25 replies to this topic

[Clint Steel]

I had a lot of fun with the CW challenge, which is surprising since I haven't really liked CW (though l love the concept). So I started thinking of what it is that I liked about it, with so many PUGs in the que. Since I really do like good strategic game play this took a while to solidify my thoughts.

I guess first I'll start with Mech diversity. Without a premade you don't get Min-Maxing on the team level, so people take Mechs that they do well in solo. Now the Clans don't really see the diversity that the IS sees since the StormCrow is so ideal, and there being far fewer Mechs to pick from on their side, but thats a different issue.

Second is tied to the first. Because of independent Mech selections, you don't get "Wave Play" as much. A premade can set up each drop and "rush" with that type of Mech, whether a Light Rush or a Crab "Rush". The team goes in together, kills/destroys objectives that they can, dies together, and then spawns together. This type of play is too COD for me, encouraging the rush in kill die respawn mentality. Its hard to believe you are a Pilot of a Mech, when you throw away your equipment and life so easily.

Times to find matches of course is nice. Which do you ride, the best Rollercoaster once or the second best 5 times in the same wait time? Which do you remember being more fun?

VOIP, not really a challenge specific thing, but it made CW much better with PUGs. I really like the push to talk aspect and the lower quality of the voice (oddly), it really makes me feel like I'm talking to Mech Pilots on the field.

In the end, the conclusion I feel I've come upon is pre made teams are overpowered. I know this has been joked about, Team work is OP, but this isn't about just working together, its about building a teams drop deck, and coordinating the plans before the battle has even begun. Now I love strategy, so I would think I would love this, but I just don't think the game handles the balancing very well, making it not as fun as it should be, hence why its more fun to drop PUG vs PUG, or at least small groups vs small groups.

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Quick ideas of improvement/change (just throwing ideas out here).

A matchmaker for CW that puts teams of the same size together, lacking that, it grabs the highest ELO solos/smaller teams to challenge the bigger teams.

Pay a price for death and a little less for just a loss of a Mech (Ejection). Not sure how this would be implemented, maybe just C-Bills maybe Honor with your faction.

More Mechs per drop with less drops per player. I'm sure this is a technical issue, but if you had more simultaneous players say 16 on each side, but 3 drops that would encourage you to stay alive a little more, also maybe only one large group per team, so still a max of a 12 man, or even limit it to 8 man max (I know you'll hate that idea ) would make for a more diversified team, and more interesting/fun matches in my mind.

[Willard Phule]

First of all, there's already a queue that uses Elo to put teams together....it's the "New Player Tutorial" or also known as "The Solo Queue."

I REALLY don't want to see CW go to that broken system. It's hard enough trying to carry half a team worth of new players in trial mechs. I don't want to see it get worse.

They also need to limit the number of trials allowed in a drop deck. Bad enough that virtually every Clan trial out there has heat issues, they're also LRM heavy....and those don't work too well against ECM. Not that standing still, zooming in and just waiting doesn't have it's appeal, I guess (there seems to be an inordinate amount of people doing that).

[sycocys]

MWO was a much different game when repair and re-arm was still in, and while I think that would turn of a lot of solo players I think it would be one 'simple' thing they could re-add to CW to make it a much more diverse and strategic environment.

You'd see more ML, SL Ac2, MG builds rigged up on cheaper variants and far less saturation with the expensive builds when people start losing money for getting 3 ecm or 20 tons of expensive LRM ammo blown away. Good players would still run 1 or 2 power builds but they'd be a lot more discerning with their movement and strategy. Some guys will still be rich enough to run all 4 for who knows how long, but things would change once they started eating into that mountain of c-bills.

I guess I see it as one of the ways to turn sim mode on, by going backwards to something we have that did actually work to somewhat balance what even/especially then were unbalanced weapon systems and promoted a lot of variety in play.

[HARDKOR]

RnR for CW would be awesome. Then you could at least make a game of using only one mech, when faced with a weaker opponent. It would also serve as a filter to keep the truly bad players out of CW because they couldn't afford it, which would improve gameplay all around.

[Davers]

Most of my games during the Challenge was small units and pugs vs the same (I pugged exclusively). They were a lot of fun.

sycocys, on 01 April 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

MWO was a much different game when repair and re-arm was still in, and while I think that would turn of a lot of solo players I think it would be one 'simple' thing they could re-add to CW to make it a much more diverse and strategic environment.

