16 replies to this topic

[Telmasa]

Short, sweet, simple? Kinda.

I want to prove this mech isn't terribad; that with creative tactics and careful work in the mechlab, it can perform just as well as any mech (before quirks...) without resorting to "metamech"-style 'sword and shield' gimmickry.

**edit**: Personal review: doesn't fare so well
2xLBX5, 4xERSL
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cebbb1d692233a1
Mainly tried take advantage of the high ballistic hardpoints.

1xLPL, 2xERML, 1xLRM20A
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5cf8e2a4a8de062
Clearly follow-the-pack support role - LRM20A for distance & shooting over teammate's shoulders, CERML & LPL for mid range; getting into a brawl isn't the plan unless the enemy has cored out sections already for the CERMLs to finish off. Not very spectacular or special in any way, but offers solid performance. You can switch from the LPL to 2xERML+more heatsinks if that's more your flavor.

**edit**: Personal review: difficult to manage, torso doesn't move fast enough, mech is a tad slow, ammo crits are a problem
Boomstick: 1xUAC/20, 4xSPL
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7e61b07699bf202

~~edit~~: Personal review: works great!
2xERLL, 2xSSRM6
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d6736963a80f7b1
This one is an accidental discovery, roughly based on my Warhawk (4xERLL, 2xSSRM6).
While the low arm hardpoints don't favor hill-peeking, it does favor cornerpoking; and with the help of the JJ, you can find some creative spots that allow you to cornerpoke at range. The 2xSSRM6, meanwhile, give you a very mean punch against any lights who come sniffing around (and are a very rude surprise from around a corner).
A variations on this could probably use regular SRMs instead (giving you a hefty brawler's punch), and add a targeting computer mk1 with the extra ton (making the cERLLs that much more dangerous). (I probably should put the lasers on the right arm and the SRMs on the other arm, though.)

**edit**: ehh...does alright, not amazing. As expected the arm lasers are a little hard to manage if you're high up, it's better to corner-poke.
Wubs2Brawl: 2xAMS,1xSSRM6, 4xMPL
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e047695f2be8196
Here, I was looking to make the AMS viable with a build that can brawl and do surprise hit-and-runs with the help of the JJ. Not as much punch as the UAC/20 build from earlier, but easier to handle.

~~edit~~: Personal review: Personal Favorite! Works out fantastically. If I wasn't already committed to a dual-gauss Dire Wolf, this is definitely the one I'd pick.
70-ton version of the 'Gausshawk': 1xGauss Rifle, 4xERML
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...deb2446213a8814
This one is interesting because the rifle is mounted *right* below the cockpit - so it's super easy to aim, and it's very easy to hill-poke with, and with the JJ you can find some very creative locations.
Downside of course is if it explodes, your torso is gone, but you shouldn't be exposing yourself very long while playing this and thus hopefully won't get cored easily.
5 tons of Gauss ammo is enough to "carryhard" with & play in CW - you can probably drop one or two tons for target computers/heatsinks of you like, without much of a problem.

I'm trying to come up with something that works with ERPPCs...I've got two ideas that I'm just not sure about.
1xERPPC, 1xLBX10
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4d0e7dabf06d03c
Abysmal alpha, but the ERPPC & LBX10's travel speeds sync up very nicely together and you have quite a bit of longevity at a distance. *shrug*
Poptart 2xERPPC
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4c2203d9febf5fd
This one is a bit better in my view...but I feel like my 2xERPPC 4xMG Nova does it better. This probably has better cooling & benefits from AMS, but 2xMG is an afterthought at most & the hardpoints are lower and thus harder to manage, from a poptarting perspective (though as I mentioned earlier, lateral vs. vertical thinking could help).
Yeah, no way in heck the ERPPC poptart will work except as a corner-poker, which is something you can do with a mech that's half the tonnage of this one. Throwing these two in the garbage bin.


