150 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

DavidHurricane, on 07 April 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

One: Do you want money/XP or stock Mech matches?
Two: I'm opposed to wasting time and resources on a game mode you can make yourself using a tool already at your disposal. Play Stock Mechs for fun and play the normal queue for money.

Would you find the opposite reasonable? That you only earned money in stock mode and had to play customised mechs only in private matches? If the answer is no then you know exactly how you sound to people who wants stock mode.

Obviously you want to be able to enjoy automatic ELO matchmaking, cbill rewards and so in your preferred game mode.

Quote

Also, forcing the loadout on the Mech first requires getting the Mech, then loading it up in the queue even though the player doesn't have it, then at the end not allowing the player to take a Mech. There's an opportunity for hackers there, if you're tech/code smart enough I'll let you pick it out,

When dropping in the stock queue, the game could simply drop any mech you pick in it's stock configuration regardless of how it was customised. In other words, you wouldn't have to keep any stock mechs around to play stock mode.

[STEF_]

DavidHurricane, on 07 April 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

They have other things to do and, believe it or not, those who want a stock only game mode built in are probably the minority of the game.

I'd use it if they made it, sure. But it'd be a pain in the rear to code and implement, and there are better uses of time and resources.

What code and implement and resources are you talking about?
Are you kidding?

adding stock mode option in "ready/launch" button, and server checking mech loadout.
That's all.
How many months of coding do you think are needed? years, maybe?

[Jack Corban]

DavidHurricane, on 07 April 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

I raised a new question a while ago that has yet to be answered satisfactorily:

Why should PGI devote resources to stock mode?

Because its a new Experience that is actually fun and has been tested for ages before Mech Warrior online even came into existence. And because there is people like me that want it in the game. And because its a good way to learn the game in an enviroment that does not change all the time before going into the wolrd of Customizing if they so wish. And because there is People that backed this game that are Hardcore Battletech Fans that would like some return on the Support they have given in a way they have imagined from the beginning. So there are your reasons. One of them should suffice now shut it.

[Sjorpha]

Stefka Kerensky, on 07 April 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

What code and implement and resources are you talking about?
Are you kidding?

adding stock mode option in "ready/launch" button, and server checking mech loadout.
That's all.
How many months of coding do you think are needed? years, maybe?

There is a lot more work involved in making a new game mode than you might think. I do think stock mode would be a worthwhile investment, so I agree with you it should be done, but don't pretend like it wouldn't take a significant investment.

Splitting the queue is a real problem as well, whether you like it or not. There are already a very problematic number of splits for our limited player base. If stock mode is implemented it would be a good idea to reduce choice for the other modes a bit to prevent a matchmaker collapse.

[Barantor]

Steam is coming, so if they don't do something to make the game have less of a learning curve the reviews on there will kill this game.

It's like stock car racing, the better driver wins and it might be boring to some, but it is still a thing.

It doesn't hurt F1 that Nascar exists and neither will it hurt MWO if it has a stock mode.

If you are complaining about balance and have not played several matches in stock mondays then you don't have the experience necessary to form an informed opinion on the matter. I have and stock mechs vs stock mechs are fine.

I like customizing my mechs, I also like the battletech lore and the stock loadouts. Having more options to play a game usually results in a wider scope of players, which isn't a bad thing.

[990Dreams]

Stefka Kerensky, on 07 April 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

What code and implement and resources are you talking about?
Are you kidding?

adding stock mode option in "ready/launch" button, and server checking mech loadout.
That's all.
How many months of coding do you think are needed? years, maybe?

I removed the note about code implementation, the system I thought was needed was in place.

Also, you've clearly never coded outside Scratch maybe? It wouldn't take that long, but, once again, why should it be on the front burner when there are other things to do that should be done?

Jack Corban, on 07 April 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

Because its a new Experience that is actually fun and has been tested for ages before Mech Warrior online even came into existence.

And because there is people like me that want it in the game.

And because its a good way to learn the game in an enviroment that does not change all the time before going into the wolrd of Customizing if they so wish.

And because there is People that backed this game that are Hardcore Battletech Fans that would like some return on the Support they have given in a way they have imagined from the beginning.

So there are your reasons. One of them should suffice now shut it.

1: So TT again. Just cause it worked on TT doesn't mean it will work in a computer game. Two totally different things, and you need to get with what we're dealing with: a computer game.

2: "I want it so give it to me because I am the only person who's opinion matters." The number of people who think this is a priority is low, and PGI has no reason to invest anything in the minority opinion when the majority opinion agrees there's bigger issues.