You'd see more ML, SL Ac2, MG builds rigged up on cheaper variants and far less saturation with the expensive builds when people start losing money for getting 3 ecm or 20 tons of expensive LRM ammo blown away. Good players would still run 1 or 2 power builds but they'd be a lot more discerning with their movement and strategy. Some guys will still be rich enough to run all 4 for who knows how long, but things would change once they started eating into that mountain of c-bills.

I guess I see it as one of the ways to turn sim mode on, by going backwards to something we have that did actually work to somewhat balance what even/especially then were unbalanced weapon systems and promoted a lot of variety in play.

All the IS 'power builds' use cheap standard engines and pure energy builds. So good builds like Stalkers and Thunderbolts will be cheap to run, and bad builds like LRMs will be punished even more.

Plus the Clans don't have any choice in running expensive equipment. So they aren't playing the 'risk vs reward' game you seem to want the IS to do. For them it's just a tax, and it will force out the bad Clan mechs that run FF instead of Endo (because they weren't considered bad to begin with?)

[sycocys]

Getting rid of the silly quirk system would help that as well, which is something that we didn't have back then, honestly it's a pretty boneheaded thing for the devs to be creating the meta game builds and not the players.

I would also assume though that the repair costs could be mostly balanced out Clan to IS much the way it was headed and (IMO) working before they trashed it. Really it was effective before at balancing the expensive overpowered weapons (Mostly LRMS at the time) with the weaker cheaper weapons systems, striking some sort of valid equivalent cost on both sides shouldn't really be that much math even for PGI. Especially since clan mechs are currently pretty stuck with what they have, its not like you have a lot of cost averaging to do for that side. And for the most part the only thing that's been added to the game outside of clan mechs and gear is ecm - and who knows a reasonable cost on replacing ecm match after match might actually have the effect of balancing that out a bit as well.

There could also be fluctuations in the repair costs of the most highly used weapons and engines - possibly take it as far as they can only be destroyed just so many times before incurring a total replacement cost. It would also open the door to expanding into manufacturer armaments and engines if you wanted to keep some sort of perk/quirk system in play, making the quirk system customizable for each player/style while making it much tamer so it couldn't be stacked up to ridiculous advantages.

To me its just one system that we had that actually worked and also added a lot of depth, variety and strategy to even the same 3 standard drop matches and would at a whole lot more now with CW and dozens of new mechs with hopefully some new tech around the corner.

And yeah, it certainly would keep out some of the players that couldn't handle that amount of depth which it why it was changed since we had only one game mode and it was running the fps guys away, but now we have a mode that is supposed to be more about strategy and warfare and it really seems like the perfect place to bring this back.

Edited by sycocys, 01 April 2015 - 11:44 AM.

[sycocys]

Just some thoughts though, I think the things that could make CW a really engaging mode like objectives and RnR are really costly to the mode itself because it really doesn't do much on its own to sink its teeth into players and make them drool for more.

[ZenFool]

The best thing about the event for me were the numbers. For once it actually felt like community warfare. I took the PugBucket Challenge, all 20 cw matches as a pug. I had some of the closest matches I've ever had in CW. One literally ran to the last second. You can't get better games than that. Even when getting "stomped" by the hardcore units we still pulled 48 to 20. This is so much better than pub queue.

There are tons of ways to make it better, but the biggest one is population. The more people playing, the more info the devs have to figure out how to balance it. This event showed the devs that the attack/counterattack mechanism was poorly implemented. Many players mentioned that, but without hard data its hard to see. Here's hoping some of our pugs, trial mechs and kiddie mentalities included, keep playing CW.

[Mystere]

Clint Steel, on 01 April 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

A matchmaker for CW that puts teams of the same size together, lacking that, it grabs the highest ELO solos/smaller teams to challenge the bigger teams.

No! No! No!
I do not want Elo to play any role in CW. I want open warfare, not eSports.

[sycocys]

Mystere, on 01 April 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

No! No! No!
I do not want Elo to play any role in CW. I want open warfare, not eSports.

You can hardly call PGI's elo system anything even related to eSport, unless that sport was considered special in some way. But I completely agree it would only make CW worse for everyone.

Would be far more helpful if they just had in-game tutorials on, well, anything. If solos could have a button to click that just popped up a box that told them how CW worked half the problem with those guys could be solved with a single click.

