33 replies to this topic

[Burakumin1979]

PGI is unwilling/unable to put the heat scale back down to 30 (or some other limiting value).

PGI is unwilling/unable to address convergence to get us away from silly COD like play.

Keeping PGI from touching damage values seems to be a good idea at this point.

So....multiply armor by 4. Deceases TTK, easily implemented, makes assault mechs important in tactics (a push can be a push without instant death from only one other mech.)

The surprisingly fast matches of this game has always been odd considering the tactics and survivability in past mechwarrior games.

Fights can't be decided just at long range and brawling is almost inevitable.

[Christof Romulus]

Wait, so when you say multiply armor by 4, do you mean double what we have now, or double base armor by 4?

And right now we have doubled internal structure, would that also be 4x base, or 2x what we have now?

[Felio]

I'm willing to entertain anything to increase TTK. Personally I would rather see mechs face penalties for equipping too much firepower. Or throttle how much damage can be done over a period of seconds somehow.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Mechs actually do kinda last a bit when not being focused. And hell, ive watched mechs get focused and still last a surprisingly long time despite the fire on them. 2x armor is enough. 4x would just be stupid, you realize how long it would take to bore through 4x+quirked legs on a light?> 30t already have the leg armor of a 40t mech or more....then 4x it?

[Mcgral18]

I think it would be more effective to simply add more hitboxes, and perhaps return to TT armour for each of those subsections.


Give different robots different sections, such as an Atlas having 3 ST hitboxes per side, meaning (depending on implementation) it would require 3 torso sub-section to be destroyed when using an isXL engine.



Theoretically, it's a simple enough to implement, add new hitboxes, change death parameters.
In reality, you'd also have to deal with hitreg having so many options, how does damage transfer work with a middle section?
Also...legging would naturally become the go to killing tactic, which would require a leg change as well.
Too many variables for me.

This also helps mechs with terrible hitboxes; they could have the largest amount of sections, which would make them more durable, while mechs with ideal hitboxes or hardpoints could be made more fragile with fewer additions (but not completely obsolete as in the past).



Anyhow, it's unlikely for anything to ever change. Rather than address the 3x damage, 3x heat, 2x armour, 1x dissipation, PGI now has 5x damage, 2.x heat, 2.x times armour(quirks) and 1x dissipation.

Well, if it's any consolation for PGI...it could have been more complicated.

[cSand]

TTK is not bad unless you are being focused in which case what do you expect? Even with 4X armor if a few guys are gangbanging you it's gonna end fast.

A guy getting the full meal deal from 2+ mechs should die fast. That guy has made a mistake by presenting himself to that situation.

I'd like Ferro to be able to add more armor so it is a worthy upgrade, and also increasing survivability a bit.

But the TTK boogeyman is not all he's cracked up to be

[ThirtyOughtSix]

cSand, on 09 April 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

TTK is not bad unless you are being focused in which case what do you expect? Even with 4X armor if a few guys are gangbanging you it's gonna end fast.

A guy getting the full meal deal from 2+ mechs should die fast. That guy has made a mistake by presenting himself to that situation.

I'd like Ferro to be able to add more armor so it is a worthy upgrade, and also increasing survivability a bit.

But the TTK boogeyman is not all he's cracked up to be

I agree here but wonder if the culprit for quick TTK isnt 12 man matches? With 12 man your much more likely to run into a group of 4 mechs than if you are in a 8 man. Think about it more mechs on field means more pain for mistakes. Just sayin....

[LordKnightFandragon]

Hyper99, on 09 April 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

I agree here but wonder if the culprit for quick TTK isnt 12 man matches? With 12 man your much more likely to run into a group of 4 mechs than if you are in a 8 man. Think about it more mechs on field means more pain for mistakes. Just sayin....

Yeah, game should go back to 8v8 for pug Q....there is alot more room to move, alot more open spaces and gaps in the line. Ofc, coordination and skill play a bigger role then...

