84 replies to this topic

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

I was literally in a game, just now, where literally every enemy mech I saw had large lasers.

EVERY, SINGLE ONE.

4 ERLL Timby's... ERLL Stalkers, ERLL ravens, LL's for everything...

This is out of hand... Medium Lasers I could understand, many mechs mount medium lasers... but it's like everything is mounting larges these days...

I'm Blue, Da bu dee da bu dai guys... damn.

PGI, I think it's time to look at Large Lasers again...

[El Bandito]

Flash Frame, on 05 April 2015 - 08:57 PM, said:

I was literally in a game, just now, where literally every enemy mech I saw had large lasers.

EVERY, SINGLE ONE.

4 ERLL Timby's... ERLL Stalkers, ERLL ravens, LL's for everything...

This is out of hand... Medium Lasers I could understand, many mechs mount medium lasers... but it's like everything is mounting larges these days...

I'm Blue, Da bu dee da bu dai guys... damn.

PGI, I think it's time to look at Large Lasers again...

Sounds like ERLLs are the issue, not the regular LLs. Regular LLs are lackluster on anything that is not STK-4N, or RVN-2X.

It also further vindicates my belief on the necessity of Sized Hardpoints. Stalkers in canon has the large lasers only mounted on the torsi, Timbies only have 1 large laser slot per arm, and RVN-2X can fit only 1 large laser.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 April 2015 - 09:06 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

I 100% agree with sized hardpoints.

I used to be against it, but you know what, sized hardpoints would help a ton in mitigating this kind of thing.

I was using the ERLL's as an example, and to be fair, all clan mechs get are ER's or pulse... and there's no color difference for the IS ERLL vs the LL... but man, I saw a TON of blue that match.

Edited by Flash Frame, 05 April 2015 - 09:03 PM.

[The Massive]

Yeah I want sized hardpoints. And sized ammo storage also.

Actually I want stock mechs but I'm willing to negotiate.

Or just put ghost heat back on large lasers.

Yes I'm serious. This is my serious face.

[FupDup]

On the topic of sized hardpoints...

They're something that I've pondered for a while, but it's important to remember that they don't actually prevent these kinds of loadouts from occurring. They may localize it onto very specific mechs, perhaps, but not eliminate them.

That's why people need to adjust their expectations of what sized hardpoints can do.

What they CAN do is further distinguish chassis/variant roles or strengths/weaknesses. That's totally legit and kewl.

What they CANT' do is balance weapons or the game, and they can't get rid of builds that you personally dislike. Perhaps move those builds to mechs that come stock with the right size guns, but not get rid of them entirely.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Entirely agreed Fup.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 05 April 2015 - 09:08 PM, said:

On the topic of sized hardpoints...

They're something that I've pondered for a while, but it's important to remember that they don't actually prevent these kinds of loadouts from occurring. They may localize it onto very specific mechs, perhaps, but not eliminate them.

That's why people need to adjust their expectations of what sized hardpoints can do.

What they CAN do is further distinguish chassis/variant roles or strengths/weaknesses. That's totally legit and kewl.

What they CANT' do is balance weapons or the game, and they can't get rid of builds that you personally dislike. Perhaps move those builds to mechs that come stock with the right size guns, but not get rid of them entirely.

If PGI rolled with Sized Hardpoints in the first place, we wouldn't have had the Gauss Kitty, Boom Cat, Boom Jager, Gauss Jager, PPC Stalkers, PPC Highlanders, PPC 3Ds, PPC Victors, Gigaspike Whale (2 x CERPPC + 2 x Gauss), basically all the mechs that caused griefs with high PPFLDs. TTK woulda been better too.

There are only a few prominent mechs that can cheese sized hardpoints, such as the Devastator, but they are few and PGI can simply choose not to create them in the first place.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 April 2015 - 09:18 PM.

[Elizander]

I'm on my RVN-4X with my 30% energy range quirk and my ERLL range module outranging clans all day everyday.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 05 April 2015 - 09:13 PM, said:

If PGI rolled with Sized Hardpoints in the first place, we wouldn't have had the Gauss Kitty, Boom Cat, Boom Jager, Gauss Jager, Plague of PPC Highlanders, PPC 3Ds, PPC Victors, Gigaspike Whale (2 x CERPPC + 2 x Gauss), BASICALLY ALL THE MECHS THAT HAVE GREIF CAUSING PPFLDs.

