291 replies to this topic

[Insects]

Cathy, on 06 April 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

it hurts our eyes it does precious !

[Asmosis]

Quirks are shaping up really well, between that and the great design/artwork on the mechs themselves they are all (eventually) getting a lot of uniqueness and personality going for them.

[Lily from animove]

Knyx, on 07 April 2015 - 03:12 AM, said:

still failed to fix the core issues of each mech.

this is the issues, most got quriked, but the majority of eal issues were not really fixed.

arms, yar and turn rates and angles? 4% srm/lrm spread? does the average pilot with his aim even have any effect off this? Wow, it got quriks, because someone decided to quirk them, but much sense was not in the most of them.

John McHobo, on 07 April 2015 - 03:12 AM, said:

First off: I like that Clan Mechs get quirked -some of them need it badly.

But I don´t understand why so many people find the quirks underwhelming.
Remember :
-You can puzzle those mechs together as you want, so any part with a significant quirk will end up on every chassis.
-Clan weaponry is powerful, any weapon quirk to a clan weapon has stronger consequences
-I like the idea to give clan mechs more quirks for mobility and durability to show their superior workmanship

I don´t think weapon buffs are necessary. What might be interesting is an ammo quirk: Certain mechs get more ammo per ton for their trademark weapons.
One very important thing: If someone is going for the full set bonus, you know exactly what quirks he gets, so I suggest you reward this with a bigger set bonus, since the puzzling aspect falls out then.

A thought about the Nova: Everyone wants it to run cool, but consider this: The Nova is infamous for its ABILITY to overheat, it has one of the nastiest Laser-Alphas you can put up on a medium. Give this mech the ability to use its firepower constantly and it will be overpowered and simplified. Why is everyone so mad about a mech that simply needs good heat management and timing after its Alpha?

the Nova's issues are differnt ones.. yes fully laserboaring is hot. It should.

But:

the CT and leg quirks made prime and S pointless, because nonsense quirks and less mobility than A and B variants.
So with the issues the Nova has, no one is going to choose prime or S if he has some understanding about how this turns out.

The Nova as a dragon like CT but only got 8hp, while some arms even got 26. But what for? with soemwhat aim you cna easily hit the ST or CT, so all the arms buffs are pointless. So again an issues adressed was quirked but not in the right way, better would ahve been 12 HOP across CT, ST, arms. or even 15. But the legs? They never needed some.

@Widowmaker

yes the 2 PPC adder, maybe, but lets be hones, look a the base adders, which one would you chosse? I see currently no reason why on ANY adder I want to built I should not use a prime CT+legs. The problem of many quirks is they either do not adress the issue of a mech, or they do not differ in importantance.

compare them:

ADR Prime:
25% acc/decc
10%reverse speed.


ADR-A
10%Acc/dec
12 turn angle
10%T-yaw rate
5%reverse speed

ADR-D
10%Acc/dec
6 turn angle
20%T-yaw rate


ADR-B
10%Acc/dec
5% Turn rate
Turn rate speed 5%

So no idea why but the reverse speed and acc/decc are vital for popping maneuvers.

The turn speed may be iportant for srm circling and running between opponents.

Which makes:

The prime having usage for pooping over the A and D. because angle rates? lol pitiful till nonsense.
The B having the advantage on circling over the A and D.

B and prime, compete on the situation. But A D ? they compete about the place they gather dust in the mech hangar.

So this chocie is by raw comaprison, with no other mechs than itself already a rather no brain decision.

Same for missiles. if you use a build with only 2 M in use, 4%(8) spread, vs 3%(8) velocity? Hmm, honestly, both values are so low, they will not even be my motivation to choose one of them. Simply the question if I want my M in the arms or Torso is way more meanign full than any of these two quirks.

same for PPC's I will palce them in CT. because thats what matters more than the quirks at all. yet 15% heat gen on the arms is decent enough to choose the arms as well. So I will miss the acc/decc rate ot the priems 8-set. But honestly, higher more save torso location for hillpopping of my PPC's vs 2,5% acc/decc that the prime set brings? thats very much a no brain decision vs the arms. Yet I will not run the ADR-A for the setboni, because 15% PPC heat and velocity vs 4turn angle and 2,5% yaw rate? Again a no brian decision.

