25 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

I was meaning to write up other stuff, but then I was killing things today in MWO, so I didn't get the chance to write a Mist Lynx or Dire Wolf. For that, I apologize.

I had been tinkering with some of the omnipod quirks from the new/current batch... just trying to optimize a bit (it's a PITA... but for a min-maxer, it's kinda fun and expensive).

The only KNOWN use for that is to increase the max reverse speed cap for mechs... as this was initially introduced to MWO when the Phoenix Pack was released (Oct 2013). However, we didn't have UI 2.0 (and it sooooo works as intended right?) so it was hard to get the info that was needed.. at least for me.

Now we have the opportunity to understand this feature.... for science.

So, I'll briefly explain the quirk in 3 parts... because it's magical.

1) Background - Did you know the Hellbringer is as agile as the Timberwolf (and the Nova, Summoner, Maddog, and Gargoyle) w/o quirks?
2) Usage - Who is your quirk daddy and what does he do?
3) Thoughts - Whose bright idea was to link speed to all this stuff?


1) Background - I'm doomed with writing all this stuff

One of the things that has been often mentioned, but often not understood is how speed is related to a lot of other things in MWO... where the not-speed tweaked AND not-quirked IS Mediums that run @ 81 kph are "as agile" as the Clan Heavies that run @ the same speed.

This is honestly why they needed many different quirks (mostly torso twisting) to compete. The speed directly controls Acceleration, Deceleration, Turn Speed, AND Torso Twisting (including Arm movement - there may be more that I'm not aware of though).

I can't say that I like this design as MW4 proved that having various and different attributes allow uniqueness in a chassis. A 81 kph Light is technically the same agilitywise as a 81kph Medium, a 81kph Heavy, and a 81kph Assault (like the Gargoyle). It's sad but true.

So, if you thought the sub-250 trudub issue was a problem, this is just one more issue on the table.


Reverse speed is usually 2/3 or 66.7% of the mech's top speed. There are exceptions to that rule... particular the Phoenix Pack Lights... where they are 75% of the mech's top speed.

This is listed as +12.6% reverse speed in the UI. To calculate this...

.667 [aka 66.7%] * (1 + .126) [reverse speed bonus) = ~.75 [aka 75%]

When you increase the reverse speed... I suggest you look @ the mouse hover over graphs that the mech has. The easiest comparison is to compare the Hellbringer and the Timberwolf for confirmation of them "being the same" statwise (although, please don't use the Timberwolf-S as that has negative torso twist quirks, and will obviously have a slower torso twist value).

Anyways, Compare the Commando-2D to the any other Commando that is not the Death Knell.

For the Commando-2D, you can see the speed on the X-axis in the graph change a bit when it hits the "2/3 speed mark".

The Commando-1B (as an example) has that graph "moved over" a bit towards the right.

Remember how Reverse Speed is 2/3 of the max top speed? When quirked, the "top speed" is "moved over"... towards where it would be "75%" top speed. Compare the graphs.

Everything else seems to revolve around the new 75% value, instead of the previous 66%. This implies that you'll get indirect benefits for other aspects (accel, decel, and turn speed).

I could be totally wrong (it wouldn't be the first though), but the mech becomes more responsible as a result.


I wrote a long while ago about trolling in Commandos... and while I did have tons of fun (trolling bad Lolcusts w/o quirks), I had thought most of the benefits could be attributed to a large engine (I did use the bigger engines)... I think the increased agility is actually more contributed to the Reverse Speed tweak.

Since the game is built completely around a formula for the all things I've mentioned, it might not be farfetched that this isn't a placebo... rather Reverse Speed quirks actually makes mechs more agile. The Adder gains the greatest benefit (up to +15% reverse speed).... not that will make it a lesser Badder.

So, how do we use this?


2) Usage - Who doesn't like Mr. Pototohead?

It's easier to test out with the omnipods on the legs... since a number of the quirked clan mechs have said quirk. Just add the appropriate omnipods on the legs, and you can see the graph "shift over" to the right side a bit more.

If you are an IS user, you should use smurfy's to identify mechs that have said quirk... like the Urbie or some of the sub-35 ton Lights. It is somewhat night and day depending on the mech and playing it for a bit. Of course, you could always find a few outliers (Highlander-733P, Highlander-732, Trebuchet-5J). So... it's a limited set, but I'm sure there will be more soon™.

