143 replies to this topic

[Thomas G Wolf]

Simple answer NO!

[Kali Rinpoche]

No. I'm fine with JJ heat, but they could increase thrust by about .10% though on Class I, and II JJs..

[Summon3r]

Pjwned, on 09 April 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

The heat is fine, it's the thrust that was overnerfed on some (arguably all) mechs and needs to be increased a bit.

this, and i said more then increased a "bit"

[Bobzilla]

Yeah cause lore, and TT.

That argument never gets old. It really makes no sense at all unless you want everything to be that way like clans, armor, ammo, ecm.....

I mean i really don't care about JJ heat, but if they don't act like they did already, why use that as an argument, just pick something logical like.. heat is balance vs non JJ mechs as not all can equip. Which someone will then come back and say crits and slots, but advantage still worth it, but they aren't that great, so lets fix JJ's and tinker with heat after if needed.....

[Sjorpha]

Ultimatum X, on 09 April 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

I'm trying to imagine whether that would actually have value in this game.


Mostly I think it means people would just have an easy time shooting you while you are exposed in the air.


This isn't a table top game, so I'm not convinced that kind of movement ability would actually have the same kind of value as it does on a strategic table top hex map.

It would have a different value than now, and a different value from TT as well, but being able to take a big enough leap over obstacles to actually reposition would be immensely valuable. Especially for heavy brawlers using it to clear distances faster than they can run, jumping primarily into the fight instead of while fighting, at the expense of exposure and heat. A good reasonable tradeoff.

Make it so lighter mechs can maneuver better and have better weapon accuracy in the air rather than jumping higher, while heavy mechs would be clumsy and sluggish in the air but still jump significant distances.

You would also have to learn how to predict your landing position and fall damage before making the jump, a new skill to master.

[Tarl Cabot]

MeiSooHaityu, on 09 April 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

Yep. This was always my interpretation. JJs help certain mechs gain positioning over their opponent. Jumping to high ground or over and behind mechs. It was used for mobility and not poptarting.

Now if the engine and programming could support it, firing while in the air (with ballistics or PPCs) would upset your balance in air and give you an increased chance of falling down once landing.

Sadly, that's not a thing, so we are stuck with less than ideal needs to poptarting.

The original BT they did have to keep it simple, to a point. But with Solaris where turns were 2.5secs instead of 10secs mechs could fire while jumping.

As for JJ heat, it should not be removed. It is being calculated differently than either BT/Solaris, which is understandable though like everything else there is nothing wrong with asking it to be reviewed on the amount being generated.

The sad thing though is that lights and some mediums get to enjoy jump jets whereas the heavies/assaults, using heavier jj, receive lesser benefits. As mentioned, even with max JJ, it is barely enough to get over that rock that is in the way.

The scaling should not be the same for Class 1 JJ as it is for Class 4 JJ. It should be increased the heavier the mech, with the intention that using only one JJ will not suffice, except to get over that little rock. The heavier the mech the heavier the JJ and the fewer the JJ that can be fit onto a mech.

Below is from Smurfy.

Class 1: 4.10 / 50.00 / 90t - 200t (currently 90-100) 2.0 tons each 3-5 max (Highlander/Direwolf S)
Class 2: 4.10 / 68.00 / 80t - 90t (80-85) 1.0 tons each 4-6 max (only Victor)
Class 3: 4.10 / 75.00 / 60t - 80t (60-75) 1.0 tons each 4-7 max (Jester 2jj max)
Class 4: 4.10 / 75.00 / 40t - 60t (40-55) 0.5 tons each 3-7 max (Enforcer 5P 2jj max)
Class 5: 4.10 / 37.00 / 20t - 40t (20-35) 0.5 tons each 4-12 max (Huggin 2jj max)

4.10 is the Horizontal Boost
37-50 is the Vertical Boost

That is from Smurfy, processed from XML file, iirc. Each Class should not have the same weight listed, to reduce possible coding errors in the future. In addition, the leveling of the thrust/boost should start at 3JJ, iirc that is the minimum max JJ on all but 3 mech variants, while simply having 1 or 2 JJ would do very little.

http://mwomercs.com/...ump-jet-update/

Do MWO JJ need to follow BT specs to the "T"? No, but on the heavier mechs they should be more variable than they are now.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 09 April 2015 - 12:47 PM.

[Max Liao]

Bobzilla, on 09 April 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

Yeah cause lore, and TT.

That argument never gets old. It really makes no sense at all unless you want everything to be that way like clans, armor, ammo, ecm.....