So in the end on many clanquirks we have gotten, half are meanignless at all, because they are either outclassed by other pods, or can't compete with the decision of the hardpoint location, because the "gain" of the quirks is less than the gain of hadpoint locations.
So a 2 laser, 2 Missile Adder will not be choosen by the pod quirks, it will simply chosen by my favour of the M's being in the Torsi or Arms. because 4% cooldown or 4% heat gen, or 6% duration are so tiny and meaningless. Same for the missile spread or velocity.

and non of these quirks, make the mech really more appealign or better at all except maybe the PPC quirks.

[Kyynele]

John McHobo, on 07 April 2015 - 03:12 AM, said:

But I don´t understand why so many people find the quirks underwhelming.
Remember :
-You can puzzle those mechs together as you want, so any part with a significant quirk will end up on every chassis.
-Clan weaponry is powerful, any weapon quirk to a clan weapon has stronger consequences
-I like the idea to give clan mechs more quirks for mobility and durability to show their superior workmanship

I find the quirks underwhelming because:
- No matter how you puzzle a mech together, a -2% to some stat only makes a noticeable difference to those who fight in spreadsheets, not in the actual game. The game would be better off with all the tiny quirks completely removed, they just add clutter.
- A lot of the clan omnipods are clearly inferior to the others. IMO, the only weapon quirks needed would be for the omnipods that nobody ever chooses, usually because of bad hardpoints in awkward places. This would encourage variety and discourage boating, ie always choosing the omnipods that you can fit the most weapons in. Or always choosing the ECM omnipod for Hellbringer. For choosing "bad" omnipods, the quirks could and should be worthwhile.

Look at Gargoyle C and D. D has 2 energy hardpoints in the CT, C has none. For choosing the C CT, you get 5% LESS acceleration AND deceleration, and gain +5% turn rate. Do you honestly consider that a strong enough buff to make you ponder whether to take any weapons to your CT or not? The designers should be ashamed.

I don't want OP quirks for clans so I'd have easier time to shoot IS mechs. I want meaningful quirks that would make me consider several different options when building mechs.

Structure and armor quirks are nice, and a reasonable way to improve the general viability of the worse chassis.

For weapon quirks, the Adder ERPPC heat generation is the only one that makes any real difference to anyone. The rest, I'd honestly be happier if they didnt exist at all, so I wouldn't have wasted my time reading those. Back to the drawing board, thank you.

Edited by Kyynele, 07 April 2015 - 05:16 AM.

[Nightmare1]

So...it says that the Cyan background was the nerfing color. Then it says that bold means it was reduced. Is it only the bolded stuff in Cyan that got nerfed, or is it anything anywhere that's in bold? 'Cause if that's true, then it looks like the Summoner got nerfed again, poor thing...

Also, the quirks it has listed, don't really play to the chassis' strengths, I think.

[Nightmare1]

John McHobo, on 07 April 2015 - 03:12 AM, said:

First off: I like that Clan Mechs get quirked -some of them need it badly.

But I don´t understand why so many people find the quirks underwhelming.
Remember :
-You can puzzle those mechs together as you want, so any part with a significant quirk will end up on every chassis.
-Clan weaponry is powerful, any weapon quirk to a clan weapon has stronger consequences
-I like the idea to give clan mechs more quirks for mobility and durability to show their superior workmanship

I don´t think weapon buffs are necessary. What might be interesting is an ammo quirk: Certain mechs get more ammo per ton for their trademark weapons.
One very important thing: If someone is going for the full set bonus, you know exactly what quirks he gets, so I suggest you reward this with a bigger set bonus, since the puzzling aspect falls out then.

