150 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 07 April 2015 - 08:41 PM, said:

I'm trying to convince people that stock mechs aren't the utopia to end all utopias, where cancer and all other ailments known to mankind are cured and humanity lives in peace forever. There are still issues lurking about.

I'm not saying no to the mode itself, I'm saying that it still has some of the issues like "min max" that normal custom mode already has (but instead of min-maxing builds you could only min-max which variant you chose). It's when people make claims like "all mechs can contribute, none are disadvantaged, etc." that I feel the need to step in and correct such statements.

That's true, but the gap between the haves and haves nots, in tier 1? Much narrower.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 April 2015 - 08:43 PM, said:

That's true, but the gap between the haves and haves nots, in tier 1? Much narrower.

I dunno about that...

LCT-1M vs any other light mech (or any other mech, period).

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 07 April 2015 - 08:44 PM, said:

I dunno about that...

LCT-1M vs any other light mech (or any other mech, period).

and there aren't mechs with that big a gap in custom moe? A certain spider, perhaps?

Biggest thing that hurts stock mech mode is the doubled armor, which gimps the ammo on mechs.

[Darlith]

I wouldn't mind having a stock mech mode that wasn't dependant on premium time. I don't really see it happened because well...it sells premium time.

However there are a lot of gaps in power even within the same tech levels and weights
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=67&l=stock
vs
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b#i=114&l=stock

Just as an example, yeah the first has range, but in most matches the second will trash it everytime. Heck I used the second near stock for quite a bit and could have used it stock with ease (I think I moved the ammo around and took out the srm+ammo for a couple more single heatsinks, or maybe it was an ams)

Edit - Note that was use it near stock against fully customized mechs with reasonable success

Edited by Darlith, 07 April 2015 - 11:13 PM.

[Kh0rn]

I Would love too see a more stock like mode for this. Kinda getting fed up with the same mechs with the same builds all the time. Doing things that that mech was not created too do and so on.

[Kh0rn]

E Rommel, on 07 April 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

Well you obviously ran out of arguments a long time ago. Going to pretend your rants about how custom mechs aren't "real Mechwarrior" didn't happen? Or that you haven't repeatedly tried to argue that losing the ability to improve the mechs we get would somehow be "more balanced" because Mechlab OP?

If you're bitter that other people built better mechs than you, how about building better mechs?

The mechlab is pretty much responsible for most of the balance issues. They offered far too much options too customize our mechs which has lead too some over the top meta builds. Custom mechs did feature in lore but the cost involved too do that was huge also you had too have a major factory/refit center too yank out the engine alone due too the engine being the corner stone of all its systems the process was grueling. Only the very wealthy or noble did this. In the end If they just limited hard point sizes and engine's thing would improve a hell of a lot. Frankly I would be all hands down for Stock cause in stock each mech now has its role too perform.

[Quxudica]

Jack Corban, on 07 April 2015 - 05:55 AM, said:

Hi,

I think it is time to talk about Stockmode again.

With the latest quirks rolling out today and after I looked at them i cannot but feel bad.

Nova Prime Largelaser Quirks ? Really on a Medium Laser Boat ? Who the heck thought that would be a good idea.

Edit: Ok apparently i misread that disregard. Never the less Quirks stink to high heaven for most mechs. If they at least pushed quirks on every mech that strengthen its Stock Build but not even that is happening consistently.

Anyhow.

I think we should really take a look at Stock Matches again.

Basically what needs doing is

- make mechs run in stock Configuration
- let them use modules if you must (i don't care either way)
- remove Ghostheat
- Make Double Heatsinks do 2.0 instead of 1.4 Heat reduction
- Remove all quirks from every Mech in stock mode
- seperate Mechs into Tech 1 and Tech 2
- Reduce Armor and Internals back to Tabletop values

Oh look suddenly you have balanced gameplay with every mech viable except maybe the Urban Mech. I'd still rock him though. Why ?

Because:

- Ammo limitations (the real hard hitters are limited use like usually 1 or 2 tons of ammo)
- Mech Builds with an allaround assortment of weapons instead of dedicated MAX Alpha Boats
- The need to pilot your mech with all it's strenghts and all it's flaws. Instead of min-maxing
- This Gamemode would be way better for competitive gameplay because everyone would be on even ground

And to all the people that will inevitably come in here and say that this is untrue and BS

I Challenge you this i take any of my 140 ish Stock Mechs against anything you have concocted up in your "Smurfies" and i will make you sweat in your seats.

I play all my mechs stock for what must have been over a year now. In CW and in Regular queues and i get my 2- 3 Kills nearly every game.

So don't come in here and tell me Stock Mechs can't achieve anything. Because you are outright wrong.

Edit: P.s. Aren't you all as done as i am with these patchwork badaid fixes for fixes for fixes. I mean C'mon give us somthing that is at least a solid ground from which you can attempt balancing.

