N. During the last week of playing Jade falcon.

as he said 3/3 is cool 6 is not.

End of story.

Well just because 6 isn't cool doesn't mean 4 isn't cool does it?

Honestly I don't like using the stalker that much, I take it here and there but I like other mechs more just because they are more fun. I just don't understand why 4 is such a problem. Could stop the 6 just by upping ghost heat at 5+ and leaving 4 alone. There is still a heat penalty its just not as large.

Kuritaclan, on 06 April 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

By any mean, if I can use the 5t for another mech in my dropdeck to up the overall value of the drop deck, than for sure this argument stay true. The point is, the 5t spend in the drop Deck actually been not worth the firepower you bring to the battle nor the armor, since speed is equal. Hell you can fit in jump jets with add value on the Timber and just have tonnes of loadout left open not utilized - The Zeus has half his loadout unspend to make it the 4LL way. It is ok, but why should you bring those mech, if you can have a WVR 6k with 4 LL more agility/speed+better quirks for LLs and roughly a light mech worth of dropdeck weight to spend into other mechs or the STK 4N with its high mounts. Comparing suboptimal loadouts in mechs which are not that impressiv (because quirks do not support it) to fit into such a load is carrying coals to Newcastle.

I suppose, I guess the more important point was that 6 c ER MLs is more versatile than 4 LLs (what is getting nerfed), not the specific builds themselves. Maybe that is what he was trying to emphasize.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 April 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

Well just because 6 isn't cool doesn't mean 4 isn't cool does it?

Honestly I don't like using the stalker that much, I take it here and there but I like other mechs more just because they are more fun. I just don't understand why 4 is such a problem. Could stop the 6 just by upping ghost heat at 5+ and leaving 4 alone. There is still a heat penalty its just not as large.



I suppose, I guess the more important point was that 6 c ER MLs is more versatile than 4 LLs (what is getting nerfed), not the specific builds themselves. Maybe that is what he was trying to emphasize.

That would require making 4 LLs without ghost heat, since the multiplier is a universal thing, not a progressive thing. You can't have 2.8 for 4 and 4 for 5.

At least, from PGI's history, I'll assume you can't.

[Kuritaclan]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 April 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

I suppose, I guess the more important point was that 6 c ER MLs is more versatile than 4 LLs (what is getting nerfed), not the specific builds themselves. Maybe that is what he was trying to emphasize.

Versetail humm. The C-ErML are the bread and butter weapons for clans. And since those do a outstanding job compared to other clan weapons all others are nerfed into oblivion by secondary features (beam duration, spread) not to mention that first features like damage, heat and cooldown do also sit in a sweatspot with this weapon for most combats where you can chose the place and pace. So what was the comparission about. I didn't get it. Not to mention that the chassi choice (with those loadouts) were nothing to select for a well rounded drop deck. So i send Mr Timber into the ring, and he was not impressed by what he saw.

The thread is about the stalker 4N and if or if not he is up to a nerf for this option of LL loadout. I have no real opinion on this matter. I think the 4N is better in the Hardpoint department and therefore it suits the roll that pretty over many other mechs. This is nothing to fix by changing how LLs work nor does it could be fixed with quirks that easy, because they do not change hardpoint location "oO".

Edited by Kuritaclan, 06 April 2015 - 10:45 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kuritaclan, on 06 April 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

Versetail humm. The C-ErML are the bread and butter weapons for clans. And since those do a outstanding job compared to other clan weapons all others are nerfed into oblivion by secondary features (beam duration, spread) not to mention that first features like damage, heat and cooldown do also sit in a sweatspot with this weapon for most combats where you can chose the place and pace. So what was the comparission about. I didn't get it. Not to mention that the chassi choice (with those loadouts) were nothing to select for a well rounded drop deck. So i send Mr Timber into the ring, and he was not impressed by what he saw.

The thread is about the stalker 4N and if or if not he is up to a nerf for this option of LL loadout. I have no real opinion on this matter. I think the 4N is better in the Hardpoint department and therefore it suits the roll that pretty over many other mechs. This is nothing to fix by changing how LLs work nor does it could be fixed with quirks that easy, because they do not change hardpoint location "oO".