What does this all mean for the future?


3) Thoughts - I thought the acceleration quirks were exciting... and the Gargles...

While these quirks don't mean Clans OP in any way.. it does make many of the bad Clan Mechs a bit better. On the other hand, the Mist Lynx is still a terribad mech... and in need of its own separate thread. Regardless... this is a better boost for agility that is well needed, but you need to commit to 5% (both leg omnipods or CT-based quirk) to make it useful. Who would have thought a quirk that only increased the Mist Lynx reverse speed slightly (like 2kph or so) would actually be more useful in disguise?

Ironically, I did the research with the Adder (it has the best reverse speed quirks) when I wanted to optimize.. and found the graph fascinating... and I needed/wanted to manipulate that further.

Go figure right?

Note: As an aside, the future speed loss nerf when losing a Clan XL side torso will inevitably affect all of the above... like what legging does to a mech... where reverse speed quirks can still mitigate the effects (reduction in accel, decel, turn speed is the result of an altered top speed), but moving @ 40kph (sub-Dire Wolf speeds) or 50kph (with the lame speed retention module) will still be a drag.


Constructive comments and feedback appreciated. Let me know if I'm actually talking about a placebo or if that I'm not actually talking out of my arse. Thanks.

[stjobe]

Deathlike, on 12 April 2015 - 07:20 PM, said:

One of the things that has been often mentioned, but often not understood is how speed is related to a lot of other things in MWO... where the not-speed tweaked AND not-quirked IS Mediums that run @ 81 kph are "as agile" as the Clan Heavies that run @ the same speed.

This is honestly why they needed many different quirks (mostly torso twisting) to compete. The speed directly controls Acceleration, Deceleration, Turn Speed, AND Torso Twisting (including Arm movement - there may be more that I'm not aware of though).

Engine rating.

Engine rating affects speed (including reverse speed), acceleration, deceleration, turn speed, torso twist, arm twist.

Go to smurfys, pick a 'mech. Click on the Torso/Arm column. Play with the Engine Rating slider.

Having engine rating affect so many things, and the absolutely insane Pilot Skill system (not least of which is the double basic upon elite) that makes every 'mech in the game too damn fast and too damn agile.

Edited by stjobe, 12 April 2015 - 09:54 PM.

[627]

Sooo.... Commando OP?

[Deathlike]

stjobe, on 12 April 2015 - 09:52 PM, said:

Engine rating.

Engine rating affects speed (including reverse speed), acceleration, deceleration, turn speed, torso twist, arm twist.

Go to smurfys, pick a 'mech. Click on the Torso/Arm column. Play with the Engine Rating slider.

Having engine rating affect so many things, and the absolutely insane Pilot Skill system (not least of which is the double basic upon elite) that makes every 'mech in the game too damn fast and too damn agile.

Yea, I never thought it was intertwined that much more. Oh well.

I thought it was a useless upgrade, until the find. Reverse speed of like nothing is still nothing. However increased performance of the other stuff? Yes please.

627, on 12 April 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

Sooo.... Commando OP?

Well, the Commando-2D would technically suffer (along with the TDK to a lesser extent)....

[luxebo]

The Reverse speed quirks heavily favor LRM or extreme range builds (CERLL/ERLL, Gauss, etc).

I like the Adder's reverse speed; you can load 1xLPL 3xER ML and vomit forever and whenever you need to pull back to cover it takes only a split second to get there. Before it took a bit of time.

[Deathlike]

luxebo, on 12 April 2015 - 11:00 PM, said:

The Reverse speed quirks heavily favor LRM or extreme range builds (CERLL/ERLL, Gauss, etc).

I don't think that's the case. It's actually favoring naturally fast mechs... which also includes the Gargoyle (but indirectly made the Nova worse than it should be).

Quote

I like the Adder's reverse speed; you can load 1xLPL 3xER ML and vomit forever and whenever you need to pull back to cover it takes only a split second to get there. Before it took a bit of time.

Before the Adder got its quirks, I found it to be somewhat lacking in the sense that it was technically no better than the Stormcrow... but the bigger problem was that the Stormcrow had torso twist quirks and the Adder got nada. Sad.

