329 replies to this topic

[Roadkill]

ShinVector, on 15 April 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

Yeah... man... Your point is 'proven' man.
Streakcrows are so, weak.. Too bad I could not find that light that could tank 432 damage.

You don't need to. The point is that Streaks are not auto-hit. There are many ways that a decent Light pilot can cause Streaks to miss (read: hit something else), thus increasing survivability against the Streakcrow.

Streakcrows aren't even OP against Lights. They're very good against Lights, but they're designed to dominate Lights and frankly they don't. Then there's the fact that they're barely adequate against Mediums, and suck against Heavies and Assaults.

If you stand still in the open a Streakcrow will kill you in 4-5 volleys. If you're already damaged maybe 2-3. But a laser boat will kill you in 1 whether you're damaged or not.

Streakcrow OP? LOLno.

[ShinVector]

Roadkill, on 15 April 2015 - 04:16 PM, said:

You don't need to. The point is that Streaks are not auto-hit. There are many ways that a decent Light pilot can cause Streaks to miss (read: hit something else), thus increasing survivability against the Streakcrow.

Streakcrows aren't even OP against Lights. They're very good against Lights, but they're designed to dominate Lights and frankly they don't. Then there's the fact that they're barely adequate against Mediums, and suck against Heavies and Assaults.

If you stand still in the open a Streakcrow will kill you in 4-5 volleys. If you're already damaged maybe 2-3. But a laser boat will kill you in 1 whether you're damaged or not.

Streakcrow OP? LOLno.

Ahhh... You think I don't know how to pilot lights ? Hmmm...

Anyway.. If for what ever reason a Clan Streak6 mech gets the jump on you which is to get within 300M of you.
Your are screwed.... The light mech game is all about managing your armour... The guaranteed damage that Streak do even with the worst of pilot is probably what peeves us off a bit..

Well at least they don't just ridiculous target CT like they used too.. Pretty sure Jenners would have alot of fun if they did...

Anyway... I am not going allow people in this thread to down play the Streakcrow ability to wreck people.

Edited by ShinVector, 15 April 2015 - 04:56 PM.

[Roadkill]

ShinVector, on 15 April 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

Anyway... I am not going allow people in this thread to down play the Streakcrow ability to wreck people.

It's mostly psychological. A Streakcrow is no more dangerous to a light than a Wubcrow, and the Wubcrow is dangerous to everything else as well.

It takes at least 4 full volleys for a Streakcrow to take down a fresh Firestarter unless the Firestarter pilot is incompetent. That's 20 seconds. C'mon, man... ANY build should be able to take down a Firestarter in 20 seconds!

Can a Streakcrow ablate a ton of armor very quickly, thus hampering the Light's ability to function for the rest of the match? Sure, yeah, it can do that. And it does that a lot more effectively than a laser vomit build. But so what? It's such a terribly niche build that even this weekend while the queues were flooded with Urbanmechs, I rarely saw them. And half the time your Lights have engaged and killed the enemy Lights before you can get there, so your one trick ends up being useless.

Sorry man, they're just not all that. And honestly, I feel like I'm being generous when I say that. I'd rather have an LRM boat on my team.

[ShinVector]

Roadkill, on 15 April 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

It's mostly psychological. A Streakcrow is no more dangerous to a light than a Wubcrow, and the Wubcrow is dangerous to everything else as well.

And yet... Ask yourself.. What is the preferred method that Clanners use to deal with IS Lights ?
Wubcrow ?
Streakcrow ?

There answer lies with an inherent problem with MWO that also directly affects lights pilots.

[Roadkill]

ShinVector, on 15 April 2015 - 07:29 PM, said:

And yet... Ask yourself.. What is the preferred method that Clanners use to deal with IS Lights ?
Wubcrow ?
Streakcrow ?

There answer lies with an inherent problem with MWO that also directly affects lights pilots.

Wubcrow, hands down. It's not even close. I might see 1 Streakcrow per day, but I see at least one Wubcrow in every match.

Or are you talking CW?

I get that CW is supposed to be the end game for MWO, but it just isn't. Not yet. It's just another mode right now, and frankly it's not even as good. Until it gets out of beta, there's no point in tuning weapons or Mechs based on CW experience, because most people play in the solo and group queues.

