359 replies to this topic

[William McNab]

And just like the Martians in War of the Worlds. Because the clans started interacting with the IS they became corrupted and politically motivated instead of goal oreinted. This led to the general downfall of clan honor and therefore the whole structure of their society.

The IS had decades or hundreds of years of war and corruption. That had been bred out of the clans and removed from their society.
Once the clans had to settle back and actually run the worlds they had captured, they were hooped.

Also - fusionaires ... can't forget fusionaires.

[Hunson Abadeer]

Rejarial Galatan, on 07 July 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

had the warden clans not caused the under bid at Tukayyid the clans would not have lost

The Smoke Jaguars made the lowest bid, and they also led the conspiracy to ensure that the Wolves landed last (Invading Clans, 61-62). The Nova Cats were initially opposed to the effort to undermine the Wolves, but they ultimately went along with the plan (Ibid., 117). The Jade Falcons were also instrumental in that plot (Wolf Clan Sourcebook, 47). The Smoke Jaguars actually bid away an entire Galaxy to save face after getting their tails handed to them on Luthien (Tukayyid, 29).

[Starne]

Jad Ivask, on 07 July 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

It should be noted that by Tukkayyid the majority of FedCom units hadn't even reached the front yet. The Davions were still mobilizing. And more to the point the entire Capellaen Confederation hadn't even seen action yet.

The clans being stopped at Tukkayyid was a mercy.

Exactly. I highly doubt that ComStar would've given up Terra without a fight, even if the Clans had won on Tukkayyid. Even if the Clans had taken Terra, there's simply no way the IS would've let them keep it. The Successor States had been fighting over Terra in the literal and symbolic sense for generations. If the Clans had pushed that far, they would've been facing fresh forces from the FedSuns, the Cappies, the FWL, and they still would've had Lyran and Drac forces pushing in on their flanks. Not only would the Clans be forced to overextend themselves, the war would've turned into a drawn-out battle of attrition. A battle the Clans simply could not win.

As I said above, no matter what happened, the Clans were doomed to failure. The more time that passed, the more the IS would close the Tech gap(It's important to remember that Clan technology was fairly stagnant prior to the invasion. Almost all of the newer Clan mechs and technologies were developed in direct response to their experiences in the IS). The more time that passed, the more the IS's numerical advantage would increase.

Oddly, I think that even if the Clans had pushed all the way to Terra, and been beaten there, ComStar and the Clans would've gotten their wish. A long, drawn-out, bloody war against an outside foe would've united the Inner Sphere. Afterwards, the Successor States would be too exhausted to fight each other for awhile, and I wouldn't be surprised if they reformed the Star League, if only to defend against a second Clan Invasion, or other unknown outside threats(1). There would be great pressure to locate the Clan homeworlds and return the favor, which would no doubt lead to all of the Successor States expanding into the Periphery and beyond.

1: You say "NOOB! There are no aliens in BattleTech canon!" I say, it's a big galaxy. And who knows what direction the timeline could've gone following a long drawn-out war with the Clans. There certainly wouldn't have been a Wobbie episode because ComStar would've exhausted itself fighting the Clans, just like everyone else. I have little doubt they would've thrown everything they had into the fight for Terra, and with a little luck, all the hardliners and Blakists would've died glorious deaths in battle with the Clans.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Starne, on 07 July 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

1: The Clans more or less ignored what little intel they had on the IS. They went in expecting small numbers of under-equipped, unskilled enemies, and they can came face-to-face with scores of battle-hardened, often fanatical enemies with access to almost Star League-level Tech. Say what you will about the Succession Wars, they did a good job of honing the armies of the Inner Sphere.

What? Have you even read a sourcebook or a novel? I can prove you are speaking absolute nonsense. Back up your statement. The Clans asked Comstar for detailed intel on each world they were going to hit & used that knowledge in their bidding process. They knew which units were green/regular/experienced/elite. You are speaking utter rubbish. Back that up. I dare you.

