143 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Sjorpha, on 09 April 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

Nope, it should produce MORE heat combined with actually jumping high and far.

I'm trying to imagine whether that would actually have value in this game.


Mostly I think it means people would just have an easy time shooting you while you are exposed in the air.


This isn't a table top game, so I'm not convinced that kind of movement ability would actually have the same kind of value as it does on a strategic table top hex map.

[Gas Guzzler]

pbiggz, on 09 April 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

I never noticed jumpjet heat, and TBH, id be happier if the jumpjet heat actually scaled to the number of JJs you have, what class those JJs are, how long and far you jump, and your mech's weight, instead we got arbitrary paul numbers because paul is paul and you are wrong as long as he is around.

What I want is for jumpjets to actually lift you more than 5 ******* meters from the ground. Like really, they aren't jumpjets, they're hover jets. And yes, that is also paul's fault. Not only did he implement half baked non-effective jj heat, he also made sure your jumpjets were utterly wasted tonnage.

Closest iv seen to good jumpjets is mechwarrior living legends, where hitting jump puts you on a difficult to control, effectively predefined arc. You jump far, but you are also vulnerable. There is no shake in LL though, so you could still snipe. I would say the living legends jumpjets plus jumpjet shake for as long as you are airborn would be best.

They do scale heat, try jumping in a Highlander with 5 (10 tons worth) JJs and compare to a Firestarter with 1 JJ.

Class I jump jets should either produce less heat, or actually lift the mech in a somewhat brisk fashion. Seriously, they are the heaviest jump jets and are easily the worst.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 09 April 2015 - 10:32 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 09 April 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

I don't care what happens with the heat, I just want JJs to be fun, powerful mobility devices instead of being optimal for minimizing exposure time during sniping battles...

Jumping and Sniping should not be used in a sentence together unless the word Can't is between them.

[Gas Guzzler]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 April 2015 - 10:31 AM, said:

Jumping and Sniping should not be used in a sentence together unless the word Can't is between them.

That is why we use jumpsniping.


When a jumpsniping (600 m is hardly sniping but whatever) Highlander is better and more useful than a 84+ pt alpha Dire Whale, you can complain about jump sniping.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 09 April 2015 - 10:35 AM.

[Koniks]

Read your lore, Joseph. There are plenty of examples of mechs scoring hits while in the air. You can't have it both ways.

Kristov Kerensky, on 09 April 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

The Spider is...what?

Look, if you cannot handle the heat in your brawler build when combined with JJing, MAYBE you should look at the real cause of the issue, YOU. Heat management is part of this game, your personal inability to manage your heat is not a failing or fault in the game, it's a failing or fault in your skill set that YOU can correct.

The Spider comment was sarcasm in response to someone saying Spiders should run even hotter with jump jets.

There's enough heat management from dealing with multiple SRM racks and lasers already. The Victors and Summoners already force you to deal with more penalties than other mechs, let alone other brawlers, even before you account for jump jets. Jump jets are their one advantage. And instead it's been turned into an even bigger disadvantage. They're basically non-viable in the same way that SRM brawlers weren't viable against jumpsnipers in a brawl because the AC5/PPC loadout was still very effective at close range.

Edited by Mizeur, 09 April 2015 - 10:37 AM.

[Pjwned]

Mizeur, on 09 April 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

No, it's the fact that you can't cool down if you jump.

Manage your heat better or get more heatsinks then.

Quote

Being able to jump higher would still leave you vulnerable in a brawler.

I don't know what you expect if you're brawling.

Quote

Addressing thrust alone would benefit only jumpsniping. Which also needs the help.

Except that's wrong because the thrust is so bad on assault mechs they can barely clear small obstacles while going full speed. Additionally, more thrust would mean less time needed to hold spacebar to get the same effect, and thus less time dealing with jumpjet heat generation.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 April 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

When a jumpsniping (600 m is hardly sniping but whatever) Highlander is better and more useful than a 84+ pt alpha Dire Whale, you can complain about jump sniping.

That's the kind of usage that made PGI nerf JJs so much in the first place.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mizeur, on 09 April 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

Read your lore, Joseph. There are plenty of examples of mechs scoring hits while in the air. You can't have it both ways.

There are... three pilots(?) that I know I know of in the lore That is not "plenty" that is the exception.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 09 April 2015 - 10:39 AM.

[Max Liao]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 April 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

You wanna play a MechWarrior Game you need to follow the BattleTech Physics as best you can. It is a BattleTech game not Gundam!

^^ This ... 1000 times this!