[ShinVector]

Roadkill, on 15 April 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

Wubcrow, hands down. It's not even close. I might see 1 Streakcrow per day, but I see at least one Wubcrow in every match.

Or are you talking CW?

I get that CW is supposed to be the end game for MWO, but it just isn't. Not yet. It's just another mode right now, and frankly it's not even as good. Until it gets out of beta, there's no point in tuning weapons or Mechs based on CW experience, because most people play in the solo and group queues.

Of course CW... It is end game...
Groups are suppose to pit the most effective tactics and pimped out mechs against each other.

Maiming and killing lights is what the Streakcrow does and what it does well.

[Roadkill]

ShinVector, on 15 April 2015 - 07:47 PM, said:

Maiming and killing lights is what the Streakcrow does and what it does well.

And that's the only thing it does well. Streakcrows cower from everything else until they find a Light they can engage safely.

Rock-paper-scissors. Lights are rock. Streakcrows are paper. The problem is that there are 3 scissors in this game - Mediums, Heavies, and Assaults.

If you're getting eaten by Streakcrows, you need to re-think your tactics. What are you doing so far from your team that a Streakcrow can wreck you before your team can help you? It needs at least 20 seconds! I only wish my Assaults could live 20 seconds in battle.

And if the Streakcrow charges through your team to kill you before dying gloriously, you won that engagement. That could have been a far more dangerous Wubcrow, and you just eliminated it simply by being present.

[Koniving]

F8Sealed, on 07 April 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

350+ Range with never missing missiles for 60 points of damage wherever you can get a lock.

FupDup, on 07 April 2015 - 06:16 AM, said:

Streaks aren't in a weird spot because of lore, they're in a weird spot because PGI felt the need to make them into an "always hit" RNG-targeting system.

This.
Clan Streaks in tabletop have that range because typically they fire about 1/3rd of the time or less, and something had to make them worth even having since if they 'could not hit' they 'would not fire'. Period. That isn't to say they always hit. That is to say if anything, anything at all would prevent them from having a 100% guarantee to hit (say there's a tree leaf in the way), they would NOT fire.

Made them pretty close to worthless actually. That's why they have that range in TT. It's mainly to reflect that they would have a better chance of working over Inner Sphere streaks. But of course, the manual SRMs are supposed to work well beyond 1,000 meters and the lore-written reason for 270 meters is "beyond that you probably won't hit a thing."

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Just as a point of reference.
http://www.sarna.net...issile_Launcher

Quote

The Streak Missile Launcher is a specialized version of the standard Short Range Missile launcher which withholds fire until it receives a solid lock ensuring all missiles will hit.


Originally developed in 2647, the Streak SRM Launcher is relatively similar to the standard SRM launcher but linked to a unique Targa-7 fire control system. This system is designed to guarantee a hit against any target onto which the pilot can get a lock, a special feature of this system preventing the weapon from firing at a target when there is no lock-on, saving ammunition by preventing shots that would miss.

Unlike a standard SRM whose shotgun effect may result in some misses and some hits, Streak guidance gives the lighter launchers the effective average firepower of the heavier and more wasteful SRM systems, but with considerably less variation in damage effects. The only disadvantages are that Streak launchers are incompatible with other missile target acquisition technologies such as the Artemis IV FCSand Narc Missile Beacon, their specialized ammunition is much more expensive, and some users are willing to accept partial hits rather than not be able to fire on demand.

Like many pieces of advanced Star League technology, the Streak system disappeared during the technological decline of the Succession Wars. The Clans retained and championed the technology, and as an example of their drive towards avoiding waste, expanded it to all three SRM launcher types. Thanks to the Helm Memory Core, the Free Worlds League rediscovered the ability to produce the Streak SRM-2 again in 3035,^[1] and using this with Clan-tech salvage, the Draconis Combine was able to produce Inner Sphere versions of the larger launchers in 3058.^[2] While the Inner Sphere powers finally cracked how to create all types of Streak SRMs, Clan scientists had been experimenting with applying the Streak system to LRMs, trading any indirect capacity for less wasteful ammunition usage.

The problem itself may lay in the fact that streaks still shotgun like regular SRMs. Why not make them stream like they did in MW4?