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2: I'll take a lot of flak from the Clan Fanboys for saying this, but it's a fact. The Clan idea of "War" is essentially a glorified gladiatorial match with things wagered. Likewise, Clan troops are glorified gladiators. Don't get me wrong, Clan society produces half-decent warriors, but it produces absolutely horrible soldiers, and the "Tacticians" and "Commanders" produced are even worse. There's an old axiom; "If you're fighting fair, you aren't fighting to win." . Armed conflict is a terrible thing, and most attempts to sanitize it or salve your own guilty conscience will only drag it out and make it worse. The faster the war is over, the faster the survivors can go home. If that means using "Dirty tactics" or "Cheating", so be it.

Granted the clan tactics were mostly executed while dealing with other Clans & faced challenges adapting to fighting the IS, however Clan warriors are superior. I have quoted the source material on this many times. The people who made the universe says so. Your opinion is just that & not fact.

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3: See battle of Radstadt. Outnumbered and and outgunned, Rasalhagian Aerospace pilots beat the tar out of the Clan fleet, and even managed to kill the ilKhan. And before anyone says "Oh, the Rasalhagians were defeated at Radstadt!", WRONG. The Elected Prince escaped, and the Rasalhagians inflicted disproportionate casualties and damage on the Clan fleet, and the death of Leo Showers stalled the Clan advance for months. Yes, the Flying Drakons were wiped out, but that's war.

You are making my Sunday morning so wonderfully cheerful, I must thank you. Absolute & utter rubbish. First off the "Battle of Radstadt" was not a planned military operation. The FRR's Prince tucked his tail between his legs & ran from the Clans, then jumped smack dab in a system with Clan forces. The fighters escorts had to scramble to buy him enough time to keep running with his tail still tucked between his legs. Everybody was caught off guard in that moment.

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It was as much a shock for the Norseman to see Clan warships, led by the huge Dire Wolf, as it was for the Clans to see the Norsemen and its companions. Surrender must have been considered, but must surely have been overridden by the need to extract the Elected Prince from this unexpected trap.

Beat the tar out of what fleet?

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The fighting equalled the ferocity of the battle on Rasalhague. The Flying Drakons got off one pass against the Dire Wolf virtually unopposed, because the pilots of the Golden Keshik were not prepared for combat. Antiaircraft fire from the Dire Wolf's weapons was ineffective. However, the Dire Wolf survived the first pass with only minimal damage to its in-system engines and flight decks.

The fighters of the Golden Keshik had to brave heavy enemy fire to launch themselves clear of the Dire Wolf, but were soon offering heavy opposition to the Flying Drakons strafing.

First off, you seem to be unable to differentiate between victory & defeat. The Drakons jumped to Radstadt because the FRR LOST the initial battle. The Prince was fleeing. You do not flee when you win. When they jumped to Radstadt the Prince had to flee AGAIN. Not sure where you are from, but if all you do is flee you are not winning ****. The Drakons got wiped out. Credit to Tyra for making a suicide run but having the ilKhan on the bridge at that moment was luck & not a brilliant military strategy. Try this on someone who has not read the source material.

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Frankly, I doubt that even if all 19 Clans had fully mobilized their "Toumans", and attacked the IS all at once that they would've fared any better in the long run.

Operation:Klondike begs to differ.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 08 July 2012 - 09:24 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Jad Ivask, on 07 July 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

The level of hypocrisy in this sentence alone is delicious.

where is the hypocrisy? I back all my arguments with facts & not half-truths or exaggerated stats. exactly what is written in a novel or sourcebook. Back up what you said there. I dare you.

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The clans -even united- might have been able to drive all the way to Terra, even with ComStar pulling an Army out of their colon. But they sure as hell aren't holding it, or any other planet they overcome early on. It is simply a matter of numbers and capacity. Sure, it may take four IS mechs to take down a single clanner, but unlike the Clans, the IS has both the numbers and the production capacity (and the sheer bloody mindedness) to send in eight mechs just to make sure.

You just contradicted yourself. If Revival was like Klondike they would not have had the production capacity. The FWL was contracted to push out the new designs of mechs because they were not seeing any action unlike the DC, FC or FRR. If they were themselves being invaded it would be a totally different story. If the FWL was under attack they would not be shipping the mechs they made to the other Successor States.

