22 replies to this topic

[Morsule]

Here is a clue - a great many CW matches are just one team 'Farming' the other team. Its not CW its not a fight its just who farms who.

Having played all the CW maps now I an say one thing. Bad.

Lets consider an actual drop zone. Simple first step. Drop zones should be well designed. Players should be able to choose the drop zone - so if the enemy is crawling all over one of them they can drop at another. There should be more then 3. Defenders should have an underground hanger, able to enter the battleground from a secure location at several points. Why if the orbit around the planet is crawling with enemy spacecraft are the defenders using drop ships at all.

Bases: Orbital cannons are so much target practice to drop a rock on from space. Its an easy math problem for computers today. None of the bases would actually be built and designed that way. Try to make it seem like a logical design that considers space ships and mechs. The entire map design with gates create very predictable game play. Players are forced into the same fight every time. Gates are horrible idea and if you did build one what kind of failed idea was it to build the gate not tall enough to prevent lights from jumping them? Defenders should always have an assault portal if you have gates.


Fix your bugs, Replace the Pilot tree (term used lightly), Develop smart Battle modes and maps for CW. Give players a reason to fight. C-bills and Faction and Achievement's are all very yawn.

So your mechs are all mastered, you have your C-bills.. besides repeating the grind on a new map what is there in MechWarrior Online for the player?

Its horribly frustrating as I really want to like and play this game and find myself avoiding it more often.

[longwang]

I just experienced my first round of CW where this happened. It was a miserable experience. Before, it used to be better to defend to get rewards, but at least it was fair. Whoever fought better. The current set up is just ridiculous!

There is no pointing in defending anything any more, and CW is effectively dead. Solo drops till this is resolved.

[Sandersson Jankins]

I strongly feel that statements like "CW is only farming" are absolute tripe and hyperbole. Either that, or I'm the luckiest pilot in the game while you're the opposite.

The only time I am ever drop-farmed is about 1/4 of the 100% solo mixed-house defenses against clans. And those games probably comprise a conservative 5 percent of total games. That's a pretty decent success rate considering there will nearly always be 3-4 players in those drops that won't communicate and will lose all their mechs first for a total of 200ish damage.

So, you'd like to be able to choose your drop-zone? I agree that this is necessary. You technically CAN do this currently in-game with a competent keyboard-jockey commander. They're able to move the freshly spawning mechs into proper dropzones to avoid a spawn-camp and keep alive mechs in that drop-zone. Obviously not an ideal or even good solution, but many people DON'T know this is possible.

I'd like to suggest that using the "realism" argument isn't very strong. Just because something "wouldn't be that way in BattleTech/RL" does not mean it is obligatory to make it so. Not at all. After all, this can't really be a money-making game with appeal to wide audiences if lore or realism is integrated too strictly. Believe me, I'd rather have a heavily lore-driven game with as many tools to improve community involvement in the game as possible.

Another thing to note, CW population is going to be smaller than previously because CW is due for a large reset/change on the 21st. I'm sure many people are taking a hiatus until that point.

Personally, I would not mark a single CW map as "bad". There are going to be good and bad parts of each map, yes, but I feel that all the CW maps are adequate or acceptable. I want to see them made better, and I want to see more amazing maps made. But to simply say "all CW maps are bad" is, again, hyperbole.

Edited by Sandersson Jankins, 12 April 2015 - 09:44 PM.

[Anjian]

I for one thinks that CW remains poorly designed. It currently violates two of the important precepts of what online PvP games have strived to control in the last ten years.

1. Equitable matchmaking

2. Spawn camping.

Granted, you cannot do anything much about the first. The second however, is an industry acknowledged game killer and games actively have measures to reduce that. In War Thunder Ground Forces for example, a new spawn has a 10 second invincibility window (yes, completely invincible in 10 seconds). Other games make sure spawn areas are inconveniently accessible. Others simply gives no reason for such by not having spawns at all.

To make it allowable so easy in the map like Sulferous Rifts is just bad, bad design. Its just freaking incompetence. Other than the gate bottlenecks, which makes every map predictable, the maps are generally acceptable and has many good areas for combat.

One problem with CW is poor mode design. There is no need for an "invasion" mode and a "counterattack" mode. Why not just combine the two into a single mode?

Lets just call it Attack Mode.

You got Omega with HP as rich as the one used for Counterattack.

Put Omega at the back of the Orbital Cannon via generator, same as Invasion mode.

No more Gen 1, 2, 3. No more turrets. No more opening gates, which I consider another wasteful feature.