I can speak for myself and say that I do want everything like that. Clans should be OP, and dropped 5 Clans vs 12 IS. ECM should be ECM not stealth armor. Armor wouldn't necessisarily need to be doubled. Light 'Mechs should have a very low chance of defeating a heavy or an assault; however, this would require role warfare to actually work and/or an artificial method of ensuring assaults were limited to 1-2 per match.

Yeah, a little off topic, but to those people who think that I -- (again, only speaking for myself) -- only want canon in one instance, I can honestly say that I would prefer it in all instances.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kristov Kerensky, on 09 April 2015 - 12:39 PM, said:

Oh? That wasn't you I quoted earlier about how the Summoner, Victor and Quickdraw are all useless because of the JJ heat mechanic? Mechs which, oddly enough, OTHERS seem to be able to use without the problems you claim make them useless, including myself. That wasn't you? Was that someone who just borrowed your account or something?

It's simple, the mechanic is fine, YOU can't deal with it because you refuse to play to the system and instead want the system changed to suit YOUR playing style. Multiple times you've been told how to deal with the heat issue, but your answer is that due to it, 3 Mechs are totally useless because....

Sure as hell sounds like a standard CoD kiddie response to me.

I think it is worth pointing out that regardless of playstyle or player skill, using jump jets to maneuver in a fight decreases sustained DPS by producing heat. Playstyle does not change that, it is just a fact.

If you want to argue that the heat is balanced by the added maneuverability then that is fine, but personal insults do not help you prove your point.

[Pjwned]

Deathlike, on 09 April 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

The only time where JJ heat makes the least sense is when you have a sub-250 engine with multiple JJs locked in.

I mean, the Mist Lynx is the greatest example of how one never walks out of Mordor alive.

JJs manage to overheat you... it's a great self-suicidal tool.

I'd still rather have Hoverjets™ be more useful than the Mist Lynx's greatest enemy.

That has more to do with heatsinks and sub-250 engines getting screwed though.

[1453 R]

I don't mind jump jets generating heat when they're used. The things are a controlled breach of your fusion reactor, they bloody well should generate heat when used.

I do mind jump jets being largely worthless as terrain traversal systems and reduced to clearing ankle-height boulders or maybe getting over a two-storey building if you have six jets in a medium chassis. The Living Legends route of hurling yourself on a moon launch every time you tap space is too far in the other direction, but damned if I wouldn't prefer uncontrollable moon launches to the anemic garbage we have in the game right now. The solution is so blindingly easy it's disgusting that Piranha hasn't toyed with it.

Constant shake - strong on the way up, weak on the way down - rather than shake on the way up and perfect alignment on the way down. Double jet thrust, at the least - each jet is supposed to be worth between six to ten meters of altitude, yes? A five-jet Summoner had best be able to jump like Jordan, and if you're on a seven-jet Quickdraw you'd best be able to fly.

The jets should throw you in the air quickly, powerfully, and be largely useless for keeping you there. They're jump jets. I want them to be nasty, violent things that feel like lighting off a set of fusion rockets, and I don't care if that makes the 'Mechs themselves feel lighter in comparison as was one of Piranha's excuses. if you put ten tons of jump jets on a Heavy Metal it should get you just as much return as two and a half tons of jets on a Spider, and furthermore the both of those should be kicking around the battlefield like ninety-ton armor-plated fusion-driven kangaroos.

SCREW HoverJets™. I want to be able to get out of a gully in Canyon Network without having to take it in two stages. I want to be able to go up-and-over buildings I can't just see over in River City or Crimson. I want Spiders that take twelve jump jets to have to be careful of reaching escape velocity. I want Victors that light off their four jets in a brawl to move up quickly enough that a medium laser targeting their torso spends the last of its burn time shooting beneath its feet. I want to be able to drop a Summoner on a Dire Whale's head and have that Whale crumple into a heap beneath my feet.

And if it ends up unbalanced as hell for a while...who cares? Who wouldnt have a blast playing Mario for a while before the devs find a way to rein it in a bit? It'd certainly make for some wild matches! People flying all over the place lightning off cannon fire like they're playing Serious Same instead of MWO, 'Mechs configured with max leg armor and the biggest engine they can mount treating their rocket-assisted feet as their primary weapons...I say freaking go for it. No, don't go all the way to Armored Core (though From needs to get their s*** together and release a new Armored Core that doesn't suck all the goat in Creation alread), but we can do better than this.

Come on, Piranha. We can do better than this. This is just embarrassing.

Edited by 1453 R, 09 April 2015 - 01:16 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Burktross, on 09 April 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

Because Summoner Victor and Quickdraw are top tier.
Right?
Right?