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Congratulations. You Spartan Way warrior society has stupendously capable warriors fighting to uphold their greatest ideals. Too bad the enemy your neo-tribal space nazis* (I will forever love that term and make use of it now) outnumbers your ubermensch more than ten to one.

Meat wins. The Clans don't have enough of it. They would have made one hell of a big dent, but their war was doomed. And even better, the IS would have recovered it's population far faster, rebuilt it's forces, and launched a riposte into Clanner territory before the clan Spartan Ways could have recouped even a single combat devision. The sea of "inferior mechs and freebirth filth pilots" now get to crash against clan forces on their own turf, whereupon the already strained clanner production and population bases will be either captured or destroyed.

Which was my point. If all the Clans were invading at once that would not be the case. What already strained clanner production? Show me where it was strained. I dare you. How would the IS recover it's population faster & rebuild its forces when the Clans create their population in iron wombs by sibkos while the IS has to wait for natural means? What absolute nonsense are you talking about? Where do you spheroid stravag surats get this stuff from? (I think I like that term & will forever make use of it )

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Clan warriors may be "Blooded" but they can't breathe it, while the IS have more than enough stored up to drown every clanner in existence. It's attrition, the most basic and brutal form of warfare, and your precious clans don't stand a chance against it.

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Yes it's barbaric. But barbarians win. Principled powers end up fighting massive low-level insurgencies for decades on end before the slow bleeding out drives them off. The solution is as straightforward as it is distasteful, but the IS will do it while the Clanners whine and moan about honor, conduct and ritual.

You are the same one that said it took four IS mechs to take down one Clan mech yet you talk about slow bleeding out? Each clan would simply bring more sibkos from the homeworld & by YOUR math, each Clansman would be worth 4 IS pilots. You really did not think this through did you?

Also for the record, as mentioned in the sourcebooks, when the Clans returned after the "Year of Peace", they altered their tactics & no longer did any gross or unnecessary underbidding:

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With this new offensive, the Clan warriors had two major surprises for the Inner Sphere. The first was a move away from competitive precision-bidding. If more troops could conquer a world more quickly, then more troops attacked. Low bids were not quite as low as they had been a year ago.

Wolf Sourcebook - Pg.43

Jad Ivask, on 07 July 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

The clans being stopped at Tukkayyid was a mercy.

For the Inner Sphere. Damn right.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 08 July 2012 - 09:22 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

In the end it would be sheer NUMBERS against the clans.

The amount of conventional armies
The amount of WORLDS
The amount of battlemechs

Even if they took Terra they would never be able to hold it or the worlds in between due to sheer logistics.

[Jad Ivask]

Starne, on 08 July 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

Oddly, I think that even if the Clans had pushed all the way to Terra, and been beaten there, ComStar and the Clans would've gotten their wish. A long, drawn-out, bloody war against an outside foe would've united the Inner Sphere. Afterwards, the Successor States would be too exhausted to fight each other for awhile, and I wouldn't be surprised if they reformed the Star League, if only to defend against a second Clan Invasion, or other unknown outside threats(1). There would be great pressure to locate the Clan homeworlds and return the favor, which would no doubt lead to all of the Successor States expanding into the Periphery and beyond.

All in al, I really wish the setting had gone like this. No magical army appearing out of nowhere, no elite pre-Succesion War defenders of Terra. But instead a kind of brutal, society wrecking warfare that makes everyone involved (that being well, everyone) dig deeper than they ever had before, just to fight a bloody near-pyrric victory. Ending with the battered and defeated clan retreating to their worlds, know that they have to change, and change fast to survive. And the IS knowing that they need to unite, and unite fast, in order to advance and survive.

Then it turns into an actual conflict of titanic foes, with pressure building and building until something gives.

