150 replies to this topic

[Rhaythe]

cdlord, on 07 April 2015 - 08:06 AM, said:

Stop feeding the troll. He's been at it on several other threads with his unconstructive negativity. I think he's just afraid we'll ruin his personal meta.

Can't... help... it...!!!

DavidHurricane, on 07 April 2015 - 08:09 AM, said:

It's trolling to recognize better use of resources than making a game mode that few people actually want?

I've itemized several reasons why a stock queue would be an improvement to the game in general, ESPECIALLY because of the new player experience, which would be *vital* for this game going to Steam. Most of your arguments have boiled down to "I want my Mechlab", which at no point have we insinuated that it should go away.

In any case, you disagree. Such is your right. But it's hard to refute that there is a significant benefit to a stock mode, even if an unknown percentage of the main queue would not play it.

[Palor]

I really dislike all specific weapon quirks, they just force a pilot to use that weapon to gain an advantage. This just forces all those mechs to be the same build or bust.

[Rhaythe]

E Rommel, on 07 April 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

I did read the thread, and it's a bunch of nonsense. People are pretending that all stock mechs are balanced with each other when this is blatantly not the case.

3025 stocks are, indeed, very closed to balanced. Your insinuation is wrong. I'm sorry. We have a year of Stock Mech Monday matches to prove it.

[Jack Corban]

E Rommel, on 07 April 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

The only stock mechs thay are even close to usable are Clan energy boats (Nova Prime, Stormcrow Prime, Warhawk Prime).

Everything else? Oh, have fun with that one ton of ammo you have for your single AC10.

Stock mode wouldn't be remotely close to balanced. Clan energy boats would absolutely dominate, while everything the IS has would just go cry in a corner because of single heat sinks. This would be doubly true if you buffed all dubs to truedubs, because in a stock mode only Clans would get that buff.

Do people even think about the consequences of these suggestions at all? I can tell you, I accidentally dropped in a stock HBK-4P once. I had two in my garage, one was a (C) trial and the other was a fresh purchase that I hadn't bought gear for yet. I clicked the wrong one. It didn't end well.

Thats where a Tech 1 and Tech 2 Split comes in. If you don't know what that is either read the Thread again or go to Sarna.net and find out by reading.

DavidHurricane, on 07 April 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

One: Do you want money/XP or stock Mech matches?
Two: I'm opposed to wasting time and resources on a game mode you can make yourself using a tool already at your disposal. Play Stock Mechs for fun and play the normal queue for money.



If one is a Dire Wolf and the other isn't than what is the other one? That's like saying that because men aren't women they aren't human or vise versa. Or like saying that because humans are different than apes we aren't still technically animals.

"Dire Wolf" or "DWF" is a label that encompasses all chassis in their prime configuration and variations there of, because they are derivatives of a base chassis.

Also, forcing the loadout on the Mech first requires getting the Mech, then loading it up in the queue even though the player doesn't have it, then at the end not allowing the player to take a Mech. There's an opportunity for hackers there, if you're tech/code smart enough I'll let you pick it out,

First of not everyone has 23 Friends online to play a Privat Match all the time.

Second a Mech is not defined by the chassis. In Battletech there was a Rule to build your own mechs. But neither were those canon nor were those called Hunchback, Dire Wolf ..... you get the point.

IS Mechs have allways been build aroound the Weapons the utalize. They are Hardwired into the Chassis and the Chassis looks like it does because of that. Hunchback, Hollander, Catapult to name a few.

Clan Mechs are Omnimechs and thus they have complete parts that are able to be replaced as a whole ie. Left torso, or Right arm you call it. But never only one part. allways the whole set. Thus making it nothing more then a variant of the mech. Like IS mechs have. Just that for Clanmechs the structure underlying did not have to be completly rebuild they just exchanged Pods with a given variant.

What you say is if i take this pod and this pod and you rip out the weapons and then put in this and that ammo plus this system that = a "Variant" of the Mech you used as groundwork. And That is simply put wrong. Its is doable in this Game yes but its neither canon nor will it ever be. So don't come along and advertise somthing as a direwolf that is not. End of story.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

E Rommel, on 07 April 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

The only stock mechs thay are even close to usable are Clan energy boats (Nova Prime, Stormcrow Prime, Warhawk Prime).

