57 replies to this topic

[luxebo]

XX Sulla XX, on 10 April 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

The sniping is one of the worst things you can force a mech of this size into. Because unless you make it VERY strong it will not get played much. And if its very strong is bad for the game. Just give it nice general quirks. Then it can be an OK sniper and a GOOD mid range mech.
Other game play besides sniper like asymmetric loadouts. Pretty much all of them.
Thing is Victor DS with a very large engine is great in most ways. It just has this HUGE problem of not having enough fire power if it goes fast. Shoot it does not even have enough fire power when it goes slow. But it can have fire power. Just look at the Thunderbolt 9SE. Three LPLs and its good to go with quirks.
The thing I want most if for the Dragon Slayer not to be forced into sniping only. It NEEDS to have nice general quirks and not sniping quirks. I
It works pretty well now. Except there are just better mechs that are tougher. And it has such very short range it makes it very hard to use. So it needs help with range (AC20 and lasers) or needs to be so effective at ultra short range its just scary. Really the AC20 and 2 LPLs work better in general game play since you have at least a little range.
Well one less missle and one more ballistic that is not that helpful. Normally duel UAC5s are the best bet on these. But just give it nice general ballistics and some nice laser quirks also. Because of the very limited hard points it helps to have combination quirks. Plus it give players more options.
Just give the K and DS the same general quirks. We have to many nitch quirks as it is.
Asymmetry is not just a sniping thing. Its nice for all builds.
I would really really hate to see the DS get second rate sniper quirks so its still never used. Because it WILL get second rate sniper quirks. They will NEVER make the Dragon Slayer an effective sniper again. They are so worried about it they wiped out jump jets, Victors, Highlanders, Cataphract 3Ds, PPC etc. Please please do not try and get them to make it a "sniper". If they force it into that role it will never get quirks that make it worth playing.

We COULD make DS a mid range DPSer (LL/AC/maybe missiles, etc). However this would conflict with the K in the lasering/mid range role.

A lot of roles do require asymmetry, which is fine, but the way it would go for this Victor is that that fact of asymmetry is unique. Not only that, it's the decent energy torsos AND ballistics which go right together. This makes it more desirable for long ranging.

The extra ballistic aims for AC2 boating or multiple kinds of ACs. That should be supported, rather than just copy 9S builds.

The DS has a bit more engine, but each Victor can reach 385 rating anyways. Maybe a speed quirk can be added if need be. Like 5%+.

9S is pretty good, I'm saying we need a bit more in the DS and a few more extra perks for the K/B.

Once again DS would be ok with mid range fighting, but K should be such, as it has a more convergent laser arm, rather than DS with it's connected ballistics + energy together.

[XX Sulla XX]

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We COULD make DS a mid range DPSer (LL/AC/maybe missiles, etc). However this would conflict with the K in the lasering/mid range role.

A lot of roles do require asymmetry, which is fine, but the way it would go for this Victor is that that fact of asymmetry is unique. Not only that, it's the decent energy torsos AND ballistics which go right together. This makes it more desirable for long ranging.

The extra ballistic aims for AC2 boating or multiple kinds of ACs. That should be supported, rather than just copy 9S builds.

The DS has a bit more engine, but each Victor can reach 385 rating anyways. Maybe a speed quirk can be added if need be. Like 5%+.

9S is pretty good, I'm saying we need a bit more in the DS and a few more extra perks for the K/B.

Once again DS would be ok with mid range fighting, but K should be such, as it has a more convergent laser arm, rather than DS with it's connected ballistics + energy together.

Main point is still that they will NEVER make the DS a good sniper so pushing for making it get sniping related quirks is just pushing for it to be second rate for ever.

Also there is no conflict mechs do not have to have nich quirks and they can over lap. I would MUCH MUCH rather have some overlap between the K and the DS than have the DS forced into only being a second rate sniper that never gets used by anyone.

[Slow and Decrepit]

Good luck trying to get any real decent quirks for Vic! Might as well ship them off to a museum. At present, their just too lightly armored, and don't bring much to the table for firepower either. There's so many better options to bring to the fight. PGI really done Vic bad, like really bad, and they won't own up to it either....

[XX Sulla XX]

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Good luck trying to get any real decent quirks for Vic! Might as well ship them off to a museum. At present, their just too lightly armored, and don't bring much to the table for firepower either. There's so many better options to bring to the fight. PGI really done Vic bad, like really bad, and they won't own up to it either....