[Jad Ivask]

Jaroth Winson, on 08 July 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

What already strained clanner production? Show me where it was strained. I dare you. How would the IS recover it's population faster & rebuild its forces when the Clans create their population in iron wombs by sibkos while the IS has to wait for natural means? What absolute nonsense are you talking about? Where do you spheroid stravag surats get this stuff from? (I think I like that term & will forever make use of it )

Look at the size of clan space. Now look at how many worlds they hold and the populations of those worlds. Now look at the absolutely asinine ways they generate their equivilent of an officers corps and army.

Now look at the Inner Sphere. Take the simple exercise in mental capacity to ballpark the population base and do the math from there.

Jaroth Winson, on 08 July 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

You are the same one that said it took four IS mechs to take down one Clan mech yet you talk about slow bleeding out? Each clan would simply bring more sibkos from the homeworld & by YOUR math, each Clansman would be worth 4 IS pilots. You really did not think this through did you?

Comparitive numbers. The IS can afford to lose entire divisions by the score in a single week of battle, and have more on site to pick up where the others left off. It's not much of a loss for them.

Meanwhile, the Nazi Space Spartans lack both the population to replace their "warriors" in totality (remember, pathetic freebirths can't be Mechwarriors in the vast majority of clans) and the industrial capacity to recoup entire toumans being wiped out. "But they can grow them by the sibko!" you'll shout. Good for them. Too bad the IS already has a massive reserve of already trained pilots to throw at you while you send your newly grown sibkos to Agogi.

Attrition. You lose.

You may now begin your flailing fanboy response.

Edited by Jad Ivask, 08 July 2012 - 09:57 AM.

[Kelthar]

There were a lot of reasons that the clan invasion could never work beyond the shock point, most of which have been covered by others.

The clans have a very stratified caste system with warriors at the top. If the warriors loose, the rest of their society falls in behind the winner. In the IS the clans found out that the real world doesn't work that way. They not only had to take a world they had to hold it.

Just overall numbers.

Industrial capability. In as much as the IS was actually in a recovery mode before the invasion, their industrial capacity and capability was increasing for the first time in centuries. Give them a common enemy and they kick into overdrive.

And, the IS did actually have a technological advantage in a couple of areas, most notably C3 and ECM. It will be interesting to see if/how they implement C3 master and slave computers in MWO.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Jad Ivask, on 08 July 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Look at the size of clan space. Now look at how many worlds they hold and the populations of those worlds. Now look at the absolutely asinine ways they generate their equivilent of an officers corps and army.

Now look at the Inner Sphere. Take the simple exercise in mental capacity to ballpark the population base and do the math from there.

A nonsensical reply because if it is a numbers game as YOU say, the Clans still push out more people faster than the IS & the fact that those that become warriors are better trained & from a younger age adds to YOUR point that 4 IS pilots = 1 Clan pilot. Those are the facts. How about you think before you type instead of spewing nonsense that can be refuted by the source?

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Comparitive numbers. The IS can afford to lose entire divisions by the score in a single week of battle, and have more on site to pick up where the others left off. It's not much of a loss for them.

You are clearly confused. The Clans can do that. The Clans produce their warriors off of an assembly line. Wow how much farther are you willing to sink in the swamp of your ineptitude?

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Meanwhile, the Nazi Space Spartans lack both the population to replace their "warriors" in totality (remember, pathetic freebirths can't be Mechwarriors in the vast majority of clans) and the industrial capacity to recoup entire toumans being wiped out. "But they can grow them by the sibko!" you'll shout. Good for them. Too bad the IS already has a massive reserve of already trained pilots to throw at you while you send your newly grown sibkos to Agogi.

Attrition. You lose.

Attrition. The Clans win.

You keep arguing a numbers game & the fact that it would favor the Clans seems to keep escaping you. Thank you for making my points for me. Assembly line beats natural reproduction all the time. Also whoever the ilKhan is, still has the option to activate more Clans as reserves.

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You may now begin your flailing fanboy response.

You may continue to spew your IS nonsensical response that helps my case. Thank you spheroid.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 08 July 2012 - 11:36 AM.