You forgot the old splash damage SRMs and the current day laser vomit. Also various past Lurmageddon episodes.

Also, three of those mechs in your list were probably caused by weird JJ mechanics more than PPCs or PPFLD...who ever called a 2 PPC Catapult K2 overpowered? Probably no one, at least I hope...


Anyways, two other things:

1. We can still have builds like that, they'd just be localized to the lucky stocks mechs who get to have the cheese builds.

2. I'd rather not use sized hardpoints on Omnimechs, because then it would give us a way to differentiate Clan Battlemechs from Clan Omnimechs (also gives IS Omnimechs one actual advantage over IS Battlemechs).

Edited by FupDup, 05 April 2015 - 09:19 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Flash Frame, on 05 April 2015 - 08:57 PM, said:

I was literally in a game, just now, where literally every enemy mech I saw had large lasers.

EVERY, SINGLE ONE.

4 ERLL Timby's... ERLL Stalkers, ERLL ravens, LL's for everything...

This is out of hand... Medium Lasers I could understand, many mechs mount medium lasers... but it's like everything is mounting larges these days...

I'm Blue, Da bu dee da bu dai guys... damn.

PGI, I think it's time to look at Large Lasers again...

Sounds like we keep circling all the problems of MW4. First PPC boats, second were jumptards, now large laser spam that hark to the days of MP2.1a.

FupDup, on 05 April 2015 - 09:08 PM, said:

On the topic of sized hardpoints...

They're something that I've pondered for a while, but it's important to remember that they don't actually prevent these kinds of loadouts from occurring. They may localize it onto very specific mechs, perhaps, but not eliminate them.

That's why people need to adjust their expectations of what sized hardpoints can do.

What they CAN do is further distinguish chassis/variant roles or strengths/weaknesses. That's totally legit and kewl.

What they CANT' do is balance weapons or the game, and they can't get rid of builds that you personally dislike. Perhaps move those builds to mechs that come stock with the right size guns, but not get rid of them entirely.

Anyone who thought that they could balance weapon was deluding themselves to begin with, but they can definitely distinguish mechs. As brought up several times during those discussions, it could've mitigated the problems with the Awesome/Stalker comparison decently early on. Another interesting facet is that it can help mitigate the increased dependence/power of asymmetric builds that run rampant currently. They aren't an inherently bad thing but the amount of asymmetric builds should probably be curtailed to increase variety.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 05 April 2015 - 09:22 PM.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 05 April 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

You forgot the old splash damage SRMs and the current day laser vomit.

Also, three of those mechs in your list were probably caused by weird JJ mechanics more than PPCs or PPFLD...who ever called a 2 PPC Catapult K2 overpowered? Probably no one, at least I hope...


Anyways, two other things:

1. We can still have builds like that, they'd just be localized to the lucky stocks mechs who get to have the cheese builds.

2. I'd rather not use sized hardpoints on Omnimechs, because then it would give us a way to differentiate Clan Battlemechs from Clan Omnimechs (also gives IS Omnimechs one actual advantage over IS Battlemechs).

Big reason why PPC K2 wasn't able to compete with the rest is cause it couldn't mate the PPCs with a Gauss. It was still a good mech back in the day.

And as I said above, the cheese mechs will be there, but few and far between. Most of the cheesiest ones are not yet released and do not have to be released, ever.

About sized hardpoints on omni-mechs, they are already unique enough from Clan battlemechs, with the ability to swap pods.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 April 2015 - 09:24 PM.

[Sorbic]

Flash Frame, on 05 April 2015 - 08:57 PM, said:

I was literally in a game, just now, where literally every enemy mech I saw had large lasers.

EVERY, SINGLE ONE.

4 ERLL Timby's... ERLL Stalkers, ERLL ravens, LL's for everything...

This is out of hand... Medium Lasers I could understand, many mechs mount medium lasers... but it's like everything is mounting larges these days...