Attack conditions is to destroy Omega and gain a higher kill count than the defending team. In other words, plays like Counterattack. Defender defends Omega for 30 minutes, and if Omega is destroyed, must retain a higher kill count than the Attacker team. If the number of kills are even, if Omega is preserved, the win goes to the defending team. If Omega is destroyed, the win goes to the Attackers.

Its that simple. That resolves any light zerg or zerg tactic thing. Its makes it simple for the algo to allocate attack and defensive turns for the attackers and defenders.

[Parnage Winters]

They are objectively mediocre. The maps wouldn't be half bad but a good section of the map is never used or rarely used except as a path to gates. That's not really good design. Neither is having defenders sit behind a gate. There isn't even a need to scout because people know which gate folks are going to and even if they don't they are given more then enough time to react. It's dull, it's shallow, it's not very fun to play. Hence people not playing it.

People play if they are having fun, CW is not fun, so people are not playing. Your que times reflect this, and deep down you know that if CW was fun more people would play it. The issues have been mentioned time and time again from the lack of interesting goals to major sections of the map going unused to the idea that a base wins or loses over the loss of one cannon. Nothing else you want to blow up in a base? Not the fuel storage, not the mechbays or aerospace hangers just the gun?

CW isn't bad it's just not really fun. It's sad that something billed as the core feature is still in "beta" and quite frankly feels far less then that.

[Peter2k]

Give dropships 10 PPC's and let them stay a bit longer
Ahh MechCommander, having PPC and Gaus turrets; fun

Just don't let them target stuff at long and medium ranges

Instead of blowing more things up why not make some things to be captured
That earn C-Bills in great enough numbers to be valuable

I think that in the lore blowing things up the nuclear way would be possible, but not desirable, like stuff that can't be replaced
Resources wasted and so on



PGI is learning with mapmaking, I'm content with CW maps at the moment, or rather the quality
I'd rather have the old 8vs8 maps be expanded and balanced for 12
as far as balancing goes in MWO


If CW is no fun for anyone, and there is no one playing, why do some of us find matches at reasonable times
Gotta mind prime time and dinner times and so on
Bet most MechWarriors have a life too
N jobs n such things



Ultimately
Why moan, again... , sigh
in General section

If someone has a good idea for a map maybe draw a nice set on a piece of paper, scan it in and present it to Alexander, or Russ or such
copy one from a Mech game you find memorable (well from a birds view, not as in actually building a map)
Or any good idea really

Now if there would be something like a subsection that could be used like this
You know called like:
Idea suggestions
Or
Feature ideas

No wait, it should be named

FEATURE SUGGESTIONS

epic

[Widowmaker1981]

The spawn camping is a definite problem, especially on sulfur when the defending team tries to defend deep in the base to try to use their turrets - (when defending Sulfur you need to defend alpha gate, up front at first falling back slowly around that first hill. If you allow attackers to push inside alpha unopposed you have already lost the game). A secure underground bunker for defender spawns seems like the best option, but would require a lot of re-design..

Hellbore is the best map, followed by Cybertron (grim portico) - while all of the maps allow attacker spawn camping a bit too easily at least those two dont almost force it on the attackers like Sulphur does.

If the attackers get spawn camped then.. they were getting obliterated anyway and the defenders are just ending the pain faster. no problems there.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

all the maps / planet but have no strategic or tactical impact on the CW ... to conquer, no resources, no plans, Inforamtionen, components'.
no attacks on small bases in order to prevent supply of ammunition, no Inforamtionsraids to ever first to attack the bases on the home planet (in which quadrant are those that ??)
No attacks on spaceports etc to create bridgeheads

Please PGI, look at modern military bases (or Bases in ARMA or MWLL)

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 13 April 2015 - 02:37 AM.

[oldradagast]

Anjian, on 12 April 2015 - 10:09 PM, said:

I for one thinks that CW remains poorly designed. It currently violates two of the important precepts of what online PvP games have strived to control in the last ten years.

1. Equitable matchmaking

2. Spawn camping.

Granted, you cannot do anything much about the first.

While there is no way to guarantee perfect matchmaking, the current "anything goes" CW system is an utter joke and a total failure. We're to believe that a game mode where well-practiced 12-man teams in fully leveled mech groups are dropped against piles of random PUG's, trial mechs, and small casual groups is somehow "fun" and also "requires a higher level of skill." It's idiotic and makes about as much sense as having Sunday football games where some weeks a pro NFL team plays against a few dozen peopled picked from the stands. Because that also requires the same amount of "skill" for the team to win and is just as "fun" for everyone involved.