- Discuss

For stock mode to really shine you'd have to rebuild the heat system and change perfect convergence, but with those changes I think it would be a lot of fun. And you might actually see mechs doing the roles they were designed for, instead of everything being built like an assault.

[Rushin Roulette]

Burktross, on 07 April 2015 - 07:49 AM, said:

Hahahaha...
Hahahahahahaa....
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

THEY'LL NEVER EVEN SEE ME COMING

I beleive a few of my my friends want a few words with you.

[Senor Cataclysmo]

I dunno... sounds pretty boring to me. Half the fun is in customisation and finding builds that work... And as others have already pointed out, it's not going to have the desired effect because some stock mechs are better than others.

[Quxudica]

Senor Cataclysmo, on 08 April 2015 - 01:30 AM, said:

I dunno... sounds pretty boring to me. Half the fun is in customisation and finding builds that work... And as others have already pointed out, it's not going to have the desired effect because some stock mechs are better than others.

The reason some mechs are worse than others is multi-fold:
Alpha Strike is really all that matters, doing as much damage as fast as you can trumps every other build consideration. And Role Warfare is virtually non-existant because of issue number one, on top of there really just being no need for any role that isn't a primary damage dealer in MWO's current state.

Restricting build options, even a little, would help with all of these issues. Some mechs aren't supposed to be primary damage dealers, which is why they are bad since that's all that matters in MWO. Support Gear is virtually non-existant and every piece of support tech is universal except ecm, meaning the mechs that were actually designed to carry that gear as part of their role on the battlefield are just naturally worse. Their designs make concessions for the advantages those items are supposed to give the team. A choice between support and firepower. But what good is that when almost any mech can equip a BAP/NARC/TAG just using spare tonnage with little effect on their performance.

Additionally, things like Electronic Warfare just have no depth to them whatsoever. Ravens are pretty much just gimped brawlers and LL snipers because the function they are supposed to serve (ECW) has not been fleshed out at all, it consists of simply taking an ECM on the one variant and that's the extent of ECW in this game.

Finally the games obsession with Alpha Strike-centric gameplay, combined with nearly universal pinpoint convergence, is the direct cause for a lot of stock loadouts being so awful. Many many mechs are designed with mixed-range weaponry, because it's supposed to be important to be a versatile weapons platform. Some mechs boat specific ranges yes, but a lot don't. This just does not work in MWO, as carrying around one or two medium backup lasers (or worse, one or two small LRM launchers) means jacksquat when an enemy light mech can boat a 32+ pinpoint alpha, and it just gets more crazy the heavier you go. This is also why mechs like the Crow and ShadowHawk are so superior in their weight class - they just lucked out with hitboxes that let them deal with the ridiculous amounts of damage flying around that their peers just cant handle.

The game has simply gotten so damage centric, and arcadey, loadouts that should be reasonable are just a joke.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 April 2015 - 09:09 PM, said:

and there aren't mechs with that big a gap in custom moe? A certain spider, perhaps?

Biggest thing that hurts stock mech mode is the doubled armor, which gimps the ammo on mechs.

That Spider can at least squirrel around and dodge shots against the average Joe shooter, whereas that Locust 1M's only real option is to just die after a sad and painful life.

Don't forget SHS and PGI/Paul's condemnation of heat efficiency for another knock against stock mechs... (I can dig up the Ask The Devs #43 quote if you want, it's pretty sad).

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 08 April 2015 - 04:36 AM, said:

That Spider can at least squirrel around and dodge shots against the average Joe shooter, whereas that Locust 1M's only real option is to just die after a sad and painful life.

Don't forget SHS and PGI/Paul's condemnation of heat efficiency for another knock against stock mechs... (I can dig up the Ask The Devs #43 quote if you want, it's pretty sad).

for one. when all mechs run SHS, it kinda invalidates that issue. ANd the SMM crowd finds it improves TTK and forces more tactical battles instead of "death zerging alpha gungam style".

And um...the Locust can run around on the edge too... and not many Light mechs can respond to the LRMs. You get caught, or shot, yeah, you're dead. But it still is doable. Still faster than a Jenner....and few Light Mechs come anywhere near max armor stock. SO doesn't take that many LRMs to start hurting.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

E Rommel, on 07 April 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

Well you obviously ran out of arguments a long time ago. Going to pretend your rants about how custom mechs aren't "real Mechwarrior" didn't happen? Or that you haven't repeatedly tried to argue that losing the ability to improve the mechs we get would somehow be "more balanced" because Mechlab OP?

If you're bitter that other people built better mechs than you, how about building better mechs?

Hard to argue with a dumb troll. There is no point.
The fact is that this sh/it was tested to the limits and you don`t know sh/it about the subject you try to talk about.

And this locust is actually common view in our games, doing quiet good.