Edited by Deathlike, 12 April 2015 - 11:11 PM.

[Evan20k]

Anansi is a great spider because of it's extremely punchy alpha coupled with insane poking ability enabled by the reverse speed quirk.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

What this tells me is that the reverse speed quirk isn't actually a direct quirk.

Accel/Decel/Turn Rate all are separated into 3 points to form that graph. One is for stand still, one is for being at top speed, while the other is for some middle speed (essentially the walk MP). That middle speed is where accel/decel/turn rate tend to flat-line meaning you don't gain much maneuverability between "walking" and running max speed. It just so happens that reverse speed is tied to your middle "walking" speed just as it was in TT (you couldn't run backwards in other words). So rather than just affect the reverse speed, what this quirk is really doing is boosting your middle speed which the reverse speed is tied to which in turn boosts your maneuverability below top speed and especially the lower end speeds.

I don't know how I feel about these quirks because on one hand, it definitely makes the reverse speed quirks a lot better than I thought they were, but on the other hand, it may make the accel/decel/turn rate quirks a little less valuable. Though I guess it depends on the mech, for hill humpers the reverse speed quirk is greatly beneficial since it boosts all low end speed responsiveness where as mechs that tend to push/brawl/skirmish would prefer the individual boosts because they need responsiveness while at max speed to be more effective.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 13 April 2015 - 10:45 AM.

[Deathlike]

WM Quicksilver, on 13 April 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

What this tells me is that the reverse speed quirk isn't actually a direct quirk.

Accel/Decel/Turn Rate all are separated into 3 points to form that graph. One is for stand still, one is for being at top speed, while the other is for some middle speed (essentially the walk MP). That middle speed is where accel/decel/turn rate tend to flat-line meaning you don't gain much maneuverability between "walking" and running max speed. It just so happens that reverse speed is tied to your middle "walking" speed just as it was in TT (you couldn't run backwards in other words). So rather than just affect the reverse speed, what this quirk is really doing is boosting your middle speed which the reverse speed is tied to which in turn boosts your maneuverability below top speed and especially the lower end speeds.

I don't know how I feel about these quirks because on one hand, it definitely makes the reverse speed quirks a lot better than I thought they were, but on the other hand, it may make the accel/decel/turn rate quirks a little less valuable. Though I guess it depends on the mech, for hill humpers the reverse speed quirk is greatly beneficial since it boosts all low end speed responsiveness where as mechs that tend to push/brawl/skirmish would prefer the individual boosts because they need responsiveness while at max speed to be more effective.

Well, the legs have been getting 3 different quirks for the most part (well, a 4th if you are actually counting)...

1) Accel/Decel
2) Turn Speed
3) Reverse Speed
4) Increased Structure

The 4th has only some value if you get legged often (but many mechs that suffer from legging have reinforced legs)... and the Accel/Decel buff isn't too useful at this point (only 5% bonus tops, best to stack with other Accel/Decel buffs) and Turn Speed isn't significant enough to make a difference I think...

Reverse Speed chart....

(assuming that .667 or 66.7% is the reverse speed base)

No Buff: 66.7%
+2.5%: 68.4%
+5.0%: 70.0%
+7.5%: 71.7%
+10.0%: 73.4%
+12.5% (+12.6%): 75.0% (75.1%)
+15%: 76.7%

I don't think the a 2.5% increase is worthwhile, but a 5% increase gets you to 70% which is fairly sizable, but I could be wrong on the 2.5% increase (someone can do the math/charts), but it is what it is.

[Gyrok]

Deathlike, on 12 April 2015 - 07:20 PM, said:

I was meaning to write up other stuff, but then I was killing things today in MWO, so I didn't get the chance to write a Mist Lynx or Dire Wolf. For that, I apologize.

I had been tinkering with some of the omnipod quirks from the new/current batch... just trying to optimize a bit (it's a PITA... but for a min-maxer, it's kinda fun and expensive).

The only KNOWN use for that is to increase the max reverse speed cap for mechs... as this was initially introduced to MWO when the Phoenix Pack was released (Oct 2013). However, we didn't have UI 2.0 (and it sooooo works as intended right?) so it was hard to get the info that was needed.. at least for me.