Everything else? Oh, have fun with that one ton of ammo you have for your single AC10.

Stock mode wouldn't be remotely close to balanced. Clan energy boats would absolutely dominate, while everything the IS has would just go cry in a corner because of single heat sinks. This would be doubly true if you buffed all dubs to truedubs, because in a stock mode only Clans would get that buff.

Do people even think about the consequences of these suggestions at all? I can tell you, I accidentally dropped in a stock HBK-4P once. I had two in my garage, one was a (C) trial and the other was a fresh purchase that I hadn't bought gear for yet. I clicked the wrong one. It didn't end well.

How about you just try to

Edited by Jaeger Gonzo, 07 April 2015 - 08:19 AM.

[SkyHammyr]

Quirkless Stock Mode would be a Godsend to the New Player Experience for this game.
I'm seriously trying to see a downside, but I honestly think this would be a great thing for New and Veteran Players alike.

Edited by SkyHammr, 07 April 2015 - 08:25 AM.

[Rhaythe]

SkyHammr, on 07 April 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

Quirkless Stock Mode would be a Godsend to the New Player Experience for this game.
I'm seriously trying to see a downside, but I honestly think this would be a great thing for New and Veteran Players.

Very much so. The boon from having a place to learn the game, avoid the meta, and not being forced to spend C-bills is just what a new player in this game needs. Subjecting new players to the public queue as the game stands in its current form is almost cruel. I can only imagine the number of players we lost during the poptart era because of this.

[Jack Corban]

E Rommel, on 07 April 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

I did read the thread, and it's a bunch of nonsense. People are pretending that all stock mechs are balanced with each other when this is blatantly not the case.

OP is a clanner of course, so apparently he has no idea just how bad IS stock mechs are. You can drop in a stock Stormcrow Prime or Nova Prime and do decently as long as you don't land on a hot map. Try that with any IS mech and you'll get your teeth kicked in.

A couple people suggested segregating IS from Clans, but that still doesn't help at all because the factions are not balanced internally! Just look at the stock Cicada, it's pathetic even by IS standards. There is a reason the mechs all have different Battle Values: because they're not balanced for even-numbered teams, and they are most certainly not balanced ton for ton.

Um by the way i have played As Kurita for most of this games lifecycle and i have people on this forums that can vouche for it. To assume i want stockmode for my clanmechs to shine is just BS. I have more IS Mechs then i have Clan Mechs. And i Have alot of mechs. And you know what? I run em Stock. Every last one of them. So cheers.

[Tarogato]

Rhaythe, on 07 April 2015 - 07:01 AM, said:

There's a difference between a "Stock Mode" and a "3025 Stock Mode". What OP wants (and he's not alone) is the 3025 version.

I've said this (a lot) before, but I'll go into it again. 3025 stock queues would have the following benefits:

• Provide a game mode that truly is a BattleTech Game™.
  
• Offer a learning ground for new players to discover game mechanics before being thrust into Meta Warfare
  
• Offer better C-Bill earnings, as mech customization is not A Thing™.
  
• Prevent boating
  
• Increase Time to Kill drastically
  
• Provide a place for lesser-used mechs to shine (seriously; the Locust can be a dangerous foe in stocks)
  
• Offer an avenue to incorporate a storyline into Mechwarrior Online beyond the "It's sorta-kinda 3051, so shoot clanners!"

The new player benefit of a 3025 queue alone would make the mode worthwhile.

This is golden.

DavidHurricane, on 07 April 2015 - 07:33 AM, said:

You're new here aren't you.

Customization has been the heart of BattleTech/MechWarrior for a long time because players can tune their choice of Mech to fit their roles to their needs.

And if you're suggesting a stock-only game mode, it's called Private Matches and/or Stock Mech Mondays. You should try it some time.

Customisation has been the ruining factor of balance ever since it was introduced in a Mechwarrior game. I'm not saying stock mechs are balanced, but I am saying that custom loadouts are inherently more imbalanced. Actually, customisation isn't the cornerstone of Battletech. Battletech is built around the stock mechs, the purposes and roles those mechs are equipped for, and the battle values that represent their worth on the battlefield.