[Kh0rn]

Quxudica, on 08 April 2015 - 01:48 AM, said:

The reason some mechs are worse than others is multi-fold:
Alpha Strike is really all that matters, doing as much damage as fast as you can trumps every other build consideration. And Role Warfare is virtually non-existant because of issue number one, on top of there really just being no need for any role that isn't a primary damage dealer in MWO's current state.

Restricting build options, even a little, would help with all of these issues. Some mechs aren't supposed to be primary damage dealers, which is why they are bad since that's all that matters in MWO. Support Gear is virtually non-existant and every piece of support tech is universal except ecm, meaning the mechs that were actually designed to carry that gear as part of their role on the battlefield are just naturally worse. Their designs make concessions for the advantages those items are supposed to give the team. A choice between support and firepower. But what good is that when almost any mech can equip a BAP/NARC/TAG just using spare tonnage with little effect on their performance.

Additionally, things like Electronic Warfare just have no depth to them whatsoever. Ravens are pretty much just gimped brawlers and LL snipers because the function they are supposed to serve (ECW) has not been fleshed out at all, it consists of simply taking an ECM on the one variant and that's the extent of ECW in this game.

Finally the games obsession with Alpha Strike-centric gameplay, combined with nearly universal pinpoint convergence, is the direct cause for a lot of stock loadouts being so awful. Many many mechs are designed with mixed-range weaponry, because it's supposed to be important to be a versatile weapons platform. Some mechs boat specific ranges yes, but a lot don't. This just does not work in MWO, as carrying around one or two medium backup lasers (or worse, one or two small LRM launchers) means jacksquat when an enemy light mech can boat a 32+ pinpoint alpha, and it just gets more crazy the heavier you go. This is also why mechs like the Crow and ShadowHawk are so superior in their weight class - they just lucked out with hitboxes that let them deal with the ridiculous amounts of damage flying around that their peers just cant handle.

The game has simply gotten so damage centric, and arcadey, loadouts that should be reasonable are just a joke.

I agree with you the the mechlab alone has given the players too much choice, now you can make mechs do things they were not intended too do making other variants useless. If they had a little more restriction I.E restricted hard point sizes and locked engines we will see a lot more variants doing different tasks, Also the whole radar , map system is borked recon is simply out of the window , brawling does not happen that often because now you can say hey Stuff it I'll rip it all out and stuff long range. This is why MWLL has done the job 100 times better, There is no mech lab and the one they were going too add had a very good system. Now each mech has 8 variants with different gear and weapons and you must use that mech for how it was intended too be used I personally prefer this system and there mech lab featured the restricted hard points saying " hold on you have a MG slot you can not fit a AC20 there but aha you have a PPC so that means you can fit a large scale energy weapon. The target system also worked differently. If you saw a mech and it appeared on your radar it would only appear on yours unless that mech had a C3 computer too transmit its data too other forces In this state mechs were now being used in the manner which they were build for and did very well at the role allowing the team too use tactics too win the battle rather then sheer pin point bunny hopping alpha striking methods. See these are just some of the things of why I prefer MWLL too MWO and why even tho it may lack a mech lab and some finished assets is still a better mechwarrior game over all.

Edited by Kh0rn, 08 April 2015 - 05:41 AM.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 April 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

for one. when all mechs run SHS, it kinda invalidates that issue. ANd the SMM crowd finds it improves TTK and forces more tactical battles instead of "death zerging alpha gungam style".

And um...the Locust can run around on the edge too... and not many Light mechs can respond to the LRMs. You get caught, or shot, yeah, you're dead. But it still is doable. Still faster than a Jenner....and few Light Mechs come anywhere near max armor stock. SO doesn't take that many LRMs to start hurting.

If you really want that specific speed, there's other Locust or even Spider variants to choose from, along with carrying cardboard armor instead of merely paper armor. They're also less derpy with their choice of weapons.

The quote I was talking about is this:

Paul, in ATD #43 said:

Playing with a higher rate of cooling makes a lot more builds become heat neutral. A lot of heat neutral builds results in mid-range damage applied at a constant rate over time. This mechanism would be highly exploited by those with knowledge of building efficient heat neutral Mechs.

It's so sad.

[Alistair Winter]

We're all basically repeating the things we said to each other the last ten times we had a stock mode thread. But I'll repeat myself anyway.

• As FupDup says, not all stock mechs are equal. We don't have BV in this game, and BV doesn't take into account how good different mechs are in MWO due to hitboxes, size, etc.
  
• The only good way to do stock mechs that I can think of, would be to use the system from CounterStrike and similar FPS game. I know, I know. "Steal a feature that is actualy proven and tested in other successful games? Outrageous!"
  