[Wintersdark]

Burakumin1979, on 09 April 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

PGI is unwilling/unable to put the heat scale back down to 30 (or some other limiting value).

PGI is unwilling/unable to address convergence to get us away from silly COD like play.

Keeping PGI from touching damage values seems to be a good idea at this point.

So....multiply armor by 4. Deceases TTK, easily implemented, makes assault mechs important in tactics (a push can be a push without instant death from only one other mech.)

The surprisingly fast matches of this game has always been odd considering the tactics and survivability in past mechwarrior games.

Fights can't be decided just at long range and brawling is almost inevitable.

Rule of thumb: If your idea seems like a simple solution to a long standing problem, you've overlooked something critical and are about to embarass yourself.

[Kristov Kerensky]

1v1 combat, two Mechs of the same chassis and loadout, TTK is actually kind of high, 30+ seconds baring a cockpit kill.

Walk a Raven into the dual AC20s of a King Crab, TTK isn't so high, 8 to 10 seconds, and that's kind of the point.

Walk a King Crab in front of 12 enemy Mechs who all fire at you at once, TTK is probably under 1 second, 1.5 if you twist right, and that's rather the point again.

Hyper, walking in front of 12 or 8, the TTK is still going to be under 2 seconds no matter what you are in, focus fire from more than 2 Mechs is going to reduce TTK to less than 4 seconds usually, that's just how it works.

TTK in what other games of the FPS genre are as high in a 1v1 as in MWO? I can't think of anything myself, BF, CoD, Quake, Unreal, PlanetSide2, TTK 1v1 is under 10 seconds usually, baring instakills, which are also common in FPS genre games.

LordKnightFandragon, I don't know if you simply don't remember what it was like in the 8v8 or what, but it wasn't much different than it is now, it just went a BIT faster because there was only 8 per team to kill instead of 12. The maps were small and crowded back then too, because just like now, the murderball was the primary tactic, so no one actually went off and did things on their own, except the suicide farmers.

[cSand]

Hyper99, on 09 April 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

I agree here but wonder if the culprit for quick TTK isnt 12 man matches? With 12 man your much more likely to run into a group of 4 mechs than if you are in a 8 man. Think about it more mechs on field means more pain for mistakes. Just sayin....

I hear ya.

In the solo queue it's probably not as big of a deal since everyone just kinda runs all over anyways (mostly )

In the group queue yes, but also in the group queue I think the assumption is that you're also rolling with more people close by (well you should be anyways !) so that should mitigate some of the focus fire.

Some of the maps though are smaller and get pretty crowded, which obviously leads to more bullets flying all over and a bigger chance to run into an angry mob.

It'd be nice to see 8 players teams on the smaller/medium maps, and 12 player teams on the bigger ones

Edited by cSand, 09 April 2015 - 02:10 PM.

[Rebas Kradd]

The best solution to raising TTK is lowering the number of mechs in-game.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

IMO keep fighting for what needs to happen (fix heat), not just add another bandaid to the pile. Don't settle.

[Wintersdark]

Ok, so here's the problems with 4x armor (I'm going to assume you just mean doubling armor again):

1) It's incredibly awesome for assaults, and totally screws lights and mediums. This because the Atlas goes from ~100 to ~200 front CT armor. The Locust goes from 20 to 40. The Atlas takes substantially longer to bring down, but the Locust is just two-shot instead of one-shot.

2) Ammo weapons become much worse, energy weapons become better. This is apparent already in the Hunchback 4G (and why it needed such harsh quirks) - lighter mechs with heavy weapons rely on a quick kill. Longer TTK requiring more hits (which will typically be spread more, so it's not a linear increase) means those lighter mechs (who've already gained less due to point 1) are even more screwed as they lose the alpha-strike advantage they had earlier. Even if you double ammo per ton, as the rounds realistically used per kill are more than doubled, they're still worse off afterwards.