A thought about the Nova: Everyone wants it to run cool, but consider this: The Nova is infamous for its ABILITY to overheat, it has one of the nastiest Laser-Alphas you can put up on a medium. Give this mech the ability to use its firepower constantly and it will be overpowered and simplified. Why is everyone so mad about a mech that simply needs good heat management and timing after its Alpha?

Because you can't Alpha in a Nova? Nova Alpha = SuperNova Explosion!

Seriously, if you haven't tried it yet, you should do so. The Mech runs super hot with just about anything because it has a lot of tonnage tied up in locked JJs that are useless for the chassis, that would be better suited to heat sinks. About the only viable builds are CERSML, a handful of pulses, or a CERPPC with a couple CERMLs and CMGs as back up weapons. It's one of the most restrictive chassis because of heat, which makes it a lot less fun to play around with when goofing off in the Mechlab.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

John McHobo, on 07 April 2015 - 03:12 AM, said:

First off: I like that Clan Mechs get quirked -some of them need it badly.

But I don´t understand why so many people find the quirks underwhelming.
Remember :
-You can puzzle those mechs together as you want, so any part with a significant quirk will end up on every chassis.
-Clan weaponry is powerful, any weapon quirk to a clan weapon has stronger consequences
-I like the idea to give clan mechs more quirks for mobility and durability to show their superior workmanship

I don´t think weapon buffs are necessary. What might be interesting is an ammo quirk: Certain mechs get more ammo per ton for their trademark weapons.
One very important thing: If someone is going for the full set bonus, you know exactly what quirks he gets, so I suggest you reward this with a bigger set bonus, since the puzzling aspect falls out then.

A thought about the Nova: Everyone wants it to run cool, but consider this: The Nova is infamous for its ABILITY to overheat, it has one of the nastiest Laser-Alphas you can put up on a medium. Give this mech the ability to use its firepower constantly and it will be overpowered and simplified. Why is everyone so mad about a mech that simply needs good heat management and timing after its Alpha?

I think you got Nova confused with Firestarter, bro. lol.

Also, the Nova TT had actual DHS, not PGI bargain bin DHS, so it did much better getting rid of heat compared to now. Second, given the choice of a Nova and Stormcrow... well Stormcrow doesn't have tonnage stuffed in JJ's and has more tonnage to work with.

[Lily from animove]

Nightmare1, on 07 April 2015 - 05:25 AM, said:

Because you can't Alpha in a Nova? Nova Alpha = SuperNova Explosion!

Seriously, if you haven't tried it yet, you should do so. The Mech runs super hot with just about anything because it has a lot of tonnage tied up in locked JJs that are useless for the chassis, that would be better suited to heat sinks. About the only viable builds are CERSML, a handful of pulses, or a CERPPC with a couple CERMLs and CMGs as back up weapons. It's one of the most restrictive chassis because of heat, which makes it a lot less fun to play around with when goofing off in the Mechlab.

No, lern to manage heat even the 12CRML build is playable fine by heatmanagement. what gimpes the mech is its horrible goemetry and that everyone with aim can shoot of your components as he pleases because its superwide on every component. Lern to heat management, but maybe is spoilt IS player do not know anymore what heatmanagement is with their superquirked superlow heat weapons.

[John McHobo]

Quote

Because you can't Alpha in a Nova? Nova Alpha = SuperNova Explosion!

Seriously, if you haven't tried it yet, you should do so. The Mech runs super hot with just about anything because it has a lot of tonnage tied up in locked JJs that are useless for the chassis, that would be better suited to heat sinks. About the only viable builds are CERSML, a handful of pulses, or a CERPPC with a couple CERMLs and CMGs as back up weapons. It's one of the most restrictive chassis because of heat, which makes it a lot less fun to play around with when goofing off in the Mechlab.

I have run the TrialNova when it came out so I do know it runs HOT.
I also know that its broad build allows you to fire one arm out of cover without overheating and chainfiring after your Alpha against your open target is an option. Why anyone is bothered by built-in JJs I don´t know - Personally I would always mount JJs anyways when given the option.