As somewhat of a joke (I'm one of those annoyed by the 'meta'):
#LASERBARFMETABRO
2xLPL 2xCERML
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...217f576058246cb
Meh. Easy-mode to use, 2 weapon groups, watch your torsos & mind the low arms.
**edit**: Personal review: So easy to use it's CRINGE-worthy. Felt very lazy and hated it despite remarkable performance. Meta-bros will probably like this build best.

_________________

So that's all I've got. Discuss!

Edited by Telmasa, 07 April 2015 - 06:06 PM.

[Bloodweaver]

Telmasa, on 05 April 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

2xLBX5, 4xERSL
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cebbb1d692233a1

This is one of the three basic builds I used to Master out two of the variants -haven't got a third variant yet, so neither of the first two have anything beyond basic unlocks. They've simply built up enough XP to bring up to Master level once I Basic out the third variant.

The other two builds?

Modified -D. Now that you can turn AMS on and off easily, you can take less ammo and still have it be a useful system. And since you'll be at range most of your combat time, there's no need for quite so much MG ammo either.

Modified -Prime. LPL is same weight as PPC, and functionally does about the same damage to the desired enemy component so long as you can keep it moderately on-target. If your aim is stable, the damage output will actually be better. The other benefits are lower heat, more opportunities to do some damage even if you can't do full damage(unlike PPCs, which are 100% or none), and, most importantly to me, the ability to move your arms sideways even with a ballistic mounted. The LB 5-X is pretty good for this as it has a nice, tight cluster even out to middling ranges, and a good refire rate which can be improved further with an LB 5-X cooldown module.

Oh, and I spent a good amount of the grind just running both variants pure stock as well

Edited by Bloodweaver, 05 April 2015 - 05:47 PM.

[InspectorG]

Best advice:

Dont use the Summoner and FORCE PGI to give it nice quirks.

PGI wont give free Endo.

And new ST pods with high E hardpoints arent likely either. People cry lore but there are non-lore mechs in MWO.

Summoner has been nerfed last quirk pass...why? PGI hates Summoners?

Only interesting quirks were the spread reduction.

AMS, Narc, MG...is this a joke?

[MonkeyCheese]

my CW summoner is 2ams 2ERLL 2ERML and a lrm15 with bap and a tc1

others are a "fun" 2ERML lb20x build and a lrm10 4srm6 build.

[Telmasa]

InspectorG, on 05 April 2015 - 06:01 PM, said:

Best advice:
Dont use the Summoner and FORCE PGI to give it nice quirks.

I'd rather force PGI to see that mechs don't actually need quirks - at least not past a certain, fixed extent.
Players just need to think out of the box.

[Telmasa]

Update:
Changing to LBX5s was not as great as I thought it might be.
The spread even on the 5s is still atrocious, and that's not enough DPS to compete anywhere except at the ranges that the spread happens to nullify.

While mounting the LBX arm for the quirks to try and mitigate this is possible, that seems too cheesy to me - mount a certain arm and suddenly the torso LBXs are more accurate & better? It's clearly not the intention here by the developers, so I'm just not going to swing that way.

I will try UAC/2s and see if that works better.

I also realized the open tonnage (with maxed armor +/- half ton) on the Summoner is only 21 tons, as opposed to:
23 on the Stormcrow
27.5 on the Timberwolf
23.5 on the Hellbringer
26 on the Vulture
Incidentally, it's only 20 on the Gargoyle. lol

So...unless you're explicity taking full advantage of the jumpjets, the Summoner is going to always be second-place.

That low open tonnage makes it a poor platform as a stand-off ballistics support, despite the high-mounted ballistic points; so if the UAC2/s end up sucking, I will try the UAC/20 & SPL brawl build. (meaning I'd have to switch up my stormcrow yet again, but that's another story)

If even that mech doesn't really work, I think I may sell it. The other builds listed here, while they work (especially the 2ERLL+2SSRM6, that one is battle-proven) fill roles/niches that I already have other mastered mechs for.
(Once upon a time, I used to have all my mechs using similar weapons...and frankly, not only does it get boring, it also begs the question, what's the point of having more than just one mech? So I try to vary it with every single mech having a unique primary function.)

