143 replies to this topic

[Roadkill]

Kristov Kerensky, on 09 April 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

Similar to how it works in TT, JJing in a brawl makes you harder to hit and lets you get directly behind a target during a brawl without having to circle around them, it also makes it harder for you to target precisely, so there is a trade off of heat and lack of precision for the added mobility factor. Also you can JJ OUT of the brawl if things are going pear shaped, or at least try to

Using JJ in a brawl - occasionally - is not the same thing as JJ brawling.

When most people talk about JJ brawling they mean using the JJ frequently, jumping back and forth at every opportunity, in order to make yourself harder to hit and track. The problem is that it doesn't really make it any harder for you to shoot, so the penalty that applies in TT really isn't present in MWO.

I've never seen JJ used that much in a brawl when playing TT. It's typically closer to what you said - using them once to jump over an enemy to gain tactical advantage, or using them to exit a brawl at an angle (or over terrain) that the enemy can't follow. Occasional use, not constant use.

[Virgil Greyson]

Mizeur, on 09 April 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

Jumpsniping is no longer an OP tactic and has pretty much disappeared from the game. Jump jet heat and the inability to cool while in the air weren't the cause (PPC velocity, jump jet thrust reductions, and, for the IS, Clan tech are) but even if it was, it penalizes using jump jets while brawling more.

Roadkill, on 09 April 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

Using JJ in a brawl - occasionally - is not the same thing as JJ brawling.

When most people talk about JJ brawling they mean using the JJ frequently, jumping back and forth at every opportunity, in order to make yourself harder to hit and track. The problem is that it doesn't really make it any harder for you to shoot, so the penalty that applies in TT really isn't present in MWO.

I've never seen JJ used that much in a brawl when playing TT. It's typically closer to what you said - using them once to jump over an enemy to gain tactical advantage, or using them to exit a brawl at an angle (or over terrain) that the enemy can't follow. Occasional use, not constant use.

No they feather the jumpjets to exploit the fact that it screws with your hitboxes.

[Gas Guzzler]

Virgil Greyson, on 09 April 2015 - 02:52 PM, said:

No they feather the jumpjets to exploit the fact that it screws with your hitboxes.

This is an assumption and has not been verified. It really just makes you miss.

Hit reg issues happen all the time, it isn't just when you pop jump jets.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Yeonne Greene, on 09 April 2015 - 02:42 PM, said:

JJ brawling is supposed to mean using the jets to cover ground quickly and get into brawling range, though, which is more or less how it works in TT. In MWO, you could never use JJs to get behind a target unless you were in a Light and you instead just jitter around. It doesn't increase your turn rate, it just f*cks with the system trying to accurately track and transmit your position to the rest of the people in the match.

That's how it works NOW, prior to the great JJ Nerfage, it was different, I could take my Cataphract directly over and behind another Mech THAT quickly, spinning around in the air while I was JJ, firing as I went up, landing directly behind the target and opening fire before they could spin around. And if they were slower than my Cataphract, I could stay in their rear arc tearing their back out without getting shot in return. Catapults did it to, it was nasty to have a Splat or Streak Cat doing that to you.

Now, if you aren't in a Light, and the RIGHT Light at that, that's not really happening very often. You use the JJ to get into the brawl, maneuver around a bit or a lot depending on the Mech, it's doable, it works, you just have to manage your heat because JJs produce heat, as they should, it's not an antigravity device, it's superheated reactant being forced out of nozzles that literally rockets you up/around, tends to be rather warm.

Roadkill, if you mean the feathering that messes with the hitboxes due to the animation issues, last patch fixed the worst offenders, Firestarters are already dying in droves, seems to have worked. I don't THINK that's what Mizeur means, but if it is, well, I'll point back to my 'this isn't CoD' statement and leave it at that.

I THINK Mizeur is talking about the same sort of JJbrawling I am, some of us do it a lot, many people don't realize they can be used that way however.