[Clint Steel]

Mystere, on 01 April 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

No! No! No!
I do not want Elo to play any role in CW. I want open warfare, not eSports.

I don't really want ELO all the time, only as a counter to 10 and 12 mans that can't find a match against similar sized teams. Again, just an idea, would need more thought to flesh it out.

[LordNothing]

ZenFool, on 01 April 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

The best thing about the event for me were the numbers. For once it actually felt like community warfare. I took the PugBucket Challenge, all 20 cw matches as a pug. I had some of the closest matches I've ever had in CW. One literally ran to the last second. You can't get better games than that. Even when getting "stomped" by the hardcore units we still pulled 48 to 20. This is so much better than pub queue.

There are tons of ways to make it better, but the biggest one is population. The more people playing, the more info the devs have to figure out how to balance it. This event showed the devs that the attack/counterattack mechanism was poorly implemented. Many players mentioned that, but without hard data its hard to see. Here's hoping some of our pugs, trial mechs and kiddie mentalities included, keep playing CW.

i have to agree here. this was one of my best event runs and probibly the best time ive had playing cw ever (that includes actual 12 mans ive participated in). i had 3 dnqs and 2 of those were no enemy games. we even won a few times (twice against a 12 man). more pugs in the game means less chance of running into an elite group. you get the numbers up high enough you might be able to match teams based on elo without adding too much of a wait time.

frankly the elitism is whats killing cw. this attitude that only 12 mans should play it. that everyone else should just go play the other game modes. they certainly dont complain when they are farming pugs for lp. but when one of those pugs suggests a feature to improve the cw experience for everyone the 12 mans always come off as hostile about the whole idea. anything to get more players on board is good.

Edited by LordNothing, 01 April 2015 - 09:04 PM.

[sdsnowbum]

LordNothing, on 01 April 2015 - 09:00 PM, said:

i have to agree here. this was one of my best event runs and probibly the best time ive had playing cw ever (that includes actual 12 mans ive participated in). i had 3 dnqs and 2 of those were no enemy games. we even won a few times (twice against a 12 man). more pugs in the game means less chance of running into an elite group. you get the numbers up high enough you might be able to match teams based on elo without adding too much of a wait time.

frankly the elitism is whats killing cw. this attitude that only 12 mans should play it. that everyone else should just go play the other game modes. they certainly dont complain when they are farming pugs for lp. but when one of those pugs suggests a feature to improve the cw experience for everyone the 12 mans always come off as hostile about the whole idea. anything to get more players on board is good.

Some groups do complain about going up against pugs, to improve this experience they are suggesting pugs join a unit. However this clearly isn't going to happen. I feel like in an ideal world it could be a solution but it's just not going to happen (even I personally prefer going solo).

What we do have are some enhancements like on the fly faction groups, and VOIP (which gives the potential for every pug team to communicate like they are in a group even if they aren't).

It appears that 'looking for group' feature is on the way which would make it easier to form on the fly groups.

The one thing that might be missing is the ability to from a group AFTER you are in a pug match. "Hey this guy was a great leader and used VOIP, I want to drop with him next time".

[Mystere]

LordNothing, on 01 April 2015 - 09:00 PM, said:

frankly the elitism is whats killing cw. this attitude that only 12 mans should play it. that everyone else should just go play the other game modes. they certainly dont complain when they are farming pugs for lp. but when one of those pugs suggests a feature to improve the cw experience for everyone the 12 mans always come off as hostile about the whole idea. anything to get more players on board is good.

I think the hostility is related to what is being proposed. I would guess the following could cause hostility:

• using Elo for matchmaking
  
• create a separate queue for solo players
  
• create a separate queue for small groups
  
• move all 12-man teams to their own queue

And as someone who only plays solo, I do disagree with all of the above.

[sdsnowbum]

Mystere, on 02 April 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

• using Elo for matchmaking

I can't help but ask, what's wrong with this one?

[Mystere]

sdsnowbum, on 02 April 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

I can't help but ask, what's wrong with this one?

I and many others view CW as a "war", not as a "sport", and Elo feels like the latter. I'd rather players decide who faces whom, especially if my suggestions here are taken.