Any sane person can see why being stomped isn't fun, but a good number of people also grow quickly bored doing the stomping. We've all had dull games even in the public queue where the match was so lop-sided that you spent the whole match following the murderball around, looking for something to shoot before all the hapless targets were dead. Matchmaking is never perfect, but that's at least rare in the Public queue; not so in CW, where there's not even an attempt at matchmaking.

Unfortunately, there's a vocal minority that wants their free wins over "stupid PUG's," and they'll keep whining to keep CW the way it is. So, in the end, nothing will change. We'll get more maps, maybe some more team size options, and so on, but until they stop pitting pros against randoms, the game experience will often be one-sided, dull, and simply idiotic.

Edited by oldradagast, 13 April 2015 - 03:00 AM.

[Shredhead]

oldradagast, on 13 April 2015 - 02:59 AM, said:

While there is no way to guarantee perfect matchmaking, the current "anything goes" CW system is an utter joke and a total failure. We're to believe that a game mode where well-practiced 12-man teams in fully leveled mech groups are dropped against piles of random PUG's, trial mechs, and small casual groups is somehow "fun" and also "requires a higher level of skill." It's idiotic and makes about as much sense as having Sunday football games where some weeks a pro NFL team plays against a few dozen peopled picked from the stands. Because that also requires the same amount of "skill" for the team to win and is just as "fun" for everyone involved.

Any sane person can see why being stomped isn't fun, but a good number of people also grow quickly bored doing the stomping. We've all had dull games even in the public queue where the match was so lop-sided that you spent the whole match following the murderball around, looking for something to shoot before all the hapless targets were dead. Matchmaking is never perfect, but that's at least rare in the Public queue; not so in CW, where there's not even an attempt at matchmaking.

Unfortunately, there's a vocal minority that wants their free wins over "stupid PUG's," and they'll keep whining to keep CW the way it is. So, in the end, nothing will change. We'll get more maps, maybe some more team size options, and so on, but until they stop pitting pros against randoms, the game experience will often be one-sided, dull, and simply idiotic.

Unless you can magically bring in tens of thousands of players, not much can be done about it. Although I would like them to at least try and give the matchmaker a group vs group bias, so if there's let's say 3x12 men attacking, and one of them is a 12 man premade, the matchmaker tries to pit them against the strongest defenders first.

On the other hand I will never understand people unwilling to change their own behaviour to adapt to the situation. Why do they not visit faction or public TS servers to play with other like minded players? Why do they not optimize their mechs, and instead insist on bringing garbage builds in which they can't exceed 200 damage over 4 mechs?

I'm always wondering, what do these people do when they have to face a strong boss in a single player game? Throw a temper tantrum and go bitchin and raging on that game's forum?

[Dhatman]

Shredhead, on 13 April 2015 - 03:21 AM, said:

Unless you can magically bring in tens of thousands of players, not much can be done about it.

Maby only maby remove the advantage that longer player get?
2-3mil for modules are insane,
you need 3 same mechs to get the max speed ect.

Every friend that i showed that game are not willing to stay because of that.

The devs have only luck that are players are here that willing to spend 300$+ and let the game running.

[Shredhead]

Dhatman, on 13 April 2015 - 04:29 AM, said:

Maby only maby remove the advantage that longer player get?
2-3mil for modules are insane,

2-3 million for a module is quite low. If I play CW for an evening, I easily make 4+ million in 3-4 hours. I think the distinction between CW and regular queue should be fleshed out better. Earnings in pub queue have to go up. Cadet bonus has to be extended so a player can get at least two fully fitted mechs out of it, reaching a full deck of 4 within a month of regular, modest playing. And then trial mechs should get locked out from CW. That's how end game content should be presented.
So basically; new players earn most CBills, CW players second most, regular queue players earn more than today, but slightly less than in CW.

Quote

you need 3 same mechs to get the max speed ect.

Cheapest and best way to go there is to use mediums and heavies, they can be very efficient with standard engines. They also don't need the speed tweak that badly. Stay away from light mechs and assaults.

Quote

Every friend that i showed that game are not willing to stay because of that.

I wonder what they'd say to games like WoT and WT? However, progress in many games is grind. If they don't like that, there's not much to be done about it.

Quote

The devs have only luck that are players are here that willing to spend 300$+ and let the game running.

Yes. That and shaking off IGP is what saved this game. For now.

Edited by Shredhead, 13 April 2015 - 05:49 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Minimally Viable Product.

[Joseph Mallan]

QuantumButler, on 13 April 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

Minimally Viable Product.

Don't you think we've moved to a Moderately Viable Product recently?

Widowmaker1981, on 13 April 2015 - 01:10 AM, said:

Hellbore is the best map, followed by Cybertron (grim portico)

I didn't see the similarity till you just posted this!

Now I won't be able to not see it!