Gas, there's no assumption that feathering the JJ was borking the hitboxes due to bad animation, it's a confirmed issue that was just addressed in the patch April 7, the worst offending Mechs had their animations fixed so this no longer happens. It's been known for a while, it's an exploit that many people were using purposely because it worked. The fix also worked, just ask the Firestarter pilots who aren't going 4-6 kills and 700+ damage anymore because they die the first time they try to go face to face with an Assault now

[One Medic Army]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 April 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

Dude. Stop! Seriously? Jump Jets and Heat have been a joke in this game. A Spider Jumping for a full 8 thrust used 80% of the 10 sinks capacity. Saying we don't need JJ heat is just ... NO!

Spider jumping for 8 also went 240m horizontally and 48m vertically, and would be at 0% heat in TT at end of round unless it fired weapons. A spider with 10 DHS would be able to spend 12 heat firing guns, while jumping 8, and still be at 0% heat.

You know, because adherence to TT rules is important.

Edited by One Medic Army, 09 April 2015 - 03:06 PM.

[Void Angel]

Mizeur, on 09 April 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Also, you brought up the Spider. That mech obviously needs to be nerfed further. It's totally throwing off balance in the game.

The... Spider. The spider. The..... spider. The Spider? THE SPIDER!

Nope, no matter how I say it, that doesn't make sense. If you want to talk about balance-changing Lights, you should use words that rhyme with "irestarter."

Plus you're all over bad conclusions like "jump snipers need the help," and "the PPC was nerfed to stop poptarts." It seems like you want jump sniping back in the game as a go-to tactic - oh, you might want it back as a less-effective tactic than it used to be, but frankly I'm fine with jump snipers as they are, possibly with minor tweaks. The ability to defeat cover while still using it yourself was/is a huge advantage; any ability to consistently do that again while still using high-alpha weapons will bring back the Bad Old Days. Similarly, claiming that the PPC was nerfed just to stop jump sniping is childishly simplistic and false-to-fact. Jump snipers were a factor, but PPCs were nerfed to combat the pinpoint accuracy issue as well; to simply ignore that argues that you don't understand what's happened in the game despite clearly-worded missives from the actual developers - or that you simply don't care about the facts if they conflict with what you want from the game.

In either case, you're not arguing very convincingly so far.

Thaspider! ThE SpIdEr... Ze spidere...

Edited by Void Angel, 09 April 2015 - 03:11 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Kristov Kerensky, on 09 April 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

That's how it works NOW, prior to the great JJ Nerfage, it was different, I could take my Cataphract directly over and behind another Mech THAT quickly, spinning around in the air while I was JJ, firing as I went up, landing directly behind the target and opening fire before they could spin around. And if they were slower than my Cataphract, I could stay in their rear arc tearing their back out without getting shot in return. Catapults did it to, it was nasty to have a Splat or Streak Cat doing that to you.

Which era was this? Before or after February 2014? Because that's when I started playing, and never have I ever seen a 'Phract or Cat manage to pull that off without a height advantage, and if you have a height advantage you don't need JJs to do it anyway. Instead, those ******** would leap into the air and either pop off a PPC+Gauss wombo-combo before dipping back down behind cover, or they'd have their CTs ripped out while they hung in the air, helpless to alter course, and then die shortly after hitting the ground. JJs have never, in my 15 months of experience, made targets larger than a Firestarter harder to hit. Instead, they merely make your path of travel predictable and your death inevitable because you will be frozen for a split-second after touch-down.

Quote

Now, if you aren't in a Light, and the RIGHT Light at that, that's not really happening very often. You use the JJ to get into the brawl, maneuver around a bit or a lot depending on the Mech, it's doable, it works, you just have to manage your heat because JJs produce heat, as they should, it's not an antigravity device, it's superheated reactant being forced out of nozzles that literally rockets you up/around, tends to be rather warm.

You use them to jump down into a brawl, sometimes up a small ridge to get into it. I've don't use them really, not my play-style. What they should be doing, though, is moving you 40-240 meters forward and some substantially smaller distance upwards on a single press before spending the next 10 or so seconds on cool-down.

[Koniks]

You're all right. You shouldn't be able to use jump jets and deliver sustained DPS at close range unless you're running UACs or Gauss, not SRMs or pulse lasers. Those weapons are obviously meant to be superior at all ranges and every type of engagement.

A jumping CTF-3D should out-brawl a Summoner.