Now we have the opportunity to understand this feature.... for science.

So, I'll briefly explain the quirk in 3 parts... because it's magical.

1) Background - Did you know the Hellbringer is as agile as the Timberwolf (and the Nova, Summoner, Maddog, and Gargoyle) w/o quirks?
2) Usage - Who is your quirk daddy and what does he do?
3) Thoughts - Whose bright idea was to link speed to all this stuff?


1) Background - I'm doomed with writing all this stuff

One of the things that has been often mentioned, but often not understood is how speed is related to a lot of other things in MWO... where the not-speed tweaked AND not-quirked IS Mediums that run @ 81 kph are "as agile" as the Clan Heavies that run @ the same speed.

This is honestly why they needed many different quirks (mostly torso twisting) to compete. The speed directly controls Acceleration, Deceleration, Turn Speed, AND Torso Twisting (including Arm movement - there may be more that I'm not aware of though).

I can't say that I like this design as MW4 proved that having various and different attributes allow uniqueness in a chassis. A 81 kph Light is technically the same agilitywise as a 81kph Medium, a 81kph Heavy, and a 81kph Assault (like the Gargoyle). It's sad but true.

So, if you thought the sub-250 trudub issue was a problem, this is just one more issue on the table.


Reverse speed is usually 2/3 or 66.7% of the mech's top speed. There are exceptions to that rule... particular the Phoenix Pack Lights... where they are 75% of the mech's top speed.

This is listed as +12.6% reverse speed in the UI. To calculate this...

.667 [aka 66.7%] * (1 + .126) [reverse speed bonus) = ~.75 [aka 75%]

When you increase the reverse speed... I suggest you look @ the mouse hover over graphs that the mech has. The easiest comparison is to compare the Hellbringer and the Timberwolf for confirmation of them "being the same" statwise (although, please don't use the Timberwolf-S as that has negative torso twist quirks, and will obviously have a slower torso twist value).

Anyways, Compare the Commando-2D to the any other Commando that is not the Death Knell.

For the Commando-2D, you can see the speed on the X-axis in the graph change a bit when it hits the "2/3 speed mark".

The Commando-1B (as an example) has that graph "moved over" a bit towards the right.

Remember how Reverse Speed is 2/3 of the max top speed? When quirked, the "top speed" is "moved over"... towards where it would be "75%" top speed. Compare the graphs.

Everything else seems to revolve around the new 75% value, instead of the previous 66%. This implies that you'll get indirect benefits for other aspects (accel, decel, and turn speed).

I could be totally wrong (it wouldn't be the first though), but the mech becomes more responsible as a result.


I wrote a long while ago about trolling in Commandos... and while I did have tons of fun (trolling bad Lolcusts w/o quirks), I had thought most of the benefits could be attributed to a large engine (I did use the bigger engines)... I think the increased agility is actually more contributed to the Reverse Speed tweak.

Since the game is built completely around a formula for the all things I've mentioned, it might not be farfetched that this isn't a placebo... rather Reverse Speed quirks actually makes mechs more agile. The Adder gains the greatest benefit (up to +15% reverse speed).... not that will make it a lesser Badder.

So, how do we use this?


2) Usage - Who doesn't like Mr. Pototohead?

It's easier to test out with the omnipods on the legs... since a number of the quirked clan mechs have said quirk. Just add the appropriate omnipods on the legs, and you can see the graph "shift over" to the right side a bit more.

If you are an IS user, you should use smurfy's to identify mechs that have said quirk... like the Urbie or some of the sub-35 ton Lights. It is somewhat night and day depending on the mech and playing it for a bit. Of course, you could always find a few outliers (Highlander-733P, Highlander-732, Trebuchet-5J). So... it's a limited set, but I'm sure there will be more soon™.

What does this all mean for the future?


3) Thoughts - I thought the acceleration quirks were exciting... and the Gargles...

While these quirks don't mean Clans OP in any way.. it does make many of the bad Clan Mechs a bit better. On the other hand, the Mist Lynx is still a terribad mech... and in need of its own separate thread. Regardless... this is a better boost for agility that is well needed, but you need to commit to 5% (both leg omnipods or CT-based quirk) to make it useful. Who would have thought a quirk that only increased the Mist Lynx reverse speed slightly (like 2kph or so) would actually be more useful in disguise?