[Hunson Abadeer]

Only 20-25% of sibko members typically make it to the Blooding, which then further whittles down their numbers (Invading Clans, 146, 148). It is true that trueborn children are ready to be warriors before reaching adulthood (Classic BattleTech RPG, 39), but the vast majority still would not make it into the warrior caste. If the Clans lowered their standards to increase their numbers, then they would be fleshing out their ranks with inexperienced children with an average skill level much more similar to their Inner Sphere counterparts.

In 3059, the crusaders had a total of 240 Clusters with about half of those being provisional/garrison/solahma (Field Manual: Crusader Clans). Clan Star Adder alone accounts for nearly 22% of the total and nearly 27% of the second-line units. Both Clans Wolf and Jade Falcon were struggling to recover from the Refusal War two wars later (Ibid.), and that speaks to the fact that the Clans would not necessarily be able to easily recover from losses. In 3061, the wardens had a total of 254 Clusters with Clans Ghost Bear and Steel Viper accounting for nearly 41% of that number (Field Manual: Warden Clans).

[Thorn Hallis]

Starne, on 08 July 2012 - 06:34 AM, said:

If the Clans had pushed that far, they would've been facing fresh forces from the FedSuns, the Cappies, the FWL, and they still would've had Lyran and Drac forces pushing in on their flanks. Not only would the Clans be forced to overextend themselves, the war would've turned into a drawn-out battle of attrition. A battle the Clans simply could not win.

This I doubt. Romano Liao wouldn't sent anything (maybe some tires). And Thomas Marik...even as a former Comstar acolyte, I think he would know that sending untried troops against the Clans would be complete suicide. And he would have to convince the FWL parliament to help a foreign power, one that crippled the league during the 2nd Succession War. I doubt Oriente and the Border Protectorate would have been happy to see their troops helping Comstar.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Exactly Thorn. Thomas Marik's FWL was sending mechs ONLY, no troops. The CC chose not to participate because of Romano Liao's (well I am not sure what to call it, uh how about) stubbornness & her refusal to see reason.

Hunson Abadeer, on 08 July 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

Only 20-25% of sibko members typically make it to the Blooding, which then further whittles down their numbers (Invading Clans, 146, 148). It is true that trueborn children are ready to be warriors before reaching adulthood (Classic BattleTech RPG, 39), but the vast majority still would not make it into the warrior caste. If the Clans lowered their standards to increase their numbers, then they would be fleshing out their ranks with inexperienced children with an average skill level much more similar to their Inner Sphere counterparts.

In 3059, the crusaders had a total of 240 Clusters with about half of those being provisional/garrison/solahma (Field Manual: Crusader Clans). Clan Star Adder alone accounts for nearly 22% of the total and nearly 27% of the second-line units. Both Clans Wolf and Jade Falcon were struggling to recover from the Refusal War two wars later (Ibid.), and that speaks to the fact that the Clans would not necessarily be able to easily recover from losses. In 3061, the wardens had a total of 254 Clusters with Clans Ghost Bear and Steel Viper accounting for nearly 41% of that number (Field Manual: Warden Clans).

To your first point. It is a known fact that not all of the trueborns created from the iron wombs become warriors & maybe even less so after the Blooding but the fact is that, whatever number is final is worth individually more than their IS counterparts & they are still produced together in an assembly line fashion which is STILL faster than the IS.

To your second point, the fact REMAINS, if the same scenario had occurred between say the Draconis Combine & the Federated Commonwealth, they would never be able to replenish troops as fast as the Clans. The iron wombs tips the scales in favor of the Clans. Also Clans fighting Clans would be fought on equal ground with the same level of tech & in the rare case of two Clans actively trying to decimate each other (like the Refusal War) it would indeed put a strain on both Clans to refill the ranks of their respective toumans. Nobody is denying that. It is simply the fact that how the Clans do things in terms of filling up their fighting forces, is a LOT more expedient.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 08 July 2012 - 12:21 PM.

[Arctic Fox]

Jaroth Winson, on 08 July 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

You are clearly confused. The Clans can do that. The Clans produce their warriors off of an assembly line. Wow how much farther are you willing to sink in the swamp of your ineptitude?