3) Weapon damage becomes less relevant, DPS more. This causes a number of balancing issues, where high damage weapons generate substantially more heat. The AC20, for example, loses even more value relative to the AC5, as the DPS differences are not particularly noticable vs. the massive tonnage and range differences.

So, what you're doing is making TTK longer primarily for Heavies and Assaults, but not noticably for Lights and Mediums. Our queues are already heavily weighted towards Heavies and Assaults, with the light queue in particular very sparse and Mediums not having much of a role. Going to 4x armor would make this even worse, all the while throwing a wrench into weapon balance (ammo/t and weapon stats both need substantial reworking)

Kristov Kerensky, on 09 April 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

LordKnightFandragon, I don't know if you simply don't remember what it was like in the 8v8 or what, but it wasn't much different than it is now, it just went a BIT faster because there was only 8 per team to kill instead of 12. The maps were small and crowded back then too, because just like now, the murderball was the primary tactic, so no one actually went off and did things on their own, except the suicide farmers.

It's been my experience from the start of 12v12 that TTK isn't particularly different from the 8v8 days unless you foolishly wander out in front of 9+ enemy mechs at the same time. And in those cases, it really doesn't matter: After 4 mechs are firing at you, you're going to fall apart so fast it doesn't matter anyways.

Just don't play peek-a-boo with a firing line. Patience increases TTK more than anything else.

[Pjwned]

Nice, let's just make light mechs completely irrelevant and encourage literally nothing except laser vomit, great idea.

Wait, it's a terrible idea.

[Gladewolf]

your memory of past MechWarrior games may be a bit hazy, considering that getting single legged in MW4 was a kill...and fully customizable battle mechs, with absolutely crazy alpha strikes, meant matches may have gone on longer do to the sheer terror of poking your head out ........ever.

Edited by Gladewolf, 09 April 2015 - 02:24 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gladewolf, on 09 April 2015 - 02:22 PM, said:

your memory of past MechWarrior games may be a bit hazy, considering that getting single legged in MW4 was a kill...and fully customizable battle mechs, with absolutely crazy alpha strikes, meant matches may have gone on longer do to the sheer terror of poking your head out ........ever.

TTK in the previous titles was pretty short, it didn't SEEM as bad due to respawns however, that's what throws people off on their nostalgia trips, they remember the rounds lasting longer, they forget the WHY...

[dubplate]

Felio, on 09 April 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

I'm willing to entertain anything to increase TTK. Personally I would rather see mechs face penalties for equipping too much firepower. Or throttle how much damage can be done over a period of seconds somehow.

It'd be nice if there was a reason to have loadouts where you may need a variety of ranges to be effective. I am not overly familiar with TT but my understanding is a lot of the stock loadouts are like they are because they weren't modified and needed to be useful in a variety of situations. I've wondered about having a limit on how much damage can be done over a time but I don't think that would go over well.

I don't think TTK is too bad but a bit of an increase would be nice. We seem to be doing more damage now than when double armor was introduced and more mechs on the field doesn't help.

[Burktross]

RIP lights forever

[Wintersdark]

Pjwned, on 09 April 2015 - 02:19 PM, said:

Nice, let's just make light mechs completely irrelevant and encourage literally nothing except laser vomit, great idea.

Wait, it's a terrible idea.

Exactly.

As I said at the start, simple solutions aren't. Obviously, they've considered increasing armor, but it's not simple. The same applies to basically any "Simple Solution" people come up with.

Rizzelbizzeg, on 09 April 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

IMO keep fighting for what needs to happen (fix heat), not just add another bandaid to the pile. Don't settle.

Probably. But it's unlikely to happen because that's a MAJOR change now, and would require rebalancing pretty much everything.

Don't get me wrong, I'm extremely on the side of low cap/high dissipation forcing firing weapons spread out to avoid overheat but to better allow continuous weapons fire.

But I'd eat my underwear if they actually did this.