Russ did just comment Victors and Highlanders on Twitter so they should get some kind of quirks. The trick will be getting them to give Victors the right kind and enough quirks to be more viable.

[FupDup]

They're probably still being punished for being top dawgs like a year or two ago. PGI never forgives or forgets.

[luxebo]

XX Sulla XX, on 10 April 2015 - 08:45 PM, said:

Main point is still that they will NEVER make the DS a good sniper so pushing for making it get sniping related quirks is just pushing for it to be second rate for ever.

Also there is no conflict mechs do not have to have nich quirks and they can over lap. I would MUCH MUCH rather have some overlap between the K and the DS than have the DS forced into only being a second rate sniper that never gets used by anyone.

DS is still prominent as a poptart (even 733Cs sometimes, but not too common).

They can easily make a good sniper, but you are correct, they will be far too hesitant to. Plus it'll lead to poptarting issues.

The K can be a sniper as well, though it is all how PGI handles it. They can both be snipers, both be mid range, but I'd rather see K be mid range and DS be sniper. It's up to PGI though (and if more wants DS to be mid range.)

[Sjorpha]

I agree that Victor need some love.

But I don't understand why keeping the DS a sniper/poptart is a problem. There is nothing wrong per se with jumpsniping, and there should be some mechs in the game that are good at it. The DS is already in this niche and that's just fine, IMO it could get stronger gauss/PPC quirks and hopefully JJs get buffed soon, and then it could do what it does best again. I really don't think there is a big risk of poptart meta dominating again now that clan laservom/gaussvom is so strong.

For the all Victors, especially 9S, a missile tube change so it can mount 2-3 ASRM6s properly would be pretty huge.

[Gas Guzzler]

Sjorpha, on 10 April 2015 - 10:48 PM, said:

I agree that Victor need some love.

But I don't understand why keeping the DS a sniper/poptart is a problem. There is nothing wrong per se with jumpsniping, and there should be some mechs in the game that are good at it. The DS is already in this niche and that's just fine, IMO it could get stronger gauss/PPC quirks and hopefully JJs get buffed soon, and then it could do what it does best again. I really don't think there is a big risk of poptart meta dominating again now that clan laservom/gaussvom is so strong.

For the all Victors, especially 9S, a missile tube change so it can mount 2-3 ASRM6s properly would be pretty huge.

This really is true. It would be useful as a jump shooter, but it is not going to overpower all the other monsters on the field right now.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 10 April 2015 - 10:50 PM.

[DeathlyEyes]

Give me regular PPC quirks, bring the velocity back up to 1300 M/S. Poptarting isn't effecient anyway. It never will be again, not with the clan mechs.

[XX Sulla XX]

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But I don't understand why keeping the DS a sniper/poptart is a problem. There is nothing wrong per se with jumpsniping, and there should be some mechs in the game that are good at it.

The problem with poptart/sniper is if they are good enough they change the meta to that play style. And if they are not that good they will not get played. The long range PPC sniping meta flat out kills the game. Most players are average and not good at it. They then end up being fodder for the top percentage of players that are good at it. So they die in games where some times they never see the person shoot them long enough to shoot back. They get opened up without getting a good chance to fight back. PGI understands this is bad for the game and changes the meta.

PGI has now moved the meta to a more mid range laser meta. This means most games tend to go from mid range to short range at some point. People can see what is shooting them since the laser vomits have to be exposed longer. Since games tend to go mid range and then short range people have chances to shoot things even if they loose.

So again PGI knows the problems with front loaded damage long range sniping. They are not going to change the meta of the game back to that. So if you insist on getting those quirks for the Dragon Slayer it will remain average and unplayed. Shoot right now it works as a sniper but a muted version. And because its just OK it never gets played. There is just limited upside to playing it as a FLD sniper until it gets so strong it starts to change the game.

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For the all Victors, especially 9S, a missile tube change so it can mount 2-3 ASRM6s properly would be pretty huge.

That would be nice.

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This really is true. It would be useful as a jump shooter, but it is not going to overpower all the other monsters on the field right now.

That just it until it does start to swing the balance against them as a sniper it just will not be used. If you have a PPC based Dragon Slayer you have several downsides like limited effective range and DPS. If you bump those up so it starts to become an effective counter to Clan mechs then it starts to become a problem. So PGI kills, Highlanders, Victors, Cataphract 3Ds, Jump Jets and PPC etc. You would be crazy to think they will ever give you a decent DS sniper again.

