51 replies to this topic

[Chocowolf Sradac]

it's pretty atrocious the price difference of the clan mechs vs the is counterpart to get in and play where the is mechs have much better quirks and much more playable

[Durant Carlyle]

Clans are different. There is no swapping one engine from 'Mech to 'Mech, and that's not going to change.

Better to get into the habit of each 'Mech having its own engine anyway, as if you do CW mode, you need multiple fully-equipped 'Mechs.

I have 104 'Mechs, each and every one fully equipped with an engine and weapons. The 30 or so I drive most each have their own set of modules, and that number grows slowly but surely.

[Chocowolf Sradac]

Durant Carlyle, on 11 April 2015 - 10:25 PM, said:

Clans are different. There is no swapping one engine from 'Mech to 'Mech, and that's not going to change.

Better to get into the habit of each 'Mech having its own engine anyway, as if you do CW mode, you need multiple fully-equipped 'Mechs.

I have 104 'Mechs, each and every one fully equipped with an engine and weapons. The 30 or so I drive most each have their own set of modules, and that number grows slowly but surely.

indeed the price tag isn't so bad for those of us that's been around for awhile and have the c-bills to burn though it's a problem for our pugs and newer players that just don't have those c-bills to get their own mechs for CW

[Tesunie]

bad arcade kitty, on 11 April 2015 - 09:46 PM, said:

that's pretty obvious. but i have to buy some omnipods, like in the kfx example, i have to buy kfx-s legs if i want jump jets, have to buy a kfx-d arm if i want missiles etc.

but regardless, what mostly annoys me, it's not even the price, you don't get me, it's that i pay that price not for getting a shiny new hardpoint or a shiny new upgrade like in the case of is mechs, i already have those upgrades, i already have those hardpoints for cheap, no, the only reason why i pay it it's because i need to unlock the elite skill tree. that money spending to buy what you already have for cheap just to unlock a skill tree feels extremely unrewarding

This is no different than the IS having to buy "subpar" (not really my stand point or words) variants to get a mech up.

One of the hidden strengths of the Clan mechs is, if you really like a build and do well in it, you can set up every mech (or almost every mech) of that chassis to those exact specs and play all the variants needed to master it with the same build.

Consider also, IS players tend to have to buy DHS and Endo (typically as minimum upgrades) to get their second and third mechs skilled up for elites/mastery, and often times they are just going to sell those mechs and not get any money back from those upgrades. For you, it comes built it. When you sell your mech, your DHS and Endo/FF upgrades add to your selling prices as well. Your mechs are more expensive, but they also sell back for more and can be easier to skill up overall compared to an IS mech. (You can also easily keep them for alternative customs if desired, and set it up as any of the other clan mechs thanks to Omnipods being switched out.)

Basically, you pay for your flexibility in loadouts. IS pay for upgrades. (Though I agree it is expensive for a new player. Then again, clan mechs work better in skilled players hands instead of new players hands, with longer beam durations, ACs that ripple fire, etc. Skilled players can keep their aim on target for longer durations, which means they take advantage of clans higher DPS...)

[dragnier1]

Chocowolf, on 11 April 2015 - 10:09 PM, said:

it's pretty atrocious the price difference of the clan mechs vs the is counterpart to get in and play where the is mechs have much better quirks and much more playable

What price difference? My raven 3L cost me 13++ million cbills to outfit. My shadow hawks cost me 8++ million to outfit (not counting the engine i bought which they initially shared).

You just can't see the hidden costs unless you work them out in smurfy.

Edited by dragnier1, 11 April 2015 - 10:58 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

dragnier1, on 11 April 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

What price difference? My raven 3L cost me 13++ million cbills to outfit. My shadow hawks cost me 8++ million to outfit (not counting the engine i bought which they initially shared).

You just can't see the hidden costs unless you work them out in smurfy.

when you buy a clan chassis you always buy an engine as well

but, as i have said, the worst it's that when you buy another shadow hawk or raven you get access to something which you didn't have before, a new energy/missile/ballistic hard point or something while when you buy a new omni version... you already have all that, you just waste millions to unlock some pilot tree skills

see, what they suggested to me, to play omni mechs like is ones not buying the omni pods from other versions, lol

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 11 April 2015 - 11:42 PM.

[Rogue Jedi]

bad arcade kitty, on 11 April 2015 - 09:46 PM, said:

1) that's pretty obvious. but i have to buy some omnipods, like in the kfx example, i have to buy kfx-s legs if i want jump jets, have to buy a kfx-d arm if i want missiles etc.