Ironically, I did the research with the Adder (it has the best reverse speed quirks) when I wanted to optimize.. and found the graph fascinating... and I needed/wanted to manipulate that further.

Go figure right?

Note: As an aside, the future speed loss nerf when losing a Clan XL side torso will inevitably affect all of the above... like what legging does to a mech... where reverse speed quirks can still mitigate the effects (reduction in accel, decel, turn speed is the result of an altered top speed), but moving @ 40kph (sub-Dire Wolf speeds) or 50kph (with the lame speed retention module) will still be a drag.


Constructive comments and feedback appreciated. Let me know if I'm actually talking about a placebo or if that I'm not actually talking out of my arse. Thanks.

AFAIK the speed loss after ST loss was confirmed as off the table....?

I would not hold out hope for that anytime soon...especially seeing as the clans were only winning 53% in the last round of tests, a 20% nerf unilaterally at this point would clearly make the IS even more OP. Especially considering the number of bad pilots with trial mechs and utterly bad builds that were in the queue for the IS.

[Bobzilla]

They really should just have fixed stats, and engine is related to top speed only.
Crappy chasis, tweek the stats, forget quirks.

[Almond Brown]

One would think that "reverse" would be a great buff to Mechs that also have good/quick decel values too, as "reverse" is no good to you until your Mechs comes to a complete stop (X) and then begins the "reverse" run.

So do any of the "reverse" buffed Mechs also have superior decel values?

[Deathlike]

Almond Brown, on 14 April 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

One would think that "reverse" would be a great buff to Mechs that also have good/quick decel values too, as "reverse" is no good to you until your Mechs comes to a complete stop (X) and then begins the "reverse" run.

So do any of the "reverse" buffed Mechs also have superior decel values?

I'm almost seriously considering reporting you. I feel that you haven't even bothered reading the article.

Reversing is not the most important aspect of the mech. It just isn't. It is very useful on its own (the act of using reverse), but not someone pays significant attention to (it's not a quirk you aim to look for in a mech).

The entire quirk stretches out the graph, making the new "reverse speed" the new "speed demarcation", it doesn't actually change the rate of accel or decel... but WHEN the accel-decel changes start at a certain speed.

[Nightmare1]

Deathlike, on 14 April 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

I'm almost seriously considering reporting you. I feel that you haven't even bothered reading the article.

Reversing is not the most important aspect of the mech. It just isn't. It is very useful on its own (the act of using reverse), but not someone pays significant attention to (it's not a quirk you aim to look for in a mech).

The entire quirk stretches out the graph, making the new "reverse speed" the new "speed demarcation", it doesn't actually change the rate of accel or decel... but WHEN the accel-decel changes start at a certain speed.

Accel Decel don't start at certain speeds; they start the moment you press the W or S keys and stop only when you stop pushing them (if you're using throttle decay) or if they max out the speed gauge in either direction.

stjobe, on 12 April 2015 - 09:52 PM, said:

Having engine rating affect so many things, and the absolutely insane Pilot Skill system (not least of which is the double basic upon elite) that makes every 'mech in the game too damn fast and too damn agile.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[stjobe]

Nightmare1, on 14 April 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

You say that like it's a bad thing.

That's because it is a bad thing.

When heavies and assaults get too fast and agile, the only advantage a light has disappears.
When heavies gets too fast and agile, there's no reason to play a medium.

Ever wonder why the light and medium queues only rarely break 30% combined?

There's your reason right there. There's little point in running mediums, because heavies are almost as fast, more heavily armed and armoured. There's little point in running lights, because their sole advantage of speed and agility is effectively neutered by the engine-rating-affects-everything and pilot-skills-improves-agility mechanics.

The only real choice left is whether to go with a heavy or assault.

For a light/medium pilot like me, that's a sad state of affairs.

Edited by stjobe, 14 April 2015 - 10:41 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Deathlike, on 14 April 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

I'm almost seriously considering reporting you. I feel that you haven't even bothered reading the article.

