84 replies to this topic

[nitra]

El Bandito, on 05 April 2015 - 09:13 PM, said:

If PGI rolled with Sized Hardpoints in the first place, we wouldn't have had the Gauss Kitty, Boom Cat, Boom Jager, Gauss Jager, PPC Stalkers, PPC Highlanders, PPC 3Ds, PPC Victors, Gigaspike Whale (2 x CERPPC + 2 x Gauss), basically all the mechs that caused griefs with high PPFLDs. TTK woulda been better too.

There are only a few prominent mechs that can cheese sized hardpoints, such as the Devastator, but they are few and PGI can simply choose not to create them in the first place.

Gauss kitty not a problem countered by fast lights and fast mediums and fast heavies. thanks to ... Full Customization

Boom Cat again not a problem countered by same as above and again thanks to full custom

Boom jag countered by the above and thanks to full custom

gauss jag not a problem ditto

ppc stalkers were some what a problem fixed with weapon balance. but also countered with lrm boats and the boom, gauss, kittys and jagers thanks to full custom.

the other ppc builds were not even a problem.

and yes im referring to these before launch as they were never a problem.

gigaspike eh, fast mechs decent alpha whale down.. fulll custom thank you.

unfortunately full custom does shorten TTK

i enjoyed fighting these builds on the battlefields they each presented a unique challenge to over come and a unexpected twists to the game.

i really enjoy surprising people with ac20 ravens and other ridicolus builds. although 12 v 12 has made that more difficult.



i think the last few responses above this post sum it up quiet nicely.
there is a group of players who want all skirmishes they participate in be on equal footing. regardless of the build.

seeing some one complain about large laser ravens makes me sad.
this is a game about role warfare the great thing is we get to design the roles we want our mechs to play.

but no, we cant have that we must adhere to a strict classes based approach to game play where each mech is pingoned holed into some ideological category where it only performs well against x,y,z but fails utterly aginst a,b, and c.

and frankly i am tired of games like that they can stay in console land where they belong.


give me deeper mechanics full customization more daka moar wub and more mechs because diversity is what makes this game fun. be damned the meta! i enjoy running aginst it .

and as for the large lasers . there only a problem when your standing still trading licks... move for gods sake stop sand bagging and get out there and fight.

and those erll ravens.. watch a pilot in one those one game. youll realize they have to work, and work hard for their kills .

there not standing around raking up kills .

Edited by nitra, 05 April 2015 - 11:56 PM.

[Duke Nedo]

I am afraid this would just obsolete LOTS of variants... Apart from that, not particularly against it... But it would be hard to implement without breaking lots of robots. One single variant that can do an efficient cheese build after such a change is enough to break 100 that can't...

[El Bandito]

Elizander, on 05 April 2015 - 10:48 PM, said:

If I didn't have over a dozen friends recruited to this game quit I would be. All of them gamers, half of them played quite a bit of Battletech/Mechwarrior back in highschool and a quarter have played MW1-4.

Which has more to do with other issues than sized hardpoints, I am willing to bet. Negative NPE stems more from the Paulconomy, the repetitiveness, ECM/LRM issue, lack of tutorials etc... Any newbie joining MWO won't give two cents about sized hardpoints. He will give more damn about how he is dying within 2 seconds by big alphas--exacerbated by current customization.

Duke Nedo, on 05 April 2015 - 11:03 PM, said:

I am afraid this would just obsolete LOTS of variants... Apart from that, not particularly against it... But it would be hard to implement without breaking lots of robots. One single variant that can do an efficient cheese build after such a change is enough to break 100 that can't...

If there is only a single variant breaking balance, then it is much easier to nerfbat it.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 April 2015 - 11:31 PM.

[Virgil Greyson]

The journey begins again.

[Elizander]

Virgil Greyson, on 05 April 2015 - 11:25 PM, said:

The journey begins again.

[STEF_]

IMO, with sized hardpoiints, we'll see even less kinds of mechs in the battelfield than now.

Because it's the weaponry that makes the role/mech.
So, eliminating weapon possibility in a mech, that mech disappears. (because we only play skirmish, let's remember this)

[El Bandito]

Stefka Kerensky, on 05 April 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:

IMO, with sized hardpoiints, we'll see even less kinds of mechs in the battelfield than now.

Because it's the weaponry that makes the role/mech.
So, eliminating weapon possibility in a mech, that mech disappears. (because we only play skirmish, let's remember this)

Which is bad. As right now, all mechs, be it Lights, Mediums, Heavies, or Assaults are boating the crap outta whatever weapon is powerful right now, be it multiple Gauss or LPLs or ERLLs--directly contributing to shorter TTK. Sized hardpoints will reduce that. Quirks can help the less performing ones.