3: It is a good way to learn how to control a chassis and shoot. Then you have to learn everything else on top of custom configurations, and it'd be more overwhelming than if you just started in the normal queue

4: "I want it because I payed money and that makes me king of the company so give me what I want." Again, just cause you paid money for the game and consider yourself a "HARDCORE BATTLETECH ENTHUSIAST !!1" doesn't mean you get priority. I don't get priority because I paid for it, neither do you.

5: None of those reasons satisfy my question: How is it good for a new player to start in stock v/ stock only to have to relearn everything except how to move and shoot when they enter the custom queue?

Edited by DavidHurricane, 07 April 2015 - 09:46 AM.

[990Dreams]

Sjorpha, on 07 April 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

There is a lot more work involved in making a new game mode than you might think. I do think stock mode would be a worthwhile investment, so I agree with you it should be done, but don't pretend like it wouldn't take a significant investment.

As I've stated. And as I've also stated, there are more important things to invest in:

• MM tweaks
  
• Minor CW balancing
  
• Make CW less boring
  
• Weapon tweaks
  
• Mechs, Gamemodes, and Maps after that

Edited by DavidHurricane, 07 April 2015 - 09:48 AM.

[Jack Corban]

DavidHurricane, on 07 April 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

I removed the note about code implementation, the system I thought was needed was in place.

Also, you've clearly never coded outside Scratch maybe? It wouldn't take that long, but, once again, why should it be on the front burner when there are other things to do that should be done?

1: So TT again. Just cause it worked on TT doesn't mean it will work in a computer game. Two totally different things, and you need to get with what we're dealing with: a computer game.

2: "I want it so give it to me because I am the only person who's opinion matters." The number of people who think this is a priority is low, and PGI has no reason to invest anything in the minority opinion when the majority opinion agrees there's bigger issues.

3: It is a good way to learn how to control a chassis and shoot. Then you have to learn everything else on top of custom configurations, and it'd be more overwhelming than if you just started in the normal queue

4: "I want it because I payed money and that makes me king of the company so give me what I want." Again, just cause you paid money for the game and consider yourself a "HARDCORE BATTLETECH ENTHUSIAST !!1" doesn't mean you get priority. I don't get priority because I paid for it, neither do you.

5: None of those reasons satisfy my question: How is it good for a new player to start in stock v/ stock only to have to relearn everything except how to move and shoot when they enter the custom queue?

No not in TT in every other MW game. And you know what i should have a say in where MWO is going so should everyone else that paid. So do not undermine this. And I said there is others like me that wish for this not just me and this thread proves that.

Actually thats is why you are still here isn't it.
Because you don't want it to become a thing.

So go one post your stupid responses all you want you have been demasked for what you are long before this post. Have fun. I'm done with you.

Edited by Jack Corban, 07 April 2015 - 09:51 AM.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

DavidHurricane, on 07 April 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

Why should PGI devote resources to stock mode?

It was already answered, probably several times.
It is the the only and the cheapest way to bring back BT fans and those that actually founded game back then in the time and abandoned this game in masses. That alone is worth an afford.

[FupDup]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 07 April 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

We play stock for more then a year now. And we know that 3025 TRO stock games are the most balanced, fun and battletechish experience that MWO can offer. Please come out with specific mechs as you say. In our experience just all mechs are viable and decent enough, but please try. As already countless times in other threads I argued just same. You clearly don`t know what are you talking about, we don`t guess, we not presume, we not think. The damn thing was tested count less times by now and we simply KNOW it.

To the OP.
We have tested original armor values. Its not fitting at all to triple RoF we got in MWO.
With original structure and armor, original RoF must go then, that mean 1 shot per 10s, ready to try that?
In my opinion, stock mode just needs 2x ammo from BT value to match 2x structure, armor and of course quirk off, as balance is just perfect without it and they are made to somehow control full custom madness we got.
Weapon stats needs to go back to original again too, like damage, heat, range. As they where tweaked to match full custom madness as well.

Here's a post I made a while ago with various stock mech comparisons:

FupDup, on 02 April 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

LCT-1M
Giving IS all the numbers in the world can't redeem that build. It's unusable and can be critically damaged by just a single Medium Laser hit.

GRF-1N
GRF-3M
GRF-1S
The 3M and 1S stomp the 1N pretty hard in nearly every way.

SHD-2H
SHD-5M
SHD-2D2
SHD-2D
5M is the clear winner of the group, having DHS, Endo, and XL.


CPLT-A1
LRMs only with only average ammo and no backup guns...lol.