I'm Blue, Da bu dee da bu dai guys... damn.

PGI, I think it's time to look at Large Lasers again...

Hyper-Hyperbole!

Edited by Sorbic, 05 April 2015 - 09:25 PM.

[Elizander]

How can we even compare 30 ppfld to 30 ppfld/64 laservomit splash or 50+ laservomit splashes? The 30 ppfld only worked because of jump jets and you couldn't fight back if they were quick. You bring your 30 ppfld out today without JJ against 96 alpha and you can say goodbye to your legs (or CT if your latency or the other guy's latency is way different).

Edited by Elizander, 05 April 2015 - 09:23 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 05 April 2015 - 09:21 PM, said:

Big reason why PPC K2 wasn't able to compete with the rest is cause it couldn't mate the PPCs with a Gauss.

The point was more about PPCs/PPFLD rather than the Cat's own specific drawbacks. In its case, horrible hitboxes are probably the biggest weakness it has, in a game where your unit's durability is probably the most important characteristic of any mech (or at least in the top 2-3 characteristics).

El Bandito, on 05 April 2015 - 09:21 PM, said:

About sized hardpoints on omni-mechs, they are already unique enough from Clan battlemechs, with the ability to swap pods.

With the current construction rules, an average Clan BM would beat the snot out of an average Clan Omnimech. Only the super-optimized ones that we know and love would be able to compete. The ability to swap out the internal goodies and min-max the engine are pretty valuable.

Likewise, imagine an IS Omnimech with hardlocked engine (often the very fragile IS XL, even on heavies and assaults), hardlocked internal structure (might not even get Endo), and hardlocked armor type (might or might not have bulky IS Ferro).

[El Bandito]

Elizander, on 05 April 2015 - 09:22 PM, said:

How can we even compare 30 ppfld to 30 ppfld/64 laservomit splash or 50+ laservomit splashes? The 30 ppfld only worked because of jump jets and you couldn't fight back if they were quick. You bring your 30 ppfld out today without JJ against 96 alpha and you can say goodbye to your legs (or CT if your latency or the other guy's latency is way different).

Which is exactly the reason Sized hardpoints are needed. Then there will be no 64 damage laser vomit on many mechs.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 April 2015 - 09:41 PM.

[Xetelian]

Sized hard points are really suck and I wont be playing with you.

AC 20 Raven OP!

Edited by Xetelian, 05 April 2015 - 09:28 PM.

[Thunder Child]

Sized Hardpoints also would have prevented the whole debacle with the Thud. Considering only the Right Arm would have been rated for a PPC.

The Only Issue I see with Sized Hardpoints is that it almost Enforces Stock Mechs, which, while personally I am not against it, many people would put on the water works about how their customisation is GONE, and now they can't run their Triple Machine Gun, Quad Flamer, Quad LRM 5 Timberwolf anymore (Because they were TOTALLY doing THAT, and NOT abusing the living hell out of the chassis, right?)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Thunder Child, on 05 April 2015 - 09:31 PM, said:

The Only Issue I see with Sized Hardpoints is that it almost Enforces Stock Mechs

Depends on implementation, it is an arbitrary limitation. Sized hardpoints could be setup now to act just like the current hardpoints for example. That's not how it would be used, just trying to point out it is really up to the devs in how much freedom is entertained (whether it is good leaving it up to PGI is another debate).

[Ultimax]

Thunder Child, on 05 April 2015 - 09:31 PM, said:

Sized Hardpoints also would have prevented the whole debacle with the Thud. Considering only the Right Arm would have been rated for a PPC.

No one would have played it ever.

It would have needed 5x the quirks it got, if it could only use a PPC in it's RA with a bunch of flamers and medium lasers in the torso.

That is a dumb, sucky build for this game. It will never be good, and anything that comes close to enforcing builds like that will just be a giant lotto where mechs that have the least suck elements win.

[Alexandrix]

sized hardpoints
dynamic convergence mechanic (affected by movement,heat,etc.)
proper heatscale(30 cap?/true dubs)+heat penalties

game fixed
you're welcome