Bottom line is: Mech diversity (or lack there of) will still be the same using both system. But with SHP, at least the TTK will be reduced and new players will especially benefit from it.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 April 2015 - 12:06 AM.

[Averen]

Frankly, those Ideas like sized hardpoints are terrible. Really terrible. It's like throwing a grenade into the realm of possible mechdesigns, with the naive hope there will be no strong build left standing. Worked really well with clans.

This is going to happen: Most mechs are utterly crippled, and a few outliers are completely overpowered, because they've won the roulette and are less crippled.

Think about the consequences. There is already now no real way to balance a mechs charachteristics against anothers, and that's why we have quirks.

Edited by Averen, 06 April 2015 - 12:14 AM.

[MikeBend]

Xetelian, on 05 April 2015 - 09:27 PM, said:

Sized hard points are really suck and I wont be playing with you.

AC 20 Raven OP!

You spelled Gauss Spider wrong!!

[El Bandito]

Averen, on 06 April 2015 - 12:12 AM, said:

Frankly, those Ideas like sized hardpoints are terrible. Really terrible. It's like throwing a grenade into the realm of possible mechdesigns, with the naive hope there will be no strong build left standing. Worked really well with clans.

This is going to happen: Most mechs are utterly crippled, and a few outliers are completely overpowered, because they've won the roulette and are less crippled.

Think about the consequences. There is already now no real way to balance a mechs charachteristics against anothers, and that's why we have quirks.

You speak as if quirks cannot co-exist with SHP. Hint: it can.

[STEF_]

El Bandito, on 05 April 2015 - 11:55 PM, said:

Which is bad. As right now, all mechs, be it Lights, Mediums, Heavies, or Assaults are boating the crap outta whatever weapon is powerful right now, be it multiple Gauss or LPLs or ERLLs--directly contributing to shorter TTK. Sized hardpoints will reduce that. Quirks can help the less performing ones.

I'm not so sure that sized hardpoints would contribute to increase TTK, because that weaponry that you mention will still be available, but in less mechs than now. So, ppl will pilot that 2-4 mechs, unless sub-par mech will have incredible quirks, which is a way to shorten TTK, again.

TTK, we know, would be solved with delayed convergence.

[kapusta11]

LRM apocalypse - bad - nerfed
Gauss+PPC meta - bad - nerfed
AC+PPC meta - bad - nerfed
Laser meta - bad
Buff LRMs - no, bad idea
Buff PPCs - no, bad idea

Make up your ******* mind already!

Edited by kapusta11, 06 April 2015 - 12:24 AM.

[Averen]

El Bandito, on 06 April 2015 - 12:16 AM, said:

You speak as if quirks cannot co-exist with SHP. Hint: it can.

Yep. And we need even more quirks to balance out another thing, a number of arbitrarily sized hardpoints. By giving the weak mechs more firepower, because the better ones will be just as strong as they are now. This is just testimony to how utterly contrieved and shortsighted tzhis kind of idea is.

Not to mention we're far from a consensus that we actually would want to limite the mechbuild for no real reason as to artificially trying to limit the meta. Which will result in a meta of itself, etc, etc... It will be centered around killing mechs fast, because thats what mechwarrior is about.

[Sandersson Jankins]

Interesting idea, although not based in lore. Lore shouldn't be too much of a factor besides inspiration, though!

What if we had options between a few Large hardpoints, or banking those into more Small hardpoints.

So if you had 3 Large hardpoints, you could exchange those for 6 Small hardpoints (2 distributed into each former Large hardpoint's component)

Any thoughts? I think it would avoid the 6 LL or whatever clan laser vomit there is rather well, while still allowing for banking smaller weapons like ML and MPLs.

[Kilo 40]

pretty soon the only thing mechs will be allowed to use is the cockpit light.

but then, of course, will see the thread about "I was just in a match where EVERYONE was using the cockpit light! this is getting out of hand."

[Kjudoon]

Flash Frame, on 05 April 2015 - 08:57 PM, said:

I was literally in a game, just now, where literally every enemy mech I saw had large lasers.

EVERY, SINGLE ONE.

4 ERLL Timby's... ERLL Stalkers, ERLL ravens, LL's for everything...

This is out of hand... Medium Lasers I could understand, many mechs mount medium lasers... but it's like everything is mounting larges these days...

I'm Blue, Da bu dee da bu dai guys... damn.

PGI, I think it's time to look at Large Lasers again...

This is because the foundational balance of the game is broken and requires a significant fix that makes sure that you have multiple weapons that are equal in all three hardpoints or at least cannot be determined superior to others.