[Widowmaker1981]

Quxudica, on 11 April 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

Eh? Lore? Streaks in MWO do not adhere to lore. at all. A streak is supposed to be the same as a standard SRM, you are still supposed to have to aim it - lead the target and everything else involved. The only difference for the standard streak missile, is if you would miss - you are prevented from firing. Some streaks have limited tracking, but they are supposed to be twice the size (thus 50% less ammo per ton) and I think they only track with NARC.. or is it standard streaks that have limited tracking with NARC..

either way. The lackluster lock on mechanics in MWO have nothing to do with lore.

So how would you replicate this in MWO, exactly? If they 'wont fire if you're going to miss' couldn't you just hammer click until you happened to have your cursor in the right place, then they fire and hit (because they cant miss and waste ammo/heat).

What we have in MWO is the best recreation of what they do in TT that i can think of. If you wanted to make them harder to use you could decrease the size of the area you need to track to get a lock i guess, but while they are basically a hard counter to lights they mean your mech is incapable of fighting anything 60t or heavier with any kind of success.. its a trade off. One im not happy to make outside of CW, personally.

[Darian DelFord]

Roadkill, on 15 April 2015 - 07:57 PM, said:

And that's the only thing it does well. Streakcrows cower from everything else until they find a Light they can engage safely.

Rock-paper-scissors. Lights are rock. Streakcrows are paper. The problem is that there are 3 scissors in this game - Mediums, Heavies, and Assaults.

If you're getting eaten by Streakcrows, you need to re-think your tactics. What are you doing so far from your team that a Streakcrow can wreck you before your team can help you? It needs at least 20 seconds! I only wish my Assaults could live 20 seconds in battle.

And if the Streakcrow charges through your team to kill you before dying gloriously, you won that engagement. That could have been a far more dangerous Wubcrow, and you just eliminated it simply by being present.

Thanks for making me laugh, your analogy game is correct however you have the wrong labels. 4-5 Slavos to kill a light is garbage. Try 2 will critically wound it and 3 does it in. Your looking at 12 seconds right there. If the light is close to the crow then maybe it will out maneuver it. However if the crow has him at range the light is dead secondary to have the lock on mechanic works in this game

Lights survive off of speed and agility, SC's are just as agile and almost as fast. Dual Gauss, Dual PPC's bother me do to convergence but not as much as streakers. And while not as strong against meds and heavies, they can still make a huge dent in them.

Everyone keeps assuming that an equal number of missiles hit an equal number of locations, this is not the case.

[Kuritaclan]

You should rethink your volley assumption see: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4360096 - if a light get killed in 2 to 3 salvos, he was damaged before, and the streakcrow has teambackup or backup by other damage sources not to figure in that misses by terrain and hitreg. Lights get killed shortly by Streakcrows mostly present a side, and the designation of ssrms who are meant to hit the oppositi bodypart make damage on this near side, so you get more damage to one side, what will pop at some point the XL-Engine in most cases used. However a fresh Light against a Streakcrow vis a vis is durable enough to withstand somwhat above 5 volleys in a good case maybee 7 to 8 this a combat time over 30 seconds (without heat generation).

[Joseph Mallan]

Darian DelFord, on 16 April 2015 - 02:47 AM, said:

Thanks for making me laugh, your analogy game is correct however you have the wrong labels. 4-5 Slavos to kill a light is garbage. Try 2 will critically wound it and 3 does it in. Your looking at 12 seconds right there. If the light is close to the crow then maybe it will out maneuver it. However if the crow has him at range the light is dead secondary to have the lock on mechanic works in this game

Lights survive off of speed and agility, SC's are just as agile and almost as fast. Dual Gauss, Dual PPC's bother me do to convergence but not as much as streakers. And while not as strong against meds and heavies, they can still make a huge dent in them.

Everyone keeps assuming that an equal number of missiles hit an equal number of locations, this is not the case.

Well, when an enemy is vomiting one third your total armor per volley, How many seconds do you expect to last? Seriously now, if you want survivability you don't take something with only a handful of tons of armor.

[Gyrok]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 15 April 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

Just as a point of reference.
http://www.sarna.net...issile_Launcher



The problem itself may lay in the fact that streaks still shotgun like regular SRMs. Why not make them stream like they did in MW4?