CPLT-C1
Much better, even if you can't fire many salvos back-to-back.

CPLT-C4
Still beats the A1 for the most part.

CPLT-K2
Probably the best of the stock Catapults, with better longevity (energy weapons) and it can keep up its fire longer (20 SHS = 10 DHS, which is playable).


CDA-2A
What the heck, is this a Protomech?

CDA-3M
The winner of the stock Cicadas, even if it's still extremely fragile.


For Clans:
GAR-PRIME
One of the worst stock builds ever made, full stop.

GAR-D
Probably the best stock Gargles.

SCR-PRIME
It's pretty self-explanatory.

MLX-PRIME
What is this I don't even...

MLX-A
Dear god they managed to make this one worse than the Prime. I didn't even think that was possible...

MLX-B
The best stock Mist Lynx most likely, stomps the Prime and A into the ground.

MLX-C
This one is actually usable (compared to the other MLX's at least) as well. Beats the Prime and A easily.


WHK-PRIME
Drop it like it's hot, drop it like it's hot, drop it like it's hot...

WHK-C
Beats the Prime because of heat efficiency, not to mention CLPL > CERPPC.


I can do this for more mechs but I'm getting bored and don't want to spend hours compiling a list of stock mech inequalities. The point is, there are massive power gaps within each faction's stock builds, with very clear winners and losers. I'd argue that the distinction would be even more clear than it is with our current rather open Mechlab.

Those are the only ones I bothered with at the moment because going through every chassis would take a while...


I think the reason that people seem to report "balance" in the stock events isn't because of actual balance, but because of the types of people that the events attract.

To put it bluntly, people who attend stock events are less likely to have the "Play to Win" mindset than people running around in other queues. They don't look for things that give them a competitive advantage over other players, they just grab whatever looks cool or gives them romantic feelings. They aren't as concerned with their combat effectiveness, so they're less likely to analyze the advantages of some builds and are less likely to use the most effective builds they can find.


Honestly, if you think the stock Gargoyle Prime is balanced and competitive against any other Gargoyle variant, or even most other Clan mechs, or even some IS stocks, you need to take off the rose-tinted glasses. Do you think any stock medium (or even many heavies) for either faction can compete against Stormcrow Prime? How the hell is a Locust with almost zero armor viable? Etc.

Edited by FupDup, 07 April 2015 - 09:53 AM.

[Sjorpha]

DavidHurricane, on 07 April 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

As I've stated. And as I've also stated, there are more important things to invest in:

• MM tweaks
  
• Minor CW balancing
  
• Make CW less boring
  
• Weapon tweaks
  
• Mechs, Gamemodes, and Maps after that

I agree from a personal standpoint that those things are more important.

But I also think that, like the Urbanmech, stock mode would be a profitable investment in terms of business and community goodwill. There are a lot of people who want it.

And it would be a good place for newbies as well, with no pressure to min max they could just focus on learning the game with a slower pace and higher TTK. That alone is a good argument for stock mode IMO, NPE is one of the major problems this game has.

[Barantor]

DavidHurricane, on 07 April 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

How is it good for a new player to start in stock v/ stock only to have to relearn everything except how to move and shoot when they enter the custom queue?

Initially it lets the players only have to worry about learning to control their mech, how heat management works and with mechs like the PPC or LRM mechs, how those minimum ranges come into play. They don't have to worry about having a bunch of modules and fighting folks that do have those.

The mechlab, much as certain customization options are in other games needs to be brought in a bit at a time to new players so that it is easy to grasp before adding other things.

In my opinion, the stock mode would let them battle others without having to worry about mechlab, skills, modules or mastering mechs.

The next part would show them about buying another mech and how it works by mastering 3 mechs etc. and then putting keeping them in a stock environment.

Once they had that down and a lot of c-bills it could go on to the mechlab and how that work as well as showing them things like hero and champion mechs and how those are different.

Once the mechlab was shown they could choose to continue to fight in the stock matches or open up the full monty on the customized mech queue and CW.

This would ease them into the game and not throw a ton of things at someone who may have never played any BT/MW game at all.

If this goes to steam and new players are still thrown to the lions and CW still sucks then this game will have horrible reviews and it might be the end of it.


Stock gamemode hurts nothing and while I agree CW should be done first, if stock mode was rolled into the new player experience like I described it would enhance the game.

[990Dreams]

Jack Corban, on 07 April 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

No not in TT in every other MW game.

And you know what i should have a say in where MWO is going so does everyone lse that paid. So do not undermine this.

And I said there is others like me that wish for this not just me and this thread proves that.