[Lily from animove]

John McHobo, on 07 April 2015 - 05:48 AM, said:

I have run the TrialNova when it came out so I do know it runs HOT.
I also know that its broad build allows you to fire one arm out of cover without overheating and chainfiring after your Alpha against your open target is an option. Why anyone is bothered by built-in JJs I don´t know - Personally I would always mount JJs anyways when given the option.

because if you would invest JJ's into speed your survivability would increase since appearing and disappearing is easier. But clan construction rules do not allow this.
Also no fixed J's/DHS would open up Ballistics as viable builds with enough spare ammo which cirrently is not given. 3 JJ's would also be enough.

[Nightmare1]

Lily from animove, on 07 April 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

No, lern to manage heat even the 12CRML build is playable fine by heatmanagement. what gimpes the mech is its horrible goemetry and that everyone with aim can shoot of your components as he pleases because its superwide on every component. Lern to heat management, but maybe is spoilt IS player do not know anymore what heatmanagement is with their superquirked superlow heat weapons.

I know how to manage heat - I actually run the 12 CERML as my favorite build. It just takes finesse and you definitely can't Alpha. That other poster was referencing the Mech's Alpha as something that wasn't such a big deal. I was pointing out that it is because, with several builds, you won't survive it. Yes, the hit boxes are wonky which is why the Nova does not make a good brawler. It is too easy to maim or cripple. It serves better as long or mid-range laser fire support. The arms also hang low which makes it difficult to fight over a hill. Those are all just a few of the reasons that contribute to why the Stormcrow is preferred over the Nova.

I know my Mechs.

[Nightmare1]

John McHobo, on 07 April 2015 - 05:48 AM, said:

I have run the TrialNova when it came out so I do know it runs HOT.
I also know that its broad build allows you to fire one arm out of cover without overheating and chainfiring after your Alpha against your open target is an option. Why anyone is bothered by built-in JJs I don´t know - Personally I would always mount JJs anyways when given the option.

Firing one arm from around cover is one of the strong points of the Nova. In that regard, it is similar to a Hunchback. Personally speaking, I link my left and right arms to triggers 1 and 2, respectively. I then use Triggers 3 and 4 to fire two lasers from each arm, while Trigger 5 is a master chain firing Trigger.

As for JJs, the tonnage invested in them would be better used in Heat Sinks. Unless you are running a CERPPC or CG build, you can't effectively poptart in a Nova. Thus, the JJs are rather useless unless you want to try mountain climbing. I would switch mine out for Heat Sinks on my Prime in a heartbeat if I could. I would keep them on my other two variants though since I made them into CERPPC jump snipers.

[Summon3r]

Whk and adr prime are badly going to need those omni set bonus to add more and better heat gen reduction for erppc like 10% .... And arm pitch can go out the Window lol?

[Extremist Pain]

reading over this list, I am yet again filled with regret that i have purchased my clan mechs with dollars rather than c-bills. At this point in the lore, clan mechs are generally kicking ass. All we are really asking for though is an equal mech, not a superior.

[Shadow Magnet]

In the end it does come down to the question: will there be more Nova (or the other clan mechs with changed quirks) piloted after this patch?

I dont think so.

[Lily from animove]

Extremist Pain, on 07 April 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

reading over this list, I am yet again filled with regret that i have purchased my clan mechs with dollars rather than c-bills. At this point in the lore, clan mechs are generally kicking ass. All we are really asking for though is an equal mech, not a superior.

well you could ask for a refund and if you bought packs, you will, unlike MC's get dollars back and not MC's.

Shadow Magnet, on 07 April 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

In the end it does come down to the question: will there be more Nova (or the other clan mechs with changed quirks) piloted after this patch?