Reversing is not the most important aspect of the mech. It just isn't. It is very useful on its own (the act of using reverse), but not someone pays significant attention to (it's not a quirk you aim to look for in a mech).

The entire quirk stretches out the graph, making the new "reverse speed" the new "speed demarcation", it doesn't actually change the rate of accel or decel... but WHEN the accel-decel changes start at a certain speed.

Your understanding of my post was so limited I can see where you might get confused, but to go full "loco"? Sorry dude. I will dumb it down, just for you, the next time around...

[Nightmare1]

stjobe, on 14 April 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

That's because it is a bad thing.

When heavies and assaults get too fast and agile, the only advantage a light has disappears.
When heavies gets too fast and agile, there's no reason to play a medium.

Ever wonder why the light and medium queues only rarely break 30% combined?

There's your reason right there. There's little point in running mediums, because heavies are almost as fast, more heavily armed and armoured. There's little point in running lights, because their sole advantage of speed and agility is effectively neutered by the engine-rating-affects-everything and pilot-skills-improves-agility mechanics.

The only real choice left is whether to go with a heavy or assault.

For a light/medium pilot like me, that's a sad state of affairs.

I disagree. As a Medium/Light pilot myself, I rather enjoy the game as it is and don't see a problem with fast Mechs. You should remember that the same Pilot Tree you demonize provides equal access to all pilots for all Mechs. Thus, if I Elite a Locust, it receives the same bonuses as if I were to Elite a Dire Wolf. In other words, they both get faster and any advantages one has over the other due to the Pilot Tree are mutually canceled upon both being Elite'd.

The Pilot Tree is designed to give you a sense of progression with your BattleMech as well as to drive PGI's income by requiring pilots to purchase three Mechs. This drives Mech, Mechbay, GXP, Hero Mech, and Champion Mech sales. Griping about it is rather silly at this point.

Frankly, I'd rather have Speed Tweak and the accel/decel quirks for my Locusts and Firestarters as much as I want it for my Hunchbacks and Shadowhawks.

[stjobe]

Nightmare1, on 14 April 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

You should remember that the same Pilot Tree you demonize provides equal access to all pilots for all Mechs. Thus, if I Elite a Locust, it receives the same bonuses as if I were to Elite a Dire Wolf. In other words, they both get faster and any advantages one has over the other due to the Pilot Tree are mutually canceled upon both being Elite'd.

The thing is that lights are supposed to have one advantage over heavier 'mechs - their speed and agility.

With the engine-rating-affects-everything and pilot-skills-improve-agility mechanics, this advantage is effectively nullified. Even a stock Atlas with no skills unlocked can track any target that's outside of 25 meters, no matter how fast that target moves. Customized and elited, you have little chance of staying out of its firing arc unless its pilot is incompetent or otherwise preoccupied.

The reason lights tend to go with max engine is that most players in the PUG queue aren't very good at hitting fast-moving targets. They can track them fine, but they can't hit them. Move to where there's players who do know how to properly lead and hit a fast mover though, and you'll see that if they can track you, they can hit you. And all that vaunted speed and agility counts for little.

If everything was slowed down and less agile, then lights and mediums might get a bit more traction out of being fast and agile.

Nerfing speed and agility across the board is actually an indirect buff for both lights and mediums. And I think they need it.

Edited by stjobe, 14 April 2015 - 11:13 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightmare1, on 14 April 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Accel Decel don't start at certain speeds; they start the moment you press the W or S keys and stop only when you stop pushing them (if you're using throttle decay) or if they max out the speed gauge in either direction.

If you look at the graphs when you mouseover the mechs in the mechlab there is a straight line until a instantaneous change of slope. The point at which the slope changes on the X axis changes on mechs with the reverse speed quirk. So the rate of decay of the accel/decel changes at different points.

stjobe, on 14 April 2015 - 11:13 AM, said:

The thing is that lights are supposed to have one advantage over heavier 'mechs - their speed and agility.

With the engine-rating-affects-everything and pilot-skills-improve-agility mechanics, this advantage is effectively nullified. Even a stock Atlas with no skills unlocked can track any target that's outside of 25 meters, no matter how fast that target moves. Customized and elited, you have little chance of staying out of its firing arc unless its pilot is incompetent or otherwise preoccupied.