No, and I don't recall anyone saying they were. I also don't see people using Timbers with JJ calling for removal of JJ heat, do you? It's top tier without a doubt, and yet...

Mizeur, on 09 April 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

Jumpbrawling was part of the game along with mid-range jumpshooting. Now it's extinct. The game is worse for that.

I also don't play CoD, Battlefield, or any other FPS. I can't recall ever seeing you in-game, so I don't think you know what my playstyle is. So you're making assumptions about me that you have no basis for. And then on top of it you're bringing in your own personal experience.

I haven't discussed you as a person until now. And you have no reason to talk about who I am, either.

Jumpbrawling still exists, you not being able to do it successfully has nothing to do with it being viable and used by many others, myself included. I don't have any issues doing it except in my Lights, as I already said, and that's on me, when I pay a little more attention, it's not an issue even in my Lights. So it's still being done, it still works, despite you being unable to do it successfully due to lack of heat management skills.

Poptarting was removed as a viable tactic because people don't like it, pure and simple. MW2 through 4 it was an incredibly OP tactic due to additional circumstances, like 3PoV that allowed one to see over/around objects without exposing yourself to target the enemy. MWO doesn't allow that, so I personally had no issue with poptarters, I STILL do it myself, the changes meant to curtail it only make it less useful, it's still doable and works, it just requires more skill to pull off.

Neither of those tactics are extinct, you not being able to successfully do them only means YOU are lacking in the proper skill sets to do them successfully. Lacking those skills you want the JJ heat removed, so you can do what others are already doing with the heat.

You've been told multiple times how to deal with the JJ heat, but you refuse to consider answers that don't involve removing JJ heat because YOU can't deal with it. Guess what that is usually called?

Gas, I didn't say ANYTHING about balance issues as they aren't the issue here. Mizeur wants JJ heat removed because he can't do what he wants with the mechanic in place. That's his entire argument, he can't jumpbrawl in a Summoner or Victor because he overheats due to the JJ heat mechanic, so remove it! I have my own opinions on how JJ should be working, but that was not the subject Mizeur brought up, he still hasn't brought it up, he's ONLY complained that the heat caused by using JJ doesn't allow him to play his chosen Mechs the way he wants so it should be removed.

That's the thing folks, Mizeur isn't asking for better functioning JJs, he's not campaigning for any improvements in anything, he just wants the JJ heat removed so he can jumpbrawl in his Summoner and Victor because he can't manage the heat.

[Koniks]

Oh so it's OK to remove jumpsniping because "people don't like it" and couldn't counter it but we can't make jumpbrawling viable because I'm a no-skill CoD kiddie? Your argument makes no sense.

And bringing up what TBRs can do is kind of the point. They have advantages none of the other jumpbrawlers have. Clan XL engine. Clan endo and ferro. JJs that are locked to the omnipod not the chassis. Great hardpoint options. And an 80 point alpha. But even TBR jumpbrawlers have mostly disappeared. We're not going to see a real comeback of TBR jumpbrawlers until the TBR-D side torsos are available for C-Bills.

The mechanic has killed an entire tactic and made a bunch of mechs almost completely non-viable as collateral damage for reining in jumpshooting.

As to jumpbrawling still existing--yeah, no. Laser vomit, gauss vomit, and clan streaks are the meta.

Edited by Mizeur, 09 April 2015 - 01:34 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Mizeur, on 09 April 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

Oh so it's OK to remove jumpsniping because "people don't like it" and couldn't counter it but we can't make jumpbrawling viable because I'm a no-skill CoD kiddie? Your argument makes no sense.

And bringing up what TBRs can do is kind of the point. They have advantages none of the other jumpbrawlers have. Clan XL engine. Clan endo and ferro. JJs that are locked to the omnipod not the chassis. And an 80 point alpha. But even TBR jumpbrawlers have mostly disappeared. We're not going to see a real comeback of TBR jumpbrawlers until the TBR-D side torsos are available for C-Bills.

The mechanic has killed an entire tactic and made a bunch of mechs almost completely non-viable as collateral damage for reining in jumpshooting.

Where exactly did I say I was against poptarting in MWO? I actually said the opposite, it's that post right there, #96 in this thread, I didn't mind the poptarters in MWO, because the things that made them OP in previous MW titles doesn't exist in MWO. I also said I STILL poptart to this day, it's STILL a viable tactic, it just now requires a lot of skill.

And people ARE doing jumpbrawling, it's NOT impossible or even difficult, it just requires you to be able to manage your HEAT, something you are evidently unable to do and unwilling to learn how to do.