So instead of asking PGI for a DS Sniper that you will not get and ending up with a DS people will never play lets ask for something we can get so we can use the DS we all spent money on.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 10 April 2015 - 11:22 PM.

[Sjorpha]

I simply don't agree that good snipers/poptarts destroy the game. A jump sniper is a midrange mech these days because of the low PPC velocity, so as long as the quirks don't buff velocity too much it's ok for it to poptart well.

Also we already have good dual gauss snipers being part of the meta, they don't destroy the game at all. It's all about fine tuning things to not take over, this can be done with jumsnipers as well as any other type of strategy.

There is a myriad of ways to tweak and balance things, when it comes to poptarting and JJs I would like the opposite approach from now. Instead of JJs being too weak to clear obstacles they should give so much thrust in the first seconds that you could't control them easily and therefore expose yourself much more.

[Gas Guzzler]

XX Sulla XX, on 10 April 2015 - 11:20 PM, said:

The problem with poptart/sniper is if they are good enough they change the meta to that play style. And if they are not that good they will not get played. The long range PPC sniping meta flat out kills the game. Most players are average and not good at it. They then end up being fodder for the top percentage of players that are good at it. So they die in games where some times they never see the person shoot them long enough to shoot back. They get opened up without getting a good chance to fight back. PGI understands this is bad for the game and changes the meta.

PGI has now moved the meta to a more mid range laser meta. This means most games tend to go from mid range to short range at some point. People can see what is shooting them since the laser vomits have to be exposed longer. Since games tend to go mid range and then short range people have chances to shoot things even if they loose.

So again PGI knows the problems with front loaded damage long range sniping. They are not going to change the meta of the game back to that. So if you insist on getting those quirks for the Dragon Slayer it will remain average and unplayed. Shoot right now it works as a sniper but a muted version. And because its just OK it never gets played. There is just limited upside to playing it as a FLD sniper until it gets so strong it starts to change the game.

That would be nice.

That just it until it does start to swing the balance against them as a sniper it just will not be used. If you have a PPC based Dragon Slayer you have several downsides like limited effective range and DPS. If you bump those up so it starts to become an effective counter to Clan mechs then it starts to become a problem. So PGI kills, Highlanders, Victors, Cataphract 3Ds, Jump Jets and PPC etc. You would be crazy to think they will ever give you a decent DS sniper again.

So instead of asking PGI for a DS Sniper that you will not get and ending up with a DS people will never play lets ask for something we can get so we can use the DS we all spent money on.

If they just started where it is now and gave it agility and durability quirks it would be fine. Maybe a little more PPC velocity. I don't think that is too much to ask. I do NOT want to run lasers on it. Two in the RT, one in the left arm? No thanks.

[XX Sulla XX]

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I simply don't agree that good snipers/poptarts destroy the game. A jump sniper is a midrange mech these days because of the low PPC velocity, so as long as the quirks don't buff velocity too much it's ok for it to poptart well.

If they do not get good velocity they will not be good snipers.

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Also we already have good dual gauss snipers being part of the meta, they don't destroy the game at all. It's all about fine tuning things to not take over, this can be done with jumsnipers as well as any other type of strategy.

They all tend to have large handicaps of one kind or another.

The Victor DS works right now as a sniper. But with large handicaps to keep it in check.

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There is a myriad of ways to tweak and balance things, when it comes to poptarting and JJs I would like the opposite approach from now. Instead of JJs being too weak to clear obstacles they should give so much thrust in the first seconds that you could't control them easily and therefore expose yourself much more.

Best option is to keep PPCs nerfed and give us back good jump jets. I would much rather have good jump jets than PPC snipers. And I say PPC snipers because PPC figured in all of the decent jump sniper builds.

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If they just started where it is now and gave it agility and durability quirks it would be fine. Maybe a little more PPC velocity. I don't think that is too much to ask. I do NOT want to run lasers on it. Two in the RT, one in the left arm? No thanks.

If they gave it a bit more agility and a bit more durability it would still be second rate sniper. A tiny bit more PPC velocity would also not put it over the edge. Shoot they already removed all of the negative quirks they gave it and then changed it to large archtype movement and gave it positive PPC and gauss quirks. And it handles better and PPC work a bit better and gauss works a bit better. But its till a second rate mech. And they are never going to make it work well as a sniper.