Actually thats is why you are still here isn't it

Because you don't want it to become a thing so go one post your stupid responses all you want you have been demasked for what you are long before this post. Have fun. I'm done with you.

1: Every other MechWarrior game had customization and customized Mechs were superior to stock Mechs.

2: Every player, whether they paid or not, has a say. And Stock Mode has a small playerbase that really wants it.

3: Others have wished for it but that doesn't make the playerbase bigger, just older.

4: I'm here because I want a valid reason as to why new players should have a stock mode.

5: I have said I don't care if it is added. But I think it is,at this time, not a good use of resources.

Jaeger Gonzo, on 07 April 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

It was already answered, probably several times.
It is the the only and the cheapest way to bring back BT fans and those that actually founded game back then in the time and abandoned this game in masses. That alone is worth an afford.

Most of the people that founded the game are annoying and think that because they paid $120 dollars they own stock in the company. They whined and complained and many got banned.

I could care less about the Founders. Answer my question that I've been asking:

DavidHurricane, on 07 April 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

How is it good for a new player to start in stock v/ stock only to have to relearn everything except how to move and shoot when they enter the custom queue?

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Man I cant help you. You are an idiot. I am sorry, but real, we just can`t help. It was several times already explained to you and you still coming out with same weak bs. Comparing lvl tech 1 with lvl tech 2 and bringing even clans to this. Go read something on Sarna or something and dont bother us if you don`t know sh/it about subject we are talking about.

[Jack Corban]

FupDup, on 07 April 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

Here's a post I made a while ago with various stock mech comparisons:



Those are the only ones I bothered with at the moment because going through every chassis would take a while...


I think the reason that people seem to report "balance" in the stock events isn't because of actual balance, but because of the types of people that the events attract.

To put it bluntly, people who attend stock events are less likely to have the "Play to Win" mindset than people running around in other queues. They don't look for things that give them a competitive advantage over other players, they just grab whatever looks cool or gives them romantic feelings. They aren't as concerned with their combat effectiveness, so they're less likely to analyze the advantages of some builds and are less likely to use the most effective builds they can find.

Honestly, if you think the stock Gargoyle Prime is balanced and competitive against any other Gargoyle variant, or even most other Clan mechs, or even some IS stocks, you need to take off the rose-tinted glasses. Do you think any stock medium (or even many heavies) for either faction can compete against Stormcrow Prime? Etc.

Those romantic feelings are what paid for this entire game. So mind you.

And no the people that play Stockmechs are just as competetive as other players. Ask Jaeger Gonzo. He wrecks stuff in his Stock Dragon and runs away laughing his ass of.

Stock just requires some more thinking about what your mech is capable of and what its not. On top of that you have to aim carefully to make your limited supply of ammo count. What good are 14 AC/20 Shots if you miss 12.

What you forget is that Mechs like the SHD-5M is a Tech 2 Mech and of course thats a better mech then a Tech 1 Mech. Thats good and right. Stockmode requires those mechs to be put in different queues. Tech 1 and Tech 2.

And believe me when i tell you in Stockmode you can play every Mech and make a difference. And if you don't believe me join the Stock Mech Mondays and see for your selfe.

[990Dreams]

Barantor, on 07 April 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

Initially it lets the players only have to worry about learning to control their mech, how heat management works and with mechs like the PPC or LRM mechs, how those minimum ranges come into play. They don't have to worry about having a bunch of modules and fighting folks that do have those.

The mechlab, much as certain customization options are in other games needs to be brought in a bit at a time to new players so that it is easy to grasp before adding other things.

In my opinion, the stock mode would let them battle others without having to worry about mechlab, skills, modules or mastering mechs.

The next part would show them about buying another mech and how it works by mastering 3 mechs etc. and then putting keeping them in a stock environment.

Once they had that down and a lot of c-bills it could go on to the mechlab and how that work as well as showing them things like hero and champion mechs and how those are different.

Once the mechlab was shown they could choose to continue to fight in the stock matches or open up the full monty on the customized mech queue and CW.

This would ease them into the game and not throw a ton of things at someone who may have never played any BT/MW game at all.

If this goes to steam and new players are still thrown to the lions and CW still sucks then this game will have horrible reviews and it might be the end of it.

Stock gamemode hurts nothing and while I agree CW should be done first, if stock mode was rolled into the new player experience like I described it would enhance the game.

THANK YOU! You sufficiently answered a question that no one else could answer.

New priority list:

• Little more CW balance
  
• MM Tweaks
  
• Make CW less boring
  
• Stock Mode
  
• Misc. game modes, maps, Mechs, etc.
  