[Telmasa]

Hasty update:
UAC/2s are no-go. Really seems like only way to get good use out of UAC2s/UAC5s for clanners is to mass a bunch of them (i.e. 27+ tons free space w/ minimum 2, preferably 4 ballistic hardpoints)

Not very happy with the boomstick, either, as the torso is not responsive enough to aim accurately. I'd rather have the ballistics in the arm, which negates any advantage of the high-mounted ballistics. *sigh*

Thinking I may give the 4MPL+streak6 a chance before I give up.

lol further progress:

While the 4MPL+streak6 isn't spectacular, it's given me hope.

Since I have the equipment, I'm going to test out the Gauss & "cheese" build (one game only!!!) just to offer a personal, battle-tested opinion on the two.
Which only leaves out the LRM20A build; it's frankly pretty easy to figure out, nice and 'noob friendly' as it were.

Edited by Telmasa, 07 April 2015 - 05:52 PM.

[Telmasa]

And third post today. lol

It's the last though!

I've edited the main post with my a quick piece of my thoughts, after testing the builds out some. (not a whole lot, just 2-5 battles each)

Personally I think I shall go with the MPL/streak summoner, just to be different, and switch to the Gauss build if it proves too mediocre to satisfy me.

Thus ends my theorycrafting with the Summoner!

[Flywheels]

You should give 2 ermeds 1 uac5 2srm6's and a srm4 a shot. makes for a nice brawler but can get out there for some mid range damage also.

[CygnusX7]

4mL UAC10.

[John80sk]

The funny thing about you disliking "meta" mechs is that the 4ML/Gauss build is the closest thing to a current "meta" build on the Summoner. The only other notable builds on the Summoner are the Gauss/ERPPC build, and the 5 ASRM6 build.

Disliking "meta builds" by the way is essentially saying you dislike good builds. If a build is the best build possible for a mech, then it generally becomes the meta for that mech.

[grendeldog]

John80sk, on 26 April 2015 - 03:01 AM, said:

The funny thing about you disliking "meta" mechs is that the 4ML/Gauss build is the closest thing to a current "meta" build on the Summoner. The only other notable builds on the Summoner are the Gauss/ERPPC build, and the 5 ASRM6 build.

Disliking "meta builds" by the way is essentially saying you dislike good builds. If a build is the best build possible for a mech, then it generally becomes the meta for that mech.

By saying he dislikes meta builds, I think what he may be expressing - and I feel this way as well - is that he wishes that there were a greater number of viable build types. And that requires a greater number of viable weapons.

Take the clan ACs - they weigh more, take up more space, and shoot slower (EDIT: I mean cooldown because of double-tap-ability of UACs) than the clan UACs. Their only advantage is a very slight increase in range that is of miniscule import. That's a whole four weapons that are not only not meta, they are not even viable at all. If the clan ACs did pinpoint damage with one shot but generated more heat than UACs or had less range, then there might be a discussion to be had about whether or not those tradeoffs are worth it. But as it stands there is no purpose to clan ACs.

Likewise, that lack of pinpoint damage using clan AC/UACs guarantees the supremacy of what weapons can deliver on that promise - ERPPCs and gauss. Furthermore, the lack of pinpoint ballistic damage via clan ACs ensures that clanners will want to stay at range; there are builds like the 12 ERSL Nova, but those are the rare exception and not seen on the competitive battlefield. As a result of this long-range focus, the CERLL and especially the cooldown-synchronized CERML / CLPL combo rule the clan weapon landscape.

Finally, the design of the Gargoyle, Summoner, Nova, Ice Ferret, etc. is such that they lack potentially competitive builds - to say nothing of clan lights. The only reason people add Hellbringers to the TBR / SCR mix is for ECM purposes. The Gargoyle, Summoner, and especially the Nova simply lack the available tonnage they would need to compete with the TBR / SCR mafia. The lack of engine switching makes this worse.