Stock matches in MWO are broken, so no, you can't just play stock in Private Matches. There are several glaring issues that prevent it from being a worthwhile experience:

• you have to own seperate dedicated stock mechs
  
• quirks completely ruin stock balance
  
• pilot skill tree makes stock mechs more powerful than they should be

A stock queue would be excellent for the new player experience. Yeah, it would split the playerbase, but I think it's manageable come time for Steam release to come around when we'll have an influx of new players. Barring that, a switch to turn on "Stock mode" in Private Matches would be nice. This switch would turn off quirks and skills, and launch any mech you own as a stock build, no matter how you have it built.

[Jack Corban]

Or you can just handle it like it do. Play ever Mech stock. Celebrate the **** out of every Kill and if you get killed it was a low skill customized noob boat. At least that way you don't rage. And you know a good pilot can play any Mech. But it is true what you say never the less.

[ROSS-128]

Rhaythe, on 07 April 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

3025 stocks are, indeed, very closed to balanced. Your insinuation is wrong. I'm sorry. We have a year of Stock Mech Monday matches to prove it.

Except they're not at all. The Atlas and Banshee were both built before 3025. Just how much do you think that Banshee will get done with its single AC5?

The Hunchback and Cicada were both built before 3025. How well do you think that Cicada will do with a standard engine and only 10-20 armor on most components?

I'll give you a hint, the Hunchback has around 1000 BV, the Cicada has around 600.

This thread is just chock full of nonsense, emotional fallacies, and wishful thinking.

[990Dreams]

Tarogato, on 07 April 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

A stock queue would be excellent for the new player experience.

Are you INSANE?

Players would finally learn to deal with stock Mechs. Wheeee! Happy-super-good-fun-time! Then they'd have to learn how to deal with custom loadouts.

It'd be like when the Clans first came in. They'd get wrecked. They'd come here and whine and complain. It would be good for the new playerbase in no way, especially because all stock Mechs aren't created equal. They'd learn about metagame way to early, and if they're anything like most people I know here, they'd get ticked off about it.

Jack Corban, on 07 April 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

First of not everyone has 23 Friends online to play a Privat Match all the time.

Second a Mech is not defined by the chassis. In Battletech there was a Rule to build your own mechs. But neither were those canon nor were those called Hunchback, Dire Wolf ..... you get the point.

IS Mechs have allways been build aroound the Weapons the utalize. They are Hardwired into the Chassis and the Chassis looks like it does because of that. Hunchback, Hollander, Catapult to name a few.

... [not relevant]

What you say is if i take this pod and this pod and you rip out the weapons and then put in this and that ammo plus this system that = a "Variant" of the Mech you used as groundwork. And That is simply put wrong. Its is doable in this Game yes but its neither canon nor will it ever be. So don't come along and advertise somthing as a direwolf that is not. End of story.

First, that's your problem. I have probably 24+ people online most of the time on my friend list. Get a Stock Mech player-group together. Put in an effort yourself and stop relying on PGI to do everything for you.

Second a Mech to me is defined by a chassis the same way a species is defined by a genus. I'm scientifically minded, so that'd how I work. I guess it's the difference of thought pattern there, and isn't worth arguing about anyways.

Third, my Dire Wolf, even modified, is derivative of the DWF. Same way Lupus is derivative of Canis. It's the way I think v/s the way you think, and there's no point in continuing further in that debate.

Rhaythe, on 07 April 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

I've itemized several reasons why a stock queue would be an improvement to the game in general, ESPECIALLY because of the new player experience, which would be *vital* for this game going to Steam.

There's no benefit to stock mode for new players. They'd master the crappy stock loadouts and then have to learn to deal with custom loadouts. Its like comparing apples to oranges. (Oranges are better.) They're two totally different things.

Prove to me that playing only stock and then having to learn about custom loadouts and how to combat them is a good thing. But I've done the new player experience, and even with custom loadouts it's hard.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 07 April 2015 - 08:50 AM.

[SkyHammyr]

Guys, it's not like they're asking for Stock Mode to replace any of the other game modes.
The request is to -ADD- stock mode as a game mode. Nobody would have to play it if they don't want to, just as many don't play Conquest or CW if they don't want to.

Let's face it, the game seriously needs more Game Modes, anyway. Any resources devoted to making more things to do with the mechs we buy, is not wasted effort.

Edited by SkyHammr, 07 April 2015 - 08:57 AM.