• Steam

Jaeger Gonzo, on 07 April 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

Man I cant help you. You are an idiot. I am sorry, but real, we just can`t help. It was several times already explained to you and you still coming out with same weak bs. Comparing lvl tech 1 with lvl tech 2 and bringing even clans to this. Go read something on Sarna or something and dont bother us if you don`t know sh/it about subject we are talking about.

You didn't answer my question, you gave me a bunch of vague BS. Barantor answered my question.

Problems resolved. I'm leaving. Thanks again to Barantor for actually being helpful.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 07 April 2015 - 10:02 AM.

[FupDup]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 07 April 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

Man I cant help you. You are an idiot. I am sorry, but real, we just can`t help. It was several times already explained to you and you still coming out with same weak bs. Comparing lvl tech 1 with lvl tech 2 and bringing even clans to this. Go read something on Sarna or something and dont bother us if you don`t know sh/it about subject we are talking about.

Why can't I bring tech levels and factions into this? Those are stock builds too you know. You're starting to sound like one of those purists that hates everything ever added to Battletech beyond 3025.


But to take the bait, there's also imbalances in even 3025 tech.

For example, the Griffin 1N and 1S are both tech 1 mechs, and the 1S variant is pretty easily superior. The big advantage is that it swaps out the PPC for lasers. Laser are superior to PPCs, because they do damage within 90 meters, don't have slow projectile speeds, and do more total damage (albeit DoT). The 4 extra heatsinks also allow it to sustain its fire a little bit longer. When it runs out of LRM ammo, it also has more backup energy firepower than the 1N. It's a better variant.

There's also that Locust 1M, with only 32 armor points spread across its entire body. Not to mention a very crappy loadout of 2 LRM5 with only 1 ton of ammo. It's just trash that can be stomped by virtually any other mech in the game, even any other stock. Well, except maybe the Mist Lynx variant that has only MGs and Flamers, that might be a closer fight.

The Catapult K2 is pretty easily better than the other Cats because of ammo independence and more armor.

The Jagermech just has garbage armor, which will get it blown apart quickly by people that know what they're doing. It's also equipped with AC/2s, which are bad weapons.

The Banshee 3E has the firepower of some mediums...

The Spider 5V is absolutely terrible, equipped with only 2 Medium Lasers and paper armor. I guess it beats some Locust variants, but that's not really an accomplishment to be proud of.

The Cicada 2A is equipped with 2 Medium Lasers, 1 Small Laser, and cardboard armor...it's just bad. The 2B is even worse because it has a Flamer in place of the Small Laser, and even LESS armor.

In general, most mediums in 3025 tend to be at the same speed as heavy mechs, while having less armor and less firepower (on average). Most of them are basically direct downgrades with no advantages. Most Blackjacks and Vindicators are especially guilty of this.

The newly added Grasshopper probably beats a large number of IS 3025 stocks because of having good armor, good speed for a heavy at the time, and decent laser vomit firepower with the heatsinks to handle it (at least somewhat).


I'm bored at this point so I'll pause it here. I actually went through and gave specific reasons as to why some stock builds were superior or inferior to others, while the only reasoning you've used is "But I was THERE man, I totally know it! It's all true because of reasons and I said so!"

That's not good enough to make an actual argument. You have to actually analyze the specific strengths and weaknesses of each chassis/variant to determine how they stack up against each other. For example, find me reasons to use that Locust 1M over any other mech.

Edited by FupDup, 07 April 2015 - 10:18 AM.

[STEF_]

DavidHurricane, on 07 April 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

It wouldn't take that long, but, once again, why should it be on the front burner when there are other things to do that should be done?

Because the more options available the better.

[Bobzilla]

Just start with making a solaris mode to have a stock only category.

Not only force stock configs, but also force no skills or mods.
Allow players to pick any tech 1 mech if they own it or not.

Ultimate equalizer mode.
Fun for the 'romantics' and competitors (stock tourney dur).

The extra work wouldn't be much if they are already making a solaris mode, and also not split the numbers anymore than already planned.

Also if it's PT or MC price to enter, it pays for itself, but maybe not a good idea to put behind a paywall.




Are all stocks equal, no. But a lot more equal than a fun build/trial vs someones meta build.

[CyclonerM]

I totally support a stock mode. It should be divided into Tech 1 and 2 (3025 and 3050+ , quiaff?) but it should be Clan vs IS, a Star of Clan 'Mechs vs a company of IS 'Mechs, so we can experience the real invasion