So I think that his point is merely that he wishes there were more viable options for a truly competative layout, and that he wishes that more clan mechs were useful besides the TBR / SCR / HBR mafia. I could totally be misreading his intent, but this is how I feel about it myself, so that's where I'm getting this interpretation.

Edited by grendeldog, 26 April 2015 - 12:28 PM.

[InspectorG]

Summoner builds, cont.

Well, these arent great...

3LPL...decent but hot.

2LPL, ALRM20

5SRM6...GREAT if you can brawl and know when to pounce!

5SSRM6...see above but squishes light mechs better. Carry a Probe.

UAC20/LBX20, 4ERSL. Put the gun in the torso.

4ERLL...decent but i cant get it to work.

1LPL,1ERML, 3SRM4...poke and brawl i guess.

[Repasy Cooper]

These are my two Summoner optimizations:

SMN-B Mod1

Optimized this lrm variant into a streak boat, ideal for hunting down lights in hilly terrain. All light hunters should include mandatory Active Probe of course, so I have included that in the loadout. I also threw on an lrm10 rack to allow for long range harassment until I get my streaks in range. Optimal module equipment includes a UAV, S-SRM6 Range 5, and Advanced Radar Decay to hold onto my locks.

SMN-COOPER

This is my personal Snow Raven command mech. It's only a slight variation from the standard PRIME variant, optimized to fit my playstyle. A level I T-Comp sits in the right arm along with the ER PPC for added accuracy, and the lrm rack has been replaced with a S-SRM6 w/ 1.5 tons of ammo. The left arm remains unmodified, as I use it sparingly only to attack exposed internals. This mech is by no means a top contender for damage output, and so it remains more useful sticking to the rear calling out targets and dealing precise shots, moving in only to dispatch crippled foes. Modules equipped include UAV, Airstrike, Target Depravation, ER PPC range 5, ER PPC cooldown 5, and Increased Zoom.

[AlphaToaster]

I took the stock SMN-PRIME out for a spin this weekend to check out the quirks. It definitely felt a bit more nimble than what I remember the last time playing it. I've always liked the simplicity of the stock build. Sometimes I downgrade the LRM/15+1ton to an SRM/6+1ton, and then I add some more ammo for the LBX/10, but for a quick skirmisher, the stock load out seems to be just fine. The mech isn't going to core anyone out in 1 alpha, but it can hit and run well, and has enough armor to get you where you need to be.

I still feel like it needs a JJ boost, and the erPPC quirk needs to be a little bit more fast firing but it's close to being a fun mech to play again. In the stock build it's really best to play it as a erPPC sniper and the other weapons compliment the energy weapon. Only firing the LBX/10 at close targets with damaged armor and the LRM/15 at targets blatantly in the open. It doesn't have the ammo for big sustained firefights, so it's important to be constantly moving positions and firing off the erPPC to be effective.

[John80sk]

grendeldog, on 26 April 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

By saying he dislikes meta builds, I think what he may be expressing - and I feel this way as well - is that he wishes that there were a greater number of viable build types. And that requires a greater number of viable weapons.

I think everybody wants there to be multiple viable builds, variety is almost always a good thing. That is not at all what he wrote though. His statement can be interpreted as either disliking popular good builds as a whole, or disliking the current meta (CERMed/CLPL/CGauss). The former is how I took it, and believe that to be a silly view. The latter is a fair opinion that I don't necessarily disagree with, but found it funny that a build he purported as not being "meta" utilized all "meta" weapons.

[Ursh]

For CW I run with a Gauss+ 4xCERML
For solo drops I've been messing around.

4xCerml + lb10x works really well. For some reason the hits seem to register better than the cuac10 for me.

LB20X + large pulse has been surprisingly effective. Corner poke, jump poke with the large pulse, brawl when it comes to that part of the match. Light mechs, unless they're very good or very stupid, will not want to mess with you, because you'll rip off their legs pretty darn fast.

You can't run LB20X + 4xCerml I think, because the big shotgun won't fit in the torso thanks to locked slots.