Quirks, although I see the need for them, really are a cast on a broken bone that was never set properly to deal with a problem that cannot be avoided, and that's bad mech geometry, and that's a problem that a FPS shooter cannot change because some mechs shapes are just plain easier to hit, therefore making them more fragile and therefore less functional on the battlefield. Quirks were used even in TT to a certain degree under optional rules to give some balance and extra flavor to the game. Here, they're being used to counteract the fact that the simulator environment makes a huge difference on the viability of a mech.

Classic example: the Catapult. Supposed to be a very powerful and common mech, rarely seen in MWO. Why? It's too squishy. The arms/ears are shot off with surprising ease because they're the size of a torso. Combine that with the status of LRMs and they become a garbage mech instantly. Therefore the quirks come in to save it. Artificially toughen up the arms and easily hit torsos thanks to it's big egg body and dice shaped arms. Now to deal with the weapons, buff them up a little in range, speed and heat gen, still weak unless you go with ridiculous buffs like the HBK J or now that variant of the QKD. The tipping point is so fine though, one wrong move and suddenly there is a solid competitive, not balanced reason to take the Catapult.

Unfortunately, again, due to the nature of an FPS where you have precision control of weapons, this is not going away anytime soon.

If you really want to balance this game you have to do some very unpopular and controversial things. I'm not saying I agree with this, or don't see this as potentially apocalyptically destructive, but balance is the goal.

1. Put into place dynamic convergence OR cone of fire based on modifiers (movement/damage/chassis/equipment/modules/quirks). This removes the player skill dominance because they don't have precision control. This will flat out infuriate every competitive team out there.

2. Balance all weapon types. This means you need mathematical equivalency between an AC10 and PPC and LRM10, with variation based on weapon type attributes. This must be calculated out that it must be as equal as possible so the min/maxers cannot find a difference between them. Again, this will destroy much connection to all previous variations of the game.

3. Force combat roles. This means you have to either radically reduce, or size your hardpoints, make XP and CBill chassis/or dependent... or worst of all, eliminate customization from the game.

These are three scortched earth moves to balance the game in increasing levels of 'dear God what are you doing?!' None of these balancing theories is without pitfalls and will cause pitchforks and torches to come out. The question is, will it be any worse than what we have going on right now?

Personally, I think we're almost at the point where there is no choice, something must be tried before a death spiral begins and let the chips fall where they may.

Edited by Kjudoon, 06 April 2015 - 12:54 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Kjudoon, on 06 April 2015 - 12:52 AM, said:

snip

I agree.

[Varvar86]

Large lasers become more popular after CW start.
Reason #1 - 1 half of the round is usually long range shooting.
Defenders are trying to deal maximum damage on the upcoming attackers staying on the maximum range from them as possible (some maps like Boreal Vault is designed for LR engagement on the first stages)
Attackers trying to open gates while staying maximum far away from the turrets and defenders fire.
All started from PPC tunderbolts, now we got LL - its all about shoot from the distance. this is overall community tactics - when majority units starts using PPC and LL solo players and smaller groups start to copy lodouts to stay competitive and kick back damage from the long range too.

Reason#2 - as someone said before LL is more easy to use comparing with ballistics


Reason#3 - far not all player has lots of mechs in hangar to play with loadouts and to crate specialized mechs for different modes. Because now you cant save loadouts for mechs and change them in 1 click, players change their lodouts not so often.
That’s why you see LL builds in all game modes.
I myself got LL stormcow used in first CW drops for LR engagement, and I also take it into regular random drops.

This will gone too.

Edited by Varvar86, 06 April 2015 - 01:13 AM.

[Elizander]

El Bandito, on 05 April 2015 - 11:23 PM, said:

Which has more to do with other issues than sized hardpoints, I am willing to bet. Negative NPE stems more from the Paulconomy, the repetitiveness, ECM/LRM issue, lack of tutorials etc... Any newbie joining MWO won't give two cents about sized hardpoints. He will give more damn about how he is dying within 2 seconds by big alphas--exacerbated by current customization.



If there is only a single variant breaking balance, then it is much easier to nerfbat it.

Meaning all clan mechs that can laser vomit for 50 and the Direwhale that can gausslaservomit for 96? It might not affect the clans as much though because CERML would fit anywhere under a sized-hardpoint system.

Edited by Elizander, 06 April 2015 - 01:17 AM.

[Grey Ghost]

I haven't really noticed any worrying problems, but to each their own. If PGI does decide to alter the IS Large Lasers, then I hope they start off with something manageable like upping their ghost heat multiplier. Unless firing more that 3 at a time isn't what all this drama is about.