The Clans produce warriors off an assembly line? I'm not an expert in the Clans' eugenics program, so correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't being born in an iron womb still mean that you have to undergo as much training as anyone else? I doubt the Clans could just clone fully grown 'Mech piloting experts like that.

Jaroth Winson, on 08 July 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

Attrition. The Clans win.

You keep arguing a numbers game & the fact that it would favor the Clans seems to keep escaping you. Thank you for making my points for me. Assembly line beats natural reproduction all the time. Also whoever the ilKhan is, still has the option to activate more Clans as reserves.

The Clan Homeworlds had a population of little more than one billion people, and only a tiny precentage of those are actual warriors. A single prominent planet in the Inner Sphere is more likely than not to have a population exceeding that by a huge margin; the IS has literally thousands of times the population base of the Clan Homeworlds. Even accounting for increased population growth because of artificial reproduction, I can't see any way the Clans can replace manpower losses nearly as fast as the Inner Sphere can.

Just to put it in perspective. Counting conventional units, the combat forces ComStar deployed to Tukayyid alone had more troops than the entire Clan warrior caste, and the ComGuards were one of the smallest militaries in the Inner Sphere.

Edited by Arctic Fox, 08 July 2012 - 12:33 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Arctic Fox, on 08 July 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

The Clans produce warriors off an assembly line? I'm not an expert in the Clans' eugenics program, so correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't being born in an iron womb still mean that you have to undergo as much training as anyone else? I doubt the Clans could just clone fully grown 'Mech piloting experts like that.

I did not mean it literally. I was drawing a reference to creation time of the individual as opposed to the IS. Of course they have to go through training. Oh just for the record, they CAN create clones, however they rarely choose that option:

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The Clan Homeworlds had a population of little more than one billion people, and only a tiny precentage of those are actual warriors. A single prominent planet in the Inner Sphere is more likely than not to have a population exceeding that by a huge margin; the IS has literally thousands of times the population base of the Clan Homeworlds. Even accounting for increased population growth because of artificial reproduction, I can't see any way the Clans can replace manpower losses nearly as fast as the Inner Sphere can.

Yes but like most socities save for the Spartans who we are clearly not dealing with here, the military is a fraction of the entire population & a small one at that. Also given the superiority of the clan warrior to his IS counterpart it would either break even or exceed them in terms of an actual fighting force.

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Just to put it in perspective. Counting conventional units, the combat forces ComStar deployed to Tukayyid alone had more troops than the entire Clan warrior caste, and the ComGuards were one of the smallest militaries in the Inner Sphere.

Back that up with some stats for me.

[Stormwolf]

Arctic Fox, on 08 July 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

Just to put it in perspective. Counting conventional units, the combat forces ComStar deployed to Tukayyid alone had more troops than the entire Clan warrior caste, and the ComGuards were one of the smallest militaries in the Inner Sphere.

The Clans didn't deploy all their troops on Tukayyid, they actually bid away units during the initial bidding for cities and landing times.
Comstar outnumbered the Clan troops on Tukayyid, not the entire warrior caste.

Edited by Stormwolf, 08 July 2012 - 01:00 PM.

[Arctic Fox]

Jaroth Winson, on 08 July 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

I did not mean it literally. I was drawing a reference to creation time of the individual as opposed to the IS. Of course they have to go through training. Oh just for the record, they CAN create clones, however they rarely choose that option:

Even those still seem to have to grow up normally, though. They're just genetic clones, not instant MechWarriors.

Jaroth Winson, on 08 July 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Yes but like most socities save for the Spartans who we are clearly not dealing with here, the military is a fraction of the entire population & a small one at that. Also given the superiority of the clan warrior to his IS counterpart it would either break even or exceed them in terms of an actual fighting force.

That would assume the precentage of Clan population that is actually part of the military is extremely high compared to that of the Inner Sphere. Is there anything to indicate that that is the case?

Jaroth Winson, on 08 July 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Back that up with some stats for me.