His point was, 4 Large Lasers don't need some huge heat penalty if 6 c ER MLs don't need one. If you look at the specs of each, it makes sense.

This thread is about the Stalker-4N, but Russ's proposed fix is to increase ghost heat for Large Lasers. So groups of 4+ of large lasers would incur more ghost heat. He is actually not talking about messing with the Stalker-4N in particular, but that was the mech that is making him want to make that change.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 06 April 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

That would require making 4 LLs without ghost heat, since the multiplier is a universal thing, not a progressive thing. You can't have 2.8 for 4 and 4 for 5.

At least, from PGI's history, I'll assume you can't.

Really? I thought they decided each one, because large lasers when they had ghost heat on 3, would only produce an extra like 3 heat which was pretty minor, and then the 4th would have more of a penalty.

If that is not the case, then that sucks, but I mean 4 LLs isn't that powerful and is a 20 ton loadout.

Frankly, one time alphas of 54 damage that get to 70+% heat is not that OP. Timbers do it with much less heat and a whopping 0.15 second duration increase. But some people disagree so its unfortunate that a perfectly reasonably alpha of 36 damage is going to suffer as a result of this.

[Kuritaclan]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 April 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

His point was, 4 Large Lasers don't need some huge heat penalty if 6 c ER MLs don't need one. If you look at the specs of each, it makes sense.

This thread is about the Stalker-4N, but Russ's proposed fix is to increase ghost heat for Large Lasers. So groups of 4+ of large lasers would incur more ghost heat. He is actually not talking about messing with the Stalker-4N in particular, but that was the mech that is making him want to make that change.

Well if this is his idea, then screw up all weapons to not be used with more than 4 of them at once. MAybee this will help, when new players jump into a nova and fire first time 12 lasers xD. Idk how to handle his problem. with 6 C-ErML. Maybee the real Problem is clans don't have weapon steps in between like normal Medium Lasers and normal Large Lasers, and therefore the Er have to cover their busniss too. What make them kinda hard to bring in line without making them op or up.

Gas Guzzler, on 06 April 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

Frankly, one time alphas of 54 damage that get to 70+% heat is not that OP. Timbers do it with much less heat and a whopping 0.15 second duration increase. But some people disagree so its unfortunate that a perfectly reasonably alpha of 36 damage is going to suffer as a result of this.

Not essentlially - they are near each other under 440m range, but at the optimal range for the Stalker the Timber has suffered 8 Points damage while the 4N has the full 54 damage left to work with in the case of alpha. Anyhow not that complainable if you factor in the 5 mroe tons weight.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 06 April 2015 - 11:17 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kuritaclan, on 06 April 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

Well if this is his idea, then screw up all weapons to not be used with more than 4 of them at once. MAybee this will help, when new players jump into a nova and fire first time 12 lasers xD. Idk how to handle his problem. with 6 C-ErML. Maybee the real Problem is clans don't have weapon steps in between like normal Medium Lasers and normal Large Lasers, and therefore the Er have to cover their busniss too. What make them kinda hard to bring in line without making them op or up.

Well... 4 Large Lasers isn't that powerful which is why I think it shouldn't be penalized further.

I also am not asking for cERML nerfs. I understand clans don't have a cooler, close range substitute. IS also does not have a hotter ER substitute, which would help a lot if they did.

I don't know, if the problem is with 6 LL, I don't think they should start by wrecking the quad LL builds.

[Kuritaclan]

Gas Guzzler, on 06 April 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

I don't know, if the problem is with 6 LL, I don't think they should start by wrecking the quad LL builds.

It is not that much the quad LL usage that bothers me, but the group they are in (an pgi can only fix this?) - or better to look at the usage of 4 C-ErLL vs 4 IS-ErLL (pimped by quirks). Those are actually more concerning than the LL thing Russ is in witchhunting now. However the IS-ErLL have to be fixed before moaning about them so they do damage to the full track they can reach.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 06 April 2015 - 11:27 AM.