Also remember that jumpjets were supposed to be a maneuver component, something that helped a 'Mech get around troublesome terrain. It never was meant to be a combat component. Else in TT they'd let you stop at your apex and fire, before landing and losing your line of sight again.

[Edit: Typeo]

Edited by Max Liao, 09 April 2015 - 10:42 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 April 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

That is why we use jumpsniping.


When a jumpsniping (600 m is hardly sniping but whatever) Highlander is better and more useful than a 84+ pt alpha Dire Whale, you can complain about jump sniping.

No. I can complain about it now if I choose to. Part and parcel of having an opinion I'm afraid.

[Koniks]

Pjwned, on 09 April 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

Manage your heat better or get more heatsinks then.

There isn't tonnage to get more heatsinks. On the Victor, the weapons and ammo weigh too much and you have to dedicate too much tonnage to the engine to even be remotely viable. On the Summoner, you're hardlocked to your engine choice and number of jump jets. And the mech is already ammo limited.

Even without jump jets both mechs would be outclassed by every brawler and the other mid-range builds.

Edited by Mizeur, 09 April 2015 - 10:43 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

FupDup, on 09 April 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

That's the kind of usage that made PGI nerf JJs so much in the first place.

The if the Highlander magically had its capability back when it was at the top (fast PPCs, good JJs) it would still not be competitive in this age of quirked lasers and Clan mechs, but whatever I know no one will ever believe that because they are incapable of understanding how positioning makes jump sniping impossible without exposing yourself to oncoming fire, especially in a slow Highlander.

JJ heat is fine on all mechs, except the Highlander IMO, it just seems too hot, making it unbalanced with other JJ platforms, and makes using JJs with hot weapons very difficult on that Mech alone.

[Rhaythe]

Mizeur, on 09 April 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

There isn't tonnage to get more heatsinks. On the Victor, the weapons and ammo weigh too much and you have to dedicate too much tonnage to the engine to even be remotely viable. On the Summoner, you're hardlocked to your engine choice and number of jump jets. And the mech is already ammo limited.

Then it's not the build for you. If you can't manage a mech's heat, and you can't figure out a build that lets you do so, you're making a bad decision bringing it to a fight. Don't blame the system for your poor tactical decision-making.

[KraftySOT]

Nope. The opposite. More heat and more thrust.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mizeur, on 09 April 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

There isn't tonnage to get more heatsinks. On the Victor, the weapons and ammo weigh too much and you have to dedicate too much tonnage to the engine to even be remotely viable. On the Summoner, you're hardlocked to your engine choice and number of jump jets. And the mech is already ammo limited.

Even without jump jets both mechs would be outclassed by every brawler and the other mid-range builds.

This is only dependent on the pilot using it. I'm pretty sure I'd have little luck with one, but I can easily believe that other players can make them dance!

[MeiSooHaityu]

Max Liao, on 09 April 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

^^ This ... 1000 times this!

Also remember hat jumpjets were supposed to be a maneuver component, something that helped a 'Mech get around troublesome terrain. It never was meant to be a combat component. Else in TT they'd let you stop at your apex and fire, before landing and losing your line of sight again.

Yep. This was always my interpretation. JJs help certain mechs gain positioning over their opponent. Jumping to high ground or over and behind mechs. It was used for mobility and not poptarting.

Now if the engine and programming could support it, firing while in the air (with ballistics or PPCs) would upset your balance in air and give you an increased chance of falling down once landing.

Sadly, that's not a thing, so we are stuck with less than ideal needs to poptarting.

[Koniks]

Rhaythe, on 09 April 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

Then it's not the build for you. If you can't manage a mech's heat, and you can't figure out a build that lets you do so, you're making a bad decision bringing it to a fight. Don't blame the system for your poor tactical decision-making.

Because we should be forced to take FS9s and Huginns if we want to play that style.

Fine, let's just quirk the VTR-9S and SMN-B pods to that level.

ETA: The one advantage mechs like the SMN and VTR have is mobility. The system makes that advantage worthless. Even if they could jump farther or faster it'd still be worthless.

Edited by Mizeur, 09 April 2015 - 10:53 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 April 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

No. I can complain about it now if I choose to. Part and parcel of having an opinion I'm afraid.

Yeah, I know I'm the minority here on the forums, but its pretty sad that a 30 pt alpha can strike so much fear but 50-90 pt alphas are just fine.

[Joseph Mallan]

I'm not so sure about PPC MeiSoo. There isn't a lot of mass in a PPC blast.

[Gas Guzzler]

And stop quoting TT. If this was TT we would roll dice to see where our weapons hit. That is Battletech, not MechWarrior.


Even in MechCommander 2 my pilots shoot while in the air all the time.