But we can probably do something where we are both happy. If they give it GOOD energy quirks and good missle quirks and then up the PPC velocity from PPC VELOCITY: 7.50 % to 10.0%. Plus of course the left and right torso quirks then it might work. The PPCs would still be hot. And it would not be getting gause or AC quirks so that would limit the sniping. And the PPCs do not pare very well lasers so that would not be an issue. So you could do a range of mid range builds while limiting PPC sniping.

Although reality is they see a mech that used to be good and one with jump jets. So it will get small quirks. And probably quirks that do not help it enough to even be played. I see tiny boosts that do not move in to any contention as a mech you would want to play much. I hope I am wrong but lets see what happens.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 11 April 2015 - 12:15 AM.

[XX Sulla XX]

You know this makes me think there should be a pass to normalize mechs more with quirks. Bring up bottom tier mechs and maybe nerf the top mechs just a bit. So iif you had tiers 1-4 you push them into tiers 2-3 and get rid of outliers. Might have to write something up on this later.

[Davegt27]

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You know this makes me think there should be a pass to normalize mechs more with quirks. Bring up bottom tier mechs and maybe nerf the top mechs just a bit. So iif you had tiers 1-4 you push them into tiers 2-3 and get rid of outliers. Might have to write something up on this later.

might as well get rid of the game as we know it

give every one the same Mech each with 2 lasers

you get to paint it any color you want

[Slow and Decrepit]

I think that they should force Paul to pilot a DS for the rest of his time at PGI. Even thou the Victor is supposed be a lightly armored assult, I think that most of us know that it won't be worth a hoot to play that way with the firepower of the clans. Even if they bump up the armor, it still doesn't have enough hardpoints/firepower to hang against the clan uppers. I'd like to see the DS be able to carry a AC 20. I like it to get a 3E arm like the K. I'd like to see -30 heat for all Victors, and give them the same armor as the Zeus. Yes I must have fallen and hit me head, cause I'm dreaming....

[XX Sulla XX]

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might as well get rid of the game as we know it

give every one the same Mech each with 2 lasers

you get to paint it any color you want

You do understand your comment has zero to do with what i just mentioned. I mean really nothing at all. I did not ask for all mechs to be exactly the same or even on the same level or even that close to the same level. All I asked for is work on the outliers. I just asked for there to be a bit less of a gap from the worst to the best.

So what you are doing is making for example the Timber Wolf a bit worse and the Vindicator VND-1X a bit better. Nothing nothing at all like you suggest.

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I think that they should force Paul to pilot a DS for the rest of his time at PGI. Even thou the Victor is supposed be a lightly armored assult, I think that most of us know that it won't be worth a hoot to play that way with the firepower of the clans. Even if they bump up the armor, it still doesn't have enough hardpoints/firepower to hang against the clan uppers. I'd like to see the DS be able to carry a AC 20. I like it to get a 3E arm like the K. I'd like to see -30 heat for all Victors, and give them the same armor as the Zeus. Yes I must have fallen and hit me head, cause I'm dreaming....

Well if we are dreaming I would like to see the Victor be a strait up counter to the TW and some other Clan mechs and not as a sniper.

[Slow and Decrepit]

XX Sulla XX, on 11 April 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

Well if we are dreaming I would like to see the Victor be a strait up counter to the TW and some other Clan mechs and not as a sniper.

I was so looking forward to taking on a Timber in my Victors, but then they almost completely killed the Victor to replace it with a mech(Timber) that moved just the same way and was one of the reasons why Vic got nerfed to begin with! I still would like to see Vic get a LFE. That would go along ways to even the playing field, and restore my faith in PGI.

[XX Sulla XX]

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I was so looking forward to taking on a Timber in my Victors, but then they almost completely killed the Victor to replace it with a mech(Timber) that moved just the same way and was one of the reasons why Vic got nerfed to begin with! I still would like to see Vic get a LFE. That would go along ways to even the playing field, and restore my faith in PGI.

I also had visions of epic TW vs Victor fights. But then Victors got nerfed into the ground and TWs were even better than expect.

[Slow and Decrepit]

I'm not sure a Vic would stand a chance against a TW even with a LFE. Maybe a 9S with the mini Atlas build, or the dual UAC 5's champion build....For those screaming powercreep, It's not creeping, it's already here! What should PGI do? It's not like they can take the clan's best and refund everyone. We now have a couple of mechs that have 16 hardpoints! How do you fight that?