2) but regardless, what mostly annoys me, it's not even the price, you don't get me, it's that i pay that price not for getting a shiny new hardpoint or a shiny new upgrade like in the case of is mechs, i already have those upgrades, i already have those hardpoints for cheap, no, the only reason why i pay it it's because i need to unlock the elite skill tree. that money spending to buy what you already have for cheap just to unlock a skill tree feels extremely unrewarding

1) Then buy the KFX-S first so you already have those Omnipods with JumpJets to swop out when you are leveling the other Kit Foxes.

2) that is just as much of a problem with IS Mechs, for example:
the Spider, for as close a comparison to your Kit Fox as possible, you can Master your Kit Foxes with a spend of about 18 million cbills, where as a Spider will costs 19.5 million IF you purchase an XL255 and share it between the 3 variants, really the 5v wants a 285 which adds another 4.6mil taking total spend to 24.1 million, the Spider has 2 good variants (the 5D and 5K) while the 5V is the most fun Mech in the game due to high speed and lots of JumpJets giving it the best mobility of any Mech in the game it is not really effective as a combat Mech.

based on that you can see that the Kit Fox is actually somewhat less expensive than the Spider, and while they perform different roles nether are top tier chassis and nether are bottom tier chassis due to both having unique capabilities

[Koniving]

bad arcade kitty, on 11 April 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

let's suppose i have a mech, for instance a kfx-prime, i bought a kfx-c right arm, a kfx-d left arm, kfx-s left and right legs, it still counts as kfx-prime, fine. now let's suppose i also bought and installed a kfx-s head, a kfx-s center torso, a kfx-s right torso, a kfx-s left torso, a kfx-s right and left arms... my cute fox is still kfx-prime despite all her pods are now kfx-s!

It canonically makes sense -- since there are no variants of Omnimechs. Only "common" configurations (which got the letter designations). It's all one mech with different equipment used on the Omnipods. In theory you could off set it by having 3x as many skill points necessary to get the unlocks in the tree.

But PGI didn't go this route. They wanted to make sure you had to spend around as much as any Inner Sphere player on your mech.

Edited by Koniving, 12 April 2015 - 03:14 AM.

[DrSlamastika]

n o

[Stealth Fox]

Koniving, on 12 April 2015 - 02:51 AM, said:

It canonically makes sense -- since there are no variants of Omnimechs. Only "common" configurations (which got the letter designations). It's all one mech with different equipment used on the Omnipods. In theory you could off set it by having 3x as many skill points necessary to get the unlocks in the tree.

But PGI didn't go this route. They wanted to make sure you had to spend around as much as any Inner Sphere player on your mech.

But that wouldn't fit the bill of PGI trying to make it hard to buy stuff to unlock thus force us to buy from them.


you know.. PGI ..if you ever look at your own fricken forums.. people are a lot more likley to buy a lot more stuff..if it is cheaper.

I my self am a hell of a lot more likely to buy a mech or fricken 20 if it costs me .. what.. 10 bucks? then if I have to fork out 30 or more to get something you are gonna eventually nerf to hell.

Maybe if they dropped the price on crap instead of making it so expensive, or maybe charge the money they need (Want) for something we can actually hold in our hands. (10 inch High articulation models sold for 4 times the making cost?) Then there would be a better way for you to make money.

I mean hell.. pay 30 bucks for a digital item? ..not so inclined.. pay 150 bucks for a detailed articulate pose-able, playable and displayable mech of my choice? Well I might just have to get every single damn mech in the inventory...

*Slaps hands on the table and stands up* Screw it..is that a thread? is it? I'm gonna make it a thread if it isnt.

[PurpleNinja]

I tried to use the same argument with a car dealer once, and also got no discount.
Capitalism.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

bad arcade kitty, on 11 April 2015 - 05:36 PM, said:

let's suppose i have a mech, for instance a kfx-prime, i bought a kfx-c right arm, a kfx-d left arm, kfx-s left and right legs, it still counts as kfx-prime, fine. now let's suppose i also bought and installed a kfx-s head, a kfx-s center torso, a kfx-s right torso, a kfx-s left torso, a kfx-s right and left arms... my cute fox is still kfx-prime despite all her pods are now kfx-s! if i want to get kfx-s to unlock elite skill tree i should buy kfx-s version for the full price (!) regardless how many kfx-s spare parts i already have, i will have zero discount for having them and have to sell them for a half of their price. i think it's ridiculous. they could link changing the version to changing the head slot (and make it significantly more expensive) or the center torso or something, but right now it's imo ridiculous, you are forced to waste millions for something which you already have (it includes buying an unmovable engine for each of the versions) for a fraction of that price simply to get a skill tree unlock

That, bold...italic, underlined portion of your post...