I had a TIMBERWOLF land on top of my Urby last night in the middle of a brawl, he jumped in just fine, his landing wasn't so hot, but he came in guns blazing and we tore some Mechs up, both of us jumping around like kids who'd been drinking expresso on a trampoline. I shut down once, he didn't shut down at all, and he was a laser vomit, seriously excellent heat management skills. ln all of my JJ capable Mechs, I do it all the time, both jumpbrawling AND poptarting. Hells, I jumpbrawl constantly in my Nova, gets my arms up higher than my feet so I don't constantly shoot rocks I can't see, don't shut down every time I fire my alpha, I just time my alphas or switch to smaller group firing. As long as I'm being smart and NOT constantly doing a full alpha, I don't shut down and I jumpbrawl like a madman, always have, always will, even in TT I was a JJ abuser. Most of my cockpit kills in MWO are from jumpbrawling, I go for that cockpit shot as I'm jumping at/away from the target, works nicely.

Again, YOUR inability to manage your heat is on you, there's no reason to change the mechanic that doesn't seem to stop the rest of us from doing what you can't simply because you refuse to learn how to manage your heat.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mizeur, on 09 April 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

This game isn't a simulator. And it's not table top. Adding half-measures like jump jet heat while leaving the rest of the arcade features in place doesn't make for good gameplay.

IS jump brawlers are already penalized because they're shorter range, and either slower than Clan mechs or more fragile with an XL engine. Clan JJ brawlers are penalized because most of them have tonnage restrictions. If it makes the TBR-S with D torsos somehow OP, then that can be fixed with more severe negative heat or cooldown quirks.

The Summoner and Victors need the help.

Summoner needs help, but that is not the help it needs, speaking as a Summoner pilot.
Summoner, and all underperforming Omnis need endo unlocked. And Summoner just needs IS caliber quirks.

Jump jet heat is not remotely an issue, unless one is playing alpha strike laservomit warrior online.

[Event Horizon]

I agree, remove JJ heat or at least reduce it so you can cool off while jumping.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

Heat can stay,thrust must be upped on atleast class 1 jump jets.

In all seriousness only thing that was nerfed with the JJ-heat was the Victors and Highlanders ability to brawl and spread damage by jumping.Poptarting still can be done.

[Roadkill]

Mizeur, on 09 April 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

But this is about fixing something that's broken in the current implementation.

Except that it isn't. JJ heat is just fine the way it is now, at least for my builds. Perhaps your builds run too hot?

You say "JJ Brawler" like that's supposed to be a thing. It isn't. JJ are for traversing difficult terrain, not for bunny-hopping CoD-style over enemies in the middle of combat.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 April 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

Summoner needs help, but that is not the help it needs, speaking as a Summoner pilot.
Summoner, and all underperforming Omnis need endo unlocked. And Summoner just needs IS caliber quirks.

Jump jet heat is not remotely an issue, unless one is playing alpha strike laservomit warrior online.

Well, the Highlander's jump jets are pretty hot... could use a tone down there, but they also really need more thrust.

And yes, the summoner is very hard point limited, the prime omni-pods need very serious quirks for sure.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Roadkill, on 09 April 2015 - 02:20 PM, said:

Except that it isn't. JJ heat is just fine the way it is now, at least for my builds. Perhaps your builds run too hot?

You say "JJ Brawler" like that's supposed to be a thing. It isn't. JJ are for traversing difficult terrain, not for bunny-hopping CoD-style over enemies in the middle of combat.

First part I agree with you, second part..not so much. JJ brawling is a thing, has been since TT days, it was just made MORE fun in the MW games because you could JJ AND FIRE at the same time. It's viable and works fine in MWO, it doesn't work GREAT however, but that's not the JJ heat, that's the lack of thrust in the JJs, something we've asked to get redone many times since the 'fix' was done in the first place.

Similar to how it works in TT, JJing in a brawl makes you harder to hit and lets you get directly behind a target during a brawl without having to circle around them, it also makes it harder for you to target precisely, so there is a trade off of heat and lack of precision for the added mobility factor. Also you can JJ OUT of the brawl if things are going pear shaped, or at least try to

[Y E O N N E]

JJ brawling is supposed to mean using the jets to cover ground quickly and get into brawling range, though, which is more or less how it works in TT. In MWO, you could never use JJs to get behind a target unless you were in a Light and you instead just jitter around. It doesn't increase your turn rate, it just f*cks with the system trying to accurately track and transmit your position to the rest of the people in the match.