[990Dreams]

SkyHammr, on 07 April 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Let's face it, the game seriously needs more Game Modes, anyway. Any resources devoted to making more things to do with the mechs we but, is not wasted effort.

Game modes, in my opinion, are not of priority at this phase of the game.

Let's face it (and this is coming from me, DavidHurricane the White Knight):

• CW needs to be less boring
  
• Clans in CW need a wee bit more balancing (yeah, I said wee, deal with it)
  
• We could use some new maps and Mechs too
  
• Some weapons need tweaking as well

Edited by DavidHurricane, 07 April 2015 - 08:59 AM.

[Tarogato]

DavidHurricane, on 07 April 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

<stock mode is bad for new players>

What's worse?

A: throw new players in stock mechs in matches where all other players are in stock mechs

B: throw new players in trial mechs* in matches where most other players have optimised mechs

*or in owned mechs that the new player must learn how to build properly, and will likely fail at for more than a hundred games before discovering the resources to guide them to optimised builds

[990Dreams]

[Redacted]

Jack Corban, on 07 April 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

You are wrong in Battletech Mechs are defined by their Loadout.

And variations of those loadouts are called "configurations." By definition of the word, they have relation to their parent initial configuration and are derivative of their parent initial configurations. By Dire Wolf is still a Dire Wolf, it is just a configuration of a Dire Wolf. Like it or not, that is how custom modifications are treated.

Tarogato, on 07 April 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

What's worse?

A: throw new players in stock mechs in matches where all other players are in stock mechs

B: throw new players in trial mechs* in matches where most other players have optimised mechs

*or in owned mechs that the new player must learn how to build properly, and will likely fail at for more than a hundred games before discovering the resources to guide them to optimised builds

Or C: Have a new player only ever know stock Mechs, and then turn their world completely on it's head when they discover custom loadouts. Answer my question already: What the advantage of starting with only stock? You have a liner learning curve right up until you try custom loadouts. Then it gets even steeper than if you just started learning to deal with them in the first place.

An alternative solution: Give the match maker some long needed upgrades including a system designed for pairing new players against people on their level.

Edited by GM Patience, 11 April 2015 - 05:15 PM.

[Jack Corban]

DavidHurricane, on 07 April 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

I never said I was a superior human because I though differently than you, I said there was no point in debating because we think differently. Stop acting like a two year old, because you are.



And variations of those loadouts are called "configurations." By definition of the word, they have relation to their parent initial configuration and are derivative of their parent initial configurations. By Dire Wolf is still a Dire Wolf, it is just a configuration of a Dire Wolf. Like it or not, that is how custom modifications are treated.



Or C: Have a new player only ever know stock Mechs, and then turn their world completely on it's head when they discover custom loadouts. Answer my question already: What the advantage of starting with only stock? You have a liner learning curve right up until you try custom loadouts. Then it gets even steeper than if you just started learning to deal with them in the first place.

An alternative solution: Give the match maker some long needed upgrades including a system designed for pairing new players against people on their level.

You don't get it.

!!!!!There is no Custom configurations in Battletech!!!!!

Except a few hero mechs. And those are one of a Kind.

[990Dreams]

Jack Corban, on 07 April 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

You don't get it.

!!!!!There is no Custom configurations in Battletech!!!!!

Except a few hero mechs. And those are one of a Kind.

Maybe in TT. But guess what? This isn't TT. You don't roll a dice to determine where you hit or what damage you do. Ever since I can remember the MechWarrior games (which isn't very far into the past but still) custom configurations have been a thing.

[Jack Corban]

DavidHurricane, on 07 April 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

Maybe in TT. But guess what? This isn't TT. You don't roll a dice to determine where you hit or what damage you do. Ever since I can remember the MechWarrior games (which isn't very far into the past but still) custom configurations have been a thing.

And they still can be just not with Stock mode what is all i'm asking for why the F are you in here trying to piss all over this request.

Edited by Jack Corban, 07 April 2015 - 09:29 AM.

[990Dreams]

Jack Corban, on 07 April 2015 - 09:29 AM, said:

And they still can be just not with Stock mode what is all i'm asking for why the F are you in here trying to piss all over this request.

I raised a new question a while ago that has yet to be answered satisfactorily:

Why should PGI devote resources to stock mode?