Clan Warrior Caste numbers are 110,500 (that's for all Clans, not just the invading ones) according to Warriors of Kerensky. It's set in 3062, but I don't think the numbers would be that different than in the 3040s/3050s. Based on their OOB in 20 Years Update and TO&Es in Field Manual: ComStar, the ComGuards deployed 4,394 Infantry Level Is to the Battle of Tukayyid. A Level I is equivilant to a Platoon of 28 men. As such, ComStar's combat infantry alone numbered around 120,000 men, without even getting into MechWarriors, AeroSpace pilots and vehicle crews.

[Chuggernaut]

Gremlich Johns, on 07 July 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

I would not agree. CBS was the victim of poor writing. If you read any of the NBT RP that we did, we were well on the way to re-writing everything about CBS, after about 3057..

That's exactly what I said: you're throwing out everything that has been established about the Blood Spirits in favor of a total rewrite so that your favorite faction can be at the center of all major plot events. They were introduced as crazy jerk isolationists, they stayed crazy jerk isolationists, and they were eventually wiped out BECAUSE they were crazy jerk isolationists (cataclysmic disasters, you know. Eggs in one basket). Poor writing would be if they suddenly did a full 180 after being crazy jerk isolationists for over a century and then somehow united all 19 Clans into one cohesive military that didn't have any infighting or anything, because it discards all consistency with other material.

[Gremlich Johns]

Chuggernaut, on 08 July 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

That's exactly what I said: you're throwing out everything that has been established about the Blood Spirits in favor of a total rewrite so that your favorite faction can be at the center of all major plot events. They were introduced as crazy jerk isolationists, they stayed crazy jerk isolationists, and they were eventually wiped out BECAUSE they were crazy jerk isolationists (cataclysmic disasters, you know. Eggs in one basket). Poor writing would be if they suddenly did a full 180 after being crazy jerk isolationists for over a century and then somehow united all 19 Clans into one cohesive military that didn't have any infighting or anything, because it discards all consistency with other material.

You are certainly welcome to your narrow view. However, you will find that most clan-oriented players consider Jihad, DA or both just alternate realities of what should have happened. "We" tend to take the broader view of events, despite your distaste for the Clans.

CBS did a full 180 after the Wolverine incident and that did not take too much time after how many years of being the CBS envisioned by Nicholas. Alternate realities can be brought about just as easily as the Jihad and DA garbage was. Something like I suggest, given the raison d'etre of the Clans (especially that of Clan Blood Spirit - or have you not read much about them and the other clans?), could have been accomplished during the 15 year Truce period after Tukayyid - specially considering how entrenched Clan society was by the end of 3052. Not any more farfetched considering Jihad and DA.

BTW, those "crazy jerk isolationists" were respected as warriors by the rest of the Clans - they may not have been liked very much, but they were not to be underestimated. (probably because nobody messes with a crazy person on purpose)

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 08 July 2012 - 01:45 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Arctic Fox, on 08 July 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Even those still seem to have to grow up normally, though. They're just genetic clones, not instant MechWarriors.

What I mean is they can control the expansion of their population in general which of course would have a percentage of warriors. They can basically simply order another batch & another & another because the wombs are artificial.

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That would assume the precentage of Clan population that is actually part of the military is extremely high compared to that of the Inner Sphere. Is there anything to indicate that that is the case?

Not saying that at all, as we know the military is a small percentage of the population but their training makes up for it as the universe attests to.

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Clan Warrior Caste numbers are 110,500 (that's for all Clans, not just the invading ones) according to Warriors of Kerensky. It's set in 3062, but I don't think the numbers would be that different than in the 3040s/3050s. Based on their OOB in 20 Years Update and TO&Es in Field Manual: ComStar, the ComGuards deployed 4,394 Infantry Level Is to the Battle of Tukayyid. A Level I is equivilant to a Platoon of 28 men. As such, ComStar's combat infantry alone nu
mbered around 120,000 men, without even getting into MechWarriors, AeroSpace pilots and vehicle crews.

This has nothing to do with your claim about ComStar deployments on Tukayyid outnumbered all the Clans toumans. That is what I want stats for. Also what page of Warriors of Keresnky are you referring to?

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 08 July 2012 - 02:06 PM.