• Basically, in stock mech mode, you don't own any mechs. Every time you start a match, you start with x amount of cash, which you can use to buy a mech in the 60 seconds before the match starts. Every time you complete a match, you get more cash based on your match score. Every time you die, you lose your mech. Your stock mech currency can only be earned in stock mode matches, and every time you log off, you lose what you've accumulated.
  
• This means that if you want to play an expensive assault mech, you have to earn it by accumulating enough currency through a number of matches. This is identical to the idea that if you want to be an AWP sniper with full body armour in CounterStrike, you have to earn it by accumulating enough currency through a number of matches.

The alternative would be to have a game with a real economy, like you see in other MMOs, where supply and demand determines the prices, and you lose your vehicle when they are destroyed. But there's no way we're ever getting that in MWO. On the other hand, there's no way we're ever seeing any kind of stock mode in MWO anyway.

[Burktross]

Rushin Roulette, on 08 April 2015 - 01:08 AM, said:

I beleive a few of my my friends want a few words with you.

https://www.youtube....d&v=VRd48z4RU9c

Alistair Winter, on 08 April 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

We're all basically repeating the things we said to each other the last ten times we had a stock mode thread. But I'll repeat myself anyway.

• As FupDup says, not all stock mechs are equal. We don't have BV in this game, and BV doesn't take into account how good different mechs are in MWO due to hitboxes, size, etc.
  
• The only good way to do stock mechs that I can think of, would be to use the system from CounterStrike and similar FPS game. I know, I know. "Steal a feature that is actualy proven and tested in other successful games? Outrageous!"
  
• Basically, in stock mech mode, you don't own any mechs. Every time you start a match, you start with x amount of cash, which you can use to buy a mech in the 60 seconds before the match starts. Every time you complete a match, you get more cash based on your match score. Every time you die, you lose your mech. Your stock mech currency can only be earned in stock mode matches, and every time you log off, you lose what you've accumulated.
  
• This means that if you want to play an expensive assault mech, you have to earn it by accumulating enough currency through a number of matches. This is identical to the idea that if you want to be an AWP sniper with full body armour in CounterStrike, you have to earn it by accumulating enough currency through a number of matches.

The alternative would be to have a game with a real economy, like you see in other MMOs, where supply and demand determines the prices, and you lose your vehicle when they are destroyed. But there's no way we're ever getting that in MWO. On the other hand, there's no way we're ever seeing any kind of stock mode in MWO anyway.

So Mechwarrior Living Legends...?

[Alistair Winter]

Burktross, on 08 April 2015 - 06:31 AM, said:

So Mechwarrior Living Legends...?

Never played it. But if that's what MWLL is like, I'm not surprised at all.

Because 1) The MWLL guys seem to have made a number of good decisions, as far as I can tell, and really showed what people with a good sense of game design can do with a limited budget and 2) It would just be another thing MWLL did right that PGI decided not to replicate for MWO.

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 08 April 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

We're all basically repeating the things we said to each other the last ten times we had a stock mode thread. But I'll repeat myself anyway.

• As FupDup says, not all stock mechs are equal. We don't have BV in this game, and BV doesn't take into account how good different mechs are in MWO due to hitboxes, size, etc.
  
• The only good way to do stock mechs that I can think of, would be to use the system from CounterStrike and similar FPS game. I know, I know. "Steal a feature that is actualy proven and tested in other successful games? Outrageous!"
  
• Basically, in stock mech mode, you don't own any mechs. Every time you start a match, you start with x amount of cash, which you can use to buy a mech in the 60 seconds before the match starts. Every time you complete a match, you get more cash based on your match score. Every time you die, you lose your mech. Your stock mech currency can only be earned in stock mode matches, and every time you log off, you lose what you've accumulated.
  
• This means that if you want to play an expensive assault mech, you have to earn it by accumulating enough currency through a number of matches. This is identical to the idea that if you want to be an AWP sniper with full body armour in CounterStrike, you have to earn it by accumulating enough currency through a number of matches.

The alternative would be to have a game with a real economy, like you see in other MMOs, where supply and demand determines the prices, and you lose your vehicle when they are destroyed. But there's no way we're ever getting that in MWO. On the other hand, there's no way we're ever seeing any kind of stock mode in MWO anyway.

Loophole: Keep the computer turned on 24/7 so you don't have to log off, no spacebucks lost.

Also, with allowing multiple matches to accumulate in one play session, that means more playtime in one day = higher chance of winning due to expensive mechs > cheaper mechs.

If money was to used as a "balancing" mechanic at all, it would have to be reset to the default value every match, with no carryover from previous matches. Imagine, for example, playing Starcraft where the winner got to start with all of their minerals and vespene from the previous round...

[Kaeb Odellas]

If PGI ever implements a stock mode, it needs to ignore your mech's loadout (except camo, cockpit, and maybe modules) and replace it in-game with the stock version, so I don't have to keep doubles of each mech I want to pilot in both stock and non-stock modes.