Yeah, you can't change the CT of any of the variants... it will ALWAYS be the variant you bought.

So if you bought a T-wolf Prime, your CT will ALWAYS be a T-wolf prime CT... you can NEVER swap it.

Outside of that, yes you are correct, it's technically no longer a prime once you've flopped everything else... BUT, that was true for all clan mechs even in lore... While you may be changing the majority of the weaponry, it's still TECHNICALLY a prime, just with changed up omnipods.

It's a technicality. You bought a prime, you're using a prime, even if it's a mishmash of everything.

[Yokaiko]

Durant Carlyle, on 11 April 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

Please tell me how Clan Omnis require six million extra C-Bills to get up and running. You cannot change the internal structure, armor, engine, heat sinks, or fixed equipment. That's the most expensive stuff. If you're spending an extra six million C-Bills, you're doing it wrong.

It's the Inner Sphere BattleMechs that require extra C-Bill investment to get the upgrade goodies, not Clan Omnis.

And to the OP...

No, you can not now, nor will you ever be able to, get discounted new 'Mechs. It doesn't work that way.

An OmniPod isn't the whole limb or torso section. It's simply the parts that can be easily swapped out to fit different weapons. You still have to have the base torso/arm/leg to work with.

6mil no, 2 to 4 certainly, you pay for the entire thing up front, and when you get into assaults there is another 1.2 chaning omni pods (because you can't save a stripped CT) and THEN the weapons to your choice.

...and yes buying OMNI pods is JUST the limb section, if you move one from one mech to another the pod is stripped when added to the new mech.

[990Dreams]

The Center Torso dictates chassis information, so you cannot swap it, because swapping it would make it a whole other Mech.

[Chuanhao]

I understand your pain.

For those that know about the need for 3 variants per chassis to realise master level, I would never have bought the KFX-S pods on its own.

I would just have bought the mech and then mix and match.

What I dont like however, is to pay for the same "fixed" engine so many times. It like having to pay for 3 x expensive XL engine, when I only need one.

So I was always hoping that anyone who owns more than one variant gets a discount from the second in view of this engine thing.

but its wishful thinking.

[Tesunie]

Grisbane, on 12 April 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

in lighter mechs there is almost no price difference.. in heavies and assaults the price difference to fully equip is astronomical.. costs me 12-14 million to get an Atlas or King Crab ready for battle.. that is 3-5 million less than a bone stock Direwhale. Then you add on weapons, the fact you almost have to change at least 1 omni-pod then the high cost of clan weapons.. not worth it whatsoever.

This will depend upon how you rig up your assaults. If you place a large XL engine into your assault (I wouldn't like it, but some people do it), suddenly... That IS assault mech got very expensive. Also, you are including purchasing weapons for your clan mechs, and an optional Omnipod change out (much like an XL engine for an IS mech), but you seem to not consider the cost of IS weapons in your calculations.

I think one of the points that needs to be mentioned here is, if you already owned that clan weapon (just as people are making mention of IS players already owning that XL engine and the weapons needed to customize), then the technical cost of your Direwolf (whatever clan mech) just dropped. If you already owned the omnipod from another variant of that clan mech? Then it just got cheaper.

In the end, it basically (if you do it wisely) costs about the same as an IS mech fully kitted out. IS can share engines, clans can share Omnipods.

In the above example, instead of separately purchasing the S pods for the Kitfox, one could instead start leveling the Kitfox with the S variant (which the pods come at a slight discount last I knew compared to purchasing individually). Then, move those pods around from variant to variant (along with it's weapons if desired) or mix and match as you progress your Kit Fox's skill levels and by the additional variants needed to master.

It's like purchasing the Enforcer 5D first for it's XL engine, and then purchasing the other two Enforcers afterwards and using that XL engine in those as well. Just, instead of an engine switching places, it'd be your omnipods (and weapons possibly) you'd be switching. (If you even had to, you could only do minor alterations to the "best" stock version of that clan mech for cheap, and then use that to expand on future variants as you buy them. Sure, it may be more difficult, but can save you a lot more C-bills that way in the long run.)