As I recall...streaks never "streamed" in any MW game...

[kesmai]

exchange the ssrm with asrm.

try to learn how to hit at 250m range.

never use streaks again.

[Gyrok]

ShinVector, on 15 April 2015 - 07:47 PM, said:

Of course CW... It is end game...
Groups are suppose to pit the most effective tactics and pimped out mechs against each other.

Maiming and killing lights is what the Streakcrow does and what it does well.

In CW there are not streak crows all over the place...

In fact, if we are dropping against IS, we still do not bring streak crows in our 12 man unless the IS team we encountered is bound and determined to pull the sorry @$$ tactic of 3 waves of FS9s/SDRs/CDAs, and we have a group of newer players. Even then we only bring 2-3 of those in the first wave, and they play "free safety" if you will. To add a note here, in many cases, with the correct group, we just use beams and focus legs, and keep balled up pretty tight to drop the light rushes...they will probably over run us at some point after 2-3 waves, but we surely drop as many as we can on the way...

[That Dawg]

F8Sealed, on 07 April 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

There's always a countermeasure.

buy one?

[Gyrok]

Darian DelFord, on 16 April 2015 - 02:47 AM, said:

Thanks for making me laugh, your analogy game is correct however you have the wrong labels. 4-5 Slavos to kill a light is garbage. Try 2 will critically wound it and 3 does it in. Your looking at 12 seconds right there. If the light is close to the crow then maybe it will out maneuver it. However if the crow has him at range the light is dead secondary to have the lock on mechanic works in this game

Lights survive off of speed and agility, SC's are just as agile and almost as fast. Dual Gauss, Dual PPC's bother me do to convergence but not as much as streakers. And while not as strong against meds and heavies, they can still make a huge dent in them.

Everyone keeps assuming that an equal number of missiles hit an equal number of locations, this is not the case.

BS...watch the video posted by shin vector...he shoots at cored mechs, and gets a lucky 1 shot on a legged light about to die anyway next time he sneezes. Other than that, a hellbie, that was already completely cored CT, takes 7 volleys to kill...7!

Then, the next gem from that clip is the completely cored raven, that is fighting another raven, and dies in 4 volleys.

I honestly thought you were going to make it hard to refute your claim...now run along and go play in the sand box with the others...

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news Darian...but, you are a terrible light pilot.

EDIT: To add another point, show me documented numbers where the lights you all are talking about piloting have the same torso twist speed, hill climb rate, etc. as a streak crow, also, have you all forgotten you have JJs? Because the last time I looked at the numbers (not going to lie...it was last night...the time before that was a few days ago...) The worst case scenario for the 150 kph lights is TT speed around 100 deg/sec. Meanwhile, the streak crows are in the 80 deg/sec-ish range. Also, lights are small/tiny hill climb, streak crows are medium hill climb...then you have...my favorite...JJs, and/or ECM...

All those tools to beat streak crows and you are complaining...?

As I said before..."gitgud"

Edited by Gyrok, 16 April 2015 - 05:37 AM.

[ShinVector]

Gyrok, on 16 April 2015 - 05:18 AM, said:

As I recall...streaks never "streamed" in any MW game...

Try starting from the the First real 3D one !
39mins mark...

Gyrok, on 16 April 2015 - 05:32 AM, said:

BS...watch the video posted by shin vector...he shoots at cored mechs, and gets a lucky 1 shot on a legged light about to die anyway next time he sneezes. Other than that, a hellbie, that was already completely cored CT, takes 7 volleys to kill...7!

Then, the next gem from that clip is the completely cored raven, that is fighting another raven, and dies in 4 volleys.

Careful this dude like to mis-represent facts.
I didn't mentioned earlier.. But since he keeps stating over and over...
What he means by volleys is me staggering my Alpha to avoid ghost heat...

Cored hellbringer actually dies in 2.5 Alphas.

Edited by ShinVector, 16 April 2015 - 05:58 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

Well, I am sorry to say this, but after reading this entire thread, you all failed to account for the Range Module that puts C-SSRM's out to 396m.

I think we need to re-argue this entire thread, everything is based on the wrong distance of streaks.

Sorry I didn't get to this thread sooner...it's a real shame.