I dont think so.

yes for a short time, people will come back and try it out with the queirks, but then they realise basically nothing bigger changed and will drop them again.
Especially when people stop playing urbies, which atm will probably be a subjective buff for quirked mechs as easy targets on the battlefield.

Edited by Lily from animove, 07 April 2015 - 06:42 AM.

[Ultimax]

Hi Mike,

So I think this is a better step forward than the first pass.

However some things to consider and iron out because I don't feel like we're there yet.

This applies to all the mechs in this pass but I'll use the Warhawk which is one of my favorite clan mechs as an example.

I’ll try to keep this brief because there is so much to actually cover, but I think one example should be enough.


WHK-Prime Arms
The problem I see here, is that two options are offered:



OPTION 1: Take both Prime arms and combine the quirks for a mild benefit.

I call this mild because +15% velocity is not enough to actually make me want to invest heavily into CERPPCs.
They will still be bad at long ranged sniping, which is exactly what their purpose should be and they are extremely hot at short ranges when you can’t always maintain cover in a skirmish or brawl. (which is fine as they aren't brawl weapons - but the risk/reward balance is insufficient as taking them into a brawl is a risk)

The other “buff” is -8% heat generation.

-25% heat gen is not sufficient to run 3 ERPPCs on something like a TDR-9S or an AWS-9M, so now as a player I’d be expected to run 4 of them (or at least both prime arms) to even get -8% heat and +15% velocity.


OPTION 2: Only take one prime arm, which is much more realistic as a build choice.

The problem here is that now I’m stuck with quirks that are so minor that they have no real effect on the build. The full +15% velocity and -8% heat aren't even enough to be that significant and now I'm only getting half of that.

7.5% velocity and -4% heat gen is not going to see me switch from lasers back to CERPPCs on the Warhawk.

My Warhawk is not improved, and has what I would call “placebo” quirks.




The goal here IMO, should be to improve what these mechs can do so they are more appealing than mechs that have clear advantages over them or to clearly address issues in their design such as locked gear or bad geometry.

I think there is also a separate goal that is working at cross-puproses, and that’s where PGI is trying to lock full "total" bonuses into specific omni-pod combinations that may or may not actually be optimal.



The problem is that these mechs are already sub-optimal even if you take their most optimal configurations.

Forcing them into even less optimal configurations, doesn’t actually improve them.
It's like purposefully taking two steps back so your build can then take one step forward.




On a more specific note, the Warhawk has big STs and fairly low arms.

The higher values of +Armor/Structure should be on the STs as these are the places people target.

You might lose an arm here and there - but for every time you lose am arm while torso twisting there will be 20 other times where you lose an ST first.

It's a similar size and shape as the Dire Wolf, but it's missing the extra armor and stare down firepower of that 100 ton mech - and unlike the Dire Wolf it is much more restricted in where it can slot items due to all of the locked DHS.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 April 2015 - 06:54 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Ultimatum X, on 07 April 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

, and has what I would call “placebo” quirks.

this is the perfect description for 80% of the quirks that are on all the tables we got. They are pointless palcebo quirks.

And on top of this the entire omnipod tech was killed, because People now, additionally to the pods, will have to take individual CT quirks into consideration, meaning we now even have suboptimal and better Omnipod CT's which basically kills a few "CT-chassis" on clanside.

[Talos7]

Yay! Finally my Nova gets some lovin!

[Kuritaclan]

Lily from animove, on 07 April 2015 - 06:55 AM, said:

this is the perfect description for 80% of the quirks that are on all the tables we got. They are pointless palcebo quirks.

And on top of this the entire omnipod tech was killed, because People now, additionally to the pods, will have to take individual CT quirks into consideration, meaning we now even have suboptimal and better Omnipod CT's which basically kills a few "CT-chassis" on clanside.

And therefore quirks should not have be done it first place but rather free endo/ff/dhs/jj for the poors first and the quirks as polish.

Btu now it is over i guess, since the work was made they get paid for it, so it would be double work to do it again just do admit they did badly.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 07 April 2015 - 09:31 AM.