Thanks

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 April 2015 - 06:36 AM.

[Josef Koba]

I want to like CW, and when I drop, I do see fleeting moments of enjoyment. But it's been clear that CW was not designed for people like me, that is people who drop solo or in a group of two. I haven't the time to invest in joining a group and, frankly, I'm not terribly social. If I had five friends who also liked playing, I'd do it that way but no one I've ever asked can get into it. Even those who were hard core BT fans. It just isn't fun for them to spend a couple months getting stomped until they learn it. But I digress. Actually, dropping with my lance mate isn't all that fun anymore either. While we are usually in the top five or ten percent in terms of performance in a match (counting both teams), we lose far more often than we win. Usually we lose 12-4 or worse. It just isn't fun. Two man groups can't really be competitive in the group queue since they're usually just filler for ten mans or, worse, one of several small groups who inevitably face 12 man drops all on comms and who play together all the time.

I should point out that I haven't yet tried the integrated comms, so perhaps that alleviates the above issues. But I've only had maybe ten drops since that was put in place. And they were all solo.

TL;DR: I love the idea of CW but can't seem to find any enjoyment in it.

[Romeo Deluxe]

You will never get rid of spawn camping in game where multiple spawns are allowed. You don't see this in public queue because there is only the one initial spawn at the beginning of the match.

Please read page 2 for suggestions on how to balance the legitimate tactic of spawn camping:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4326968

Some more detailed explanation on spawn camping in games:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4343935

[Romeo Deluxe]

Shredhead, on 13 April 2015 - 05:49 AM, said:

2-3 million for a module is quite low. If I play CW for an evening, I easily make 4+ million in 3-4 hours. I think the distinction between CW and regular queue should be fleshed out better. Earnings in pub queue have to go up. Cadet bonus has to be extended so a player can get at least two fully fitted mechs out of it, reaching a full deck of 4 within a month of regular, modest playing. And then trial mechs should get locked out from CW. That's how end game content should be presented.
So basically; new players earn most CBills, CW players second most, regular queue players earn more than today, but slightly less than in CW.

Cheapest and best way to go there is to use mediums and heavies, they can be very efficient with standard engines. They also don't need the speed tweak that badly. Stay away from light mechs and assaults.

I wonder what they'd say to games like WoT and WT? However, progress in many games is grind. If they don't like that, there's not much to be done about it.

Yes. That and shaking off IGP is what saved this game. For now.

What is this nonesense about "end game"? In the very tiny game of MWO? There is the solo queue and CW. These 2 queues lead to a pvp match. There is no economy, there is pve, there isn't even an actual tutorial in the game. MWO is a tiny game with a small playerbase and your suggestion is to segregate and make the game even smaller.

Edited by Romeo Deluxe, 13 April 2015 - 07:00 AM.

[RG Notch]

QuantumButler, on 13 April 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

Minimally Viable Product.

PGI has been putting the Minimal in MVP since the start and the same old crew of defenders will show up to excuse it with small team, Cry Tek or what ever the Scapegoat of the Moth is. It's probably the players fault somehow in their minds. Lower your standards enough and PGI is succeeding.

[Shredhead]

Romeo Deluxe, on 13 April 2015 - 07:00 AM, said:

What is this nonesense about "end game"? In the very tiny game of MWO? There is the solo queue and CW. These 2 queues lead to a pvp match. There is no economy, there is pve, there isn't even an actual tutorial in the game. MWO is a tiny game with a small playerbase and your suggestion is to segregate and make the game even smaller.

I what?
First off, CW and modules are the end game content according to Russ, the deep end.
It's like that in many multiplayer games. Clan/guild/whatever wars are their end game content. In all of these games you have to progress through a certain amount of time/levels/whatever before you get access to it. Locking out trial mechs keeps newbies in the Elo controlled public queue, where they can earn their first mechs and gather some experience before being thrown in the shark tank.
These very newbies without experience and decent mechs are also an impediment to the gameplay experience in CW overall, because they drag down their team unless supervised by veteran players.

QuantumButler, on 13 April 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

Minimally Viable Product.

RG Notch, on 13 April 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

PGI has been putting the Minimal in MVP since the start and the same old crew of defenders will show up to excuse it with small team, Cry Tek or what ever the Scapegoat of the Moth is. It's probably the players fault somehow in their minds. Lower your standards enough and PGI is succeeding.

I will never understand why you [redacted] keep coming back to these forums to scold those who enjoy this game. [redacted]

[QuantumButler]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 April 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

Don't you think we've moved to a Moderately Viable Product recently?

Naw, but there are multiple levels of minimally viable.

MWO is MV+ right now.