[One Medic Army]

Yeonne Greene, on 09 April 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

Which era was this? Before or after February 2014? Because that's when I started playing, and never have I ever seen a 'Phract or Cat manage to pull that off without a height advantage, and if you have a height advantage you don't need JJs to do it anyway. Instead, those ******** would leap into the air and either pop off a PPC+Gauss wombo-combo before dipping back down behind cover, or they'd have their CTs ripped out while they hung in the air, helpless to alter course, and then die shortly after hitting the ground. JJs have never, in my 15 months of experience, made targets larger than a Firestarter harder to hit. Instead, they merely make your path of travel predictable and your death inevitable because you will be frozen for a split-second after touch-down.

You use them to jump down into a brawl, sometimes up a small ridge to get into it. I've don't use them really, not my play-style. What they should be doing, though, is moving you 40-240 meters forward and some substantially smaller distance upwards on a single press before spending the next 10 or so seconds on cool-down.

Used to be able to do it, I've been in since closed beta, and heavies used to do this crap all the time. Catapults during closed beta, and Cataphract 3Ds when they came out were known for it as well. Highlanders I believe could manage the height initially, but typically used the jets for terrain and faster turn speeds (prior to poptart meta).

[Cyborne Elemental]

Heat generation from JJ's = fine
Thrust & Height cap for max JJ's = Still pretty bad, needs adjustments for stronger thrust and more height to justify the level of heat generated while blimp hovering.

[Deathlike]

Pjwned, on 09 April 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

That has more to do with heatsinks and sub-250 engines getting screwed though.

Not exactly.. it has to do with locked components. It's only excessive when a mech is already in a bad situation.

[Sable]

soo much no, if anything were to happen to jump jets it would need to be total height, all the rest of the adjustments were needed and help stop the poptart meta

[Dirus Nigh]

I play several mechs with jump jets, I dont even notice the heat. It's not a problem man.

[Elkfire]

Wouldn't giving jumpjets a stronger inherent forward thrust help make them better while also not heralding the return of the poptart meta? It seemed like MWLL's jumpjets were a good incarnation, from videos I've seen.

Edited by Elkfire, 09 April 2015 - 08:41 PM.

[Anakha]

I think it would be nice to have like half heat for those mechs with a lot of locked JJ's or just remove it all together the reasons they added it were balanced a long time ago and its not needed now and severely handicaps mechs with lots of locked jump jets like the summoner for example.

[Chuck Jager]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 April 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

You wanna play a MechWarrior Game you need to follow the BattleTech Physics as best you can. It is a BattleTech game not Gundam!

It is based of of battle tech, the lore and the table top game were developed hand in hand. That is very unique and good, but trying to duplicate that really hurts this game. I get really tired trying to separate if someone is quoting some obscure TT rule or just clueless because whatever they are referencing has nothing to do with anything that exists in the game I am playing.

[Chagatay]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 April 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

You wanna play a MechWarrior Game you need to follow the BattleTech Physics as best you can. It is a BattleTech game not Gundam!

Well, if they upped the jump thrust (by a metric fuckton) it would almost be Gundam. I mean we already have a "Minovsky" Jesus box ECM. Just give all mechs that for free and add in "Minovsky" particle <cough> er ECM dispersal missiles or silly powered bazookas (missiles finally have a unique purpose by reduce energy weapon damage output) and voila engaging electronic warfare. The lostech stuff (not lostech per se just can't use advanced tracking with all those stupidly OP Minovsky particles everywhere) is all covered in universe and just about everything is peachy as beam/energy weapons rule that universe.....

Oh yeah need that melee combat as well. Can't forget beam sabres, superheated tomahawks, and other stuff. Crap this more stuff then I originally envisioned sorry, sorry carry on forget I said anything....

Edited by Chagatay, 09 April 2015 - 10:16 PM.

[Xetelian]

Remove JJ heat, it really hurts the MLX and the spider.

[Ialdabaoth]

Give me the ability to thrust forward / sideways in the air (scaled to how many jets I have equipped) and I'm happy.

[kapusta11]

I'd say keep the heat, remove fall damage and add some "jump" to JJs.