43 replies to this topic

[Nightmare1]

Hello all! As most folks know, Jump Jets (JJs) have been a problem-plagued feature in this game for a while. For anyone who hasn't been around long enough to know their history, here is a quick rundown:

1) Jump Jets originally provided wonderful agility and jump speeds, making their users feel very maneuverable. It was a lot of fun just to go romping around the Testing Grounds with them.

2) A meta developed focused on using JJs to "poptart" up and down from behind cover, snapping off shots from Gauss, PPCs, and AC/5s and 2s. This meta was very powerful when employed by a skilled Unit against Pugs

3) PGI nerfed JJs hard to break this meta and they haven't been particularly useful since. They went from being a combat asset to being a combat detriment with a change in primary role from fighting to traveling around the map. This makes them relatively undesirable in larger chassis because of the severe tonnage requirements that must be traded for very little or no gain.

4) The issue has divided many, with some (such as myself) calling for a return to our old JJs. Others call for buffs not quite that strong, and still others call for more nerfs (we call the latter people type trolls).

So, with that in mind, I'm making a request that JJs be restored to their original functionality, but with their current heat nerf maintained. I believe that now is a great time to do it and that it will not break the game for the following reasons:

1) Gauss has been nerfed drastically, requiring a charge-up. This makes it a hard weapon to use in jump-sniping.

2) Ballistics have had both their projectile velocity and their range nerfed substantially. While technically a weapon that pilots could still use in poptarting, such pilots would need to get quite close to allow their ballistics to fire with enough accuracy to be worthwhile. Getting so close will somewhat defeat the purpose of poptarting, which was to engage Mechs at range and from cover to prevent them from closing with you.

3) PPCs and ERPPCs also had their velocities nerfed. For the same reasons in bullet 2), they are no longer a powerful poptarting weapon.

4) Maintaining the current heat nerf (JJs interrupt Mech cooldown and exacerbate heat problems) prevents the JJs from being too powerful by penalizing hot Mechs. In other words, PPC/ERPPC jump sniping will be very difficult to accomplish while laser vomit brawling will need to be done carefully to prevent overheating. The heat nerf requires more skill in how pilots employ their JJs.

5) The current meta is focused on laser vomit, which is not favorable to poptarting of JJ brawling due to the weapon's firing duration and heat generation.

6) More powerful JJs would go a long way towards buffing the Summoner and Nova chassis, which are currently penalized rather than enhanced by their locked JJs. It would also bring back the Victor to some extent.

7) JJs would breathe more variability into the game and make it a lot more fun.

8) Premades and Pugs have been separated in the normal queues, fixing one of the biggest problems originally caused by JJs; Premade Poptarting. Note: I am ignoring CW at the moment because it's own issues are such that JJs will not impact it. Both Clans and IS will benefit equally from this buff. Premade versus Pug may still be an issue, but JJs will hardly cause more of a problem in CW since the coordinated requirements of it are already so daunting. Put another way, JJ buffs in CW will have a negligible impact on CW balance compared to other problems CW already has in it.

I do not recommend that this change simply be made and then let lie. Instead, I recommend that a single week be chosen for live testing, much as the Ghost Heat changes were tested for the AC/2s and IS LLs. If the community finds the changes pleasing, then PGI can retain them. If the JJs prove too powerful, then PGI can remove them and use the resulting information to craft a better fix for JJs.

The bottomline is that JJs need to be buffed. Since PGI