[LordNothing]

Mystere, on 02 April 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

I think the hostility is related to what is being proposed. I would guess the following could cause hostility:

• using Elo for matchmaking
  
• create a separate queue for solo players
  
• create a separate queue for small groups
  
• move all 12-man teams to their own queue

And as someone who only plays solo, I do disagree with all of the above.

i dont at all want the bottom 3. those would slow down forming of games. i think that is the biggest problem with cw now. the wait times are horrible. even in a 12 man, and especially off peak hours. id rather not make those longer by fracturing up the available players. so anything done to fix the wait times is good.

the second biggest problem then would be population (and increasing this helps the wait times). a lot of mwo players are being alienated from cw because there is no place for their play style or skill level there. they have to wait outrageous amounts of time to get stomped into the ground. and joining a unit isnt the answer, ive pugstomped enough 12 mans to know that skill is independent of organization.

i think the population needs to be higher to do the elo matching. it would just take too long to do it now. especially with this hairbrained every planet is a lobby scheme they have going on now. there are not enough players to justify that many lobbies. maybe the game should build teams first then choose a planet for you. with pugs, small groups, and casual units playing for the lp and not really caring about planets, it makes more sense. then you could introduce elo matching later as the wait times decrease.

then you need a new planet capture mechanic for units, like some sort of batchall system where 2 units fight over a front line planet. units who own a planet would get paid taxes from that planets inhabitants into their coffers (these need a purpose too but thats another thread) as well as lp rewards for capturing a planet. this would provide incentive for elite 12 mans to fight eachother rather than farming pugs.

Mystere, on 02 April 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

I and many others view CW as a "war", not as a "sport", and Elo feels like the latter. I'd rather players decide who faces whom, especially if my suggestions here are taken.

even in war theres a place for a grunt. not everyone is going to be rambo.

Edited by LordNothing, 03 April 2015 - 08:31 PM.

[ZenFool]

Just to reiterate... Population solves all. The question becomes why are the majority of players NOT playing CW? Many have stated pug stomping/seal clubbing, but I've personally never witnessed this after day one of CW, as a group or as a pug. Yes, I expect our 12 man group to win, but 48 to 30 is NOT a stomp, its a fairly close game. As a pug, even against the best units in the game, 48 to 20 up to 48 to 30 are the worst stomps I've seen(after week one.......).

So. No one is truly getting seal clubbed any more. Can you expect to win as a random vs. a unit, probably not. Can you expect to tie them up for thirty minutes and come out of it with a decent score? Probably. So, where is everyone?

I think the vast majority were either turned off week one and won't come back because they read the bogeyman forums, or just aren't interested in the paltry awards offered, especially taking into account the horrid wait times(A product of population).

There are dozens of solutions out there, none of those involve excluding our solo players.

[That Dawg]

Clint Steel, on 01 April 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

//all that crap you said///

spot on, as far as I AM concerned, 100% accurate.

Now, it makes too much sense, so go take your idea and go back to bed....we'll never see such implementation.

Pity..its like when I first saw they were "thinking" about making solo players in pugs just that, solo ONLY sees solo, I thought, lunatic, dreamer, makes too much sense, we'll never seeeee whoa, what? they did it?? Right about the time..first time...I got tired of the crap and almost quit for good.


I LOVE CW, bought two mechs, one with real money to play "better" last weekened. Even played a few times weeknights, cause it was still fun
last night........only a week after the event.......que was dead, the 3 games I did get into all solo puggers on my side and either a 12 man, 8/4 and a 6/6 on the other....needless to say wave one all lights, wave two, game over

turned into every 1st person shooter in giant stompy robots

[That Dawg]

ZenFool, on 03 April 2015 - 09:08 PM, said:

1 Just to reiterate... Population solves all. 1a) The question becomes why are the majority of players NOT playing CW?

2 . Yes, I expect our 12 man group to win

3 I think the vast majority were either turned off week one and won't come back because they read the bogeyman forums

by points

1 yes, population solves all!
1a.....you are about to answer your own question- read on

2. no sht, when I drop a solo and see a 12 man on the other side, we do not expect to win, and many start questioning why we waited 15-20 minutes to know we're going to lose?
hell, in the time it takes to play one CW, I could play 2-4 pugs, and at least think I stand a good chance at winning, or holding my own, and if not??? Takes less time to realize we're getting stomped in pugs, than WAITING to even drop in CW.

3. No.......the vast majority never visit the forums! See number two for the real answer.
Sorry, no fresh unorganized meat for 12 mans egos, the que last night was roughly one third what it was last monday night..Reaping the rewards of #2