[Stealth Fox]

Tesunie, on 12 April 2015 - 03:30 PM, said:

Lotta stuff I'm not gonna actually quote

No!, STOP!, you're putting up logical facts against my argument that makes it seem like it is not as big a pain in the ass as it is! D=< Stop destroying my ****** number crunching with better number crunching!

Knew i shoulda played more Math Blaster >_>

Edit:
Ass gets through the filter?

Edit:
Holy crap it does!

Edited by Seph MacLeod, 12 April 2015 - 03:40 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

> In the above example, instead of separately purchasing the S pods for the Kitfox, one could instead start leveling the Kitfox with the S variant

but if i play kfx-s i would probably need to get rid of its right and left torso buying kfx-prime ones because i don't want 6 jj but only 4 and i want some torso space for ammo. no, omni mechs are supposed to be played swapping pods

> In the end, it basically (if you do it wisely) costs about the same as an IS mech fully kitted out. IS can share engines, clans can share Omnipods.

yeah, i see. but as i have said twice, it feels very unrewarding because in the case of clan mechs the only reason to buy other versions it's to unlock the elite skill tree while with is mechs you get new available build options too

it's like a reverse side of the omnipods' advantage in flexibility, you simply don't need other versions except for a very artificial reason. if only their center torsos had more drastic quirk difference or something

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 12 April 2015 - 03:43 PM.

[Tesunie]

bad arcade kitty, on 12 April 2015 - 03:41 PM, said:

> In the above example, instead of separately purchasing the S pods for the Kitfox, one could instead start leveling the Kitfox with the S variant

but if i play kfx-s i would probably need to get rid of its right and left torso buying kfx-prime ones because i don't want 6 jj but only 4 and i want some torso space for ammo. no, omni mechs are supposed to be played swapping pods

> In the end, it basically (if you do it wisely) costs about the same as an IS mech fully kitted out. IS can share engines, clans can share Omnipods.

yeah, i see. but as i have said twice, it feels very unrewarding because in the case of clan mechs the only reason to buy other versions it's to unlock the elite skill tree while with is mechs you get new available build options too

it's like a reverse side of the omnipods' advantage in flexibility, you simply don't need other versions except for a very artificial reason. if only their center torsos had more drastic quirk difference or something

May I remind though, not all IS variants of a chassis are created equal (or so people say). I recall a time when everyone wanted the Raven 3L, but no one wanted the 2X or 4X. They had to grind with those two to elite the 3L, and then sell them. But first they had to spend money on DHS and typically Endo minimum.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do about the current implementation of clans. However, Clans shouldn't get a free pass to Mastery that ends up becoming cheaper than IS comparable aspects. Yes, Clans are a bit more pricey upfront. But in the end, it's fairly even when everything is considered. (Oh, and I've worked with IS mechs stock many times as I ground out the C-bills to farther customize them. You think Clans have it hard? Do it with Single Heat sinks, and whatever base weaponry is standard on your mechs... with slow standard engines typically considered too small for MW:O standard playing metas...)

Clans start out with an improved XL engine, DHS, many of them have Endo or FF (if not both) already installed... All this come standard. If you have to play a mech stock, Clans already have an advantage over most of the IS. And when it comes to "must haves" for the two, IS typically have (what many refer to as) a DHS "tax". Clans can be played right from purchasing with few problems. (Some of them, remove something and armor it up more and you are typically good.)

[bad arcade kitty]

Tesunie, on 12 April 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

However, Clans shouldn't get a free pass to Mastery that ends up becoming cheaper than IS comparable aspects.

yeah, obviously

but at least if the center torsos had significantly different quirks i would feel that i pay for something except the skill unlock

right now it's like (for the aforementioned kfx)

ACCELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 15.00 % ACCELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 15.00 % ACCELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 15.00 % DECELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 15.00 % DECELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 15.00 % DECELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 15.00 % TORSO TURN ANGLE (YAW): 3.00 TORSO TURN RATE (YAW): 10.00 %
for kfx-prime

ACCELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 15.00 % ACCELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 15.00 % ACCELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 15.00 % DECELERATION RATE (LOW SPEED): 15.00 % DECELERATION RATE (MED SPEED): 15.00 % DECELERATION RATE (HIGH SPEED): 15.00 %
for kfx-s

so much difference... and it is completely negative one too, kfx-s simply doesn't have the yaw bonuses

so you pay millions to lose the minor yaw bonuses, simply amazing