The reason lights tend to go with max engine is that most players in the PUG queue aren't very good at hitting fast-moving targets. They can track them fine, but they can't hit them. Move to where there's players who do know how to properly lead and hit a fast mover though, and you'll see that if they can track you, they can hit you. And all that vaunted speed and agility counts for little.

If everything was slowed down and less agile, then lights and mediums might get a bit more traction out of being fast and agile.

Nerfing speed and agility across the board is actually an indirect buff for both lights and mediums. And I think they need it.

When have lights every been able to go toe-to-doe with Dire Wolf's or Atlases? Or any other assaults for that matter.

Looking at all the MechWarrior games, lights are possibly the most competitive in MWO compared to all the rest.

The reason the queue is off so much? People like big guns!

Gyrok, on 14 April 2015 - 05:58 AM, said:

AFAIK the speed loss after ST loss was confirmed as off the table....?

I would not hold out hope for that anytime soon...especially seeing as the clans were only winning 53% in the last round of tests, a 20% nerf unilaterally at this point would clearly make the IS even more OP. Especially considering the number of bad pilots with trial mechs and utterly bad builds that were in the queue for the IS.

Clans win 53% and then say IS even more OP? Really? Not the thread to discuss that but come on..

[Deathlike]

Nightmare1, on 14 April 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

Accel Decel don't start at certain speeds; they start the moment you press the W or S keys and stop only when you stop pushing them (if you're using throttle decay) or if they max out the speed gauge in either direction.

Yes, but I'll clarify my position later in this post, so it's not as clear cut when thinking about it a bit more.

Almond Brown, on 14 April 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

Your understanding of my post was so limited I can see where you might get confused, but to go full "loco"? Sorry dude. I will dumb it down, just for you, the next time around...

TBH, this is honestly why I do get ticked off @ your posts. However, I will apologize for not being clear or correct in my explanation. I spent time doing other stuff and thinking about the graph and what it represents, in a bigger scale... so let me restart.

Adjusting the graph with reverse speed changes how accel/decel functions.

Assuming no accel/decel quirks, the starting point on the graph only depends on the top speed. A 89.1 kph Timberwolf is no different from a 89.1kph Shadowhawk or even a "possible" 89.1kph speed tweaked Cougar (yes, another slow Clan mech, but just humor the idea).

When you increase the reverse speed with quirks, you actually change the rate of decay of the graph, but the endpoint is at the same value @ when you reach that reverse speed max/cap.

Compare two mechs - one that have the reverse speed quirk and one that doesn't. The graph is "flattened". My math/physics may suck, but I believe that over the same amount of time it takes the unquirked mech to reach to the stock reverse speed value of 66%, the quirked mech reaches its new value at the same time. In the case of sub-35 ton lights (Spider, Locust, Commando) that have the quirk, they reach 75% at the same amount of time an unquirked variant would have (Spider-5D, Commando-2D, Commando-TDK). In a sense, accel/decel is affected due to the rate of decay being slower.

This is generally positive, but there's a slight downside... in the case of decel. The special case is actually the old Pretty Baby.. with the awful 30% decel quirk (or whatever that value was).

Koniving's defense of that quirk was interesting, but a little crazy. Hill climbing is less affected by a decel quirk.. in the sense that despite "pebbles of steel", you can actually keep most of your speed while moving up terrain. Of course, the quirk itself is so significant, that it gets the biggest complaints and misunderstanding of that "negative quirk".

The ability of a Locust to stop on a dime is incredible. I think many Light mech pilots appreciate that. What if we didn't use a positive decel quirk, but a slightly negative one? Instead of being able to stop on a dime, you would not be able to slowdown significantly, as speed is life. It's not entirely optimal, but you wouldn't get wrecked so quickly if you stumble upon a pebble of steel. The Locust would LITERALLY stop on a dime on a pebble BECAUSE of the crazy decel quirk.

So why does this matter?

The Reverse speed quirk also affects deceleration in the sense that you will be more sensitive to slowing down by terrain. If you like climbing stuff, a decel increase doesn't help you...

I hope this is more helpful, but sometimes I do feel frustrated in dealing with you.

Edited by Deathlike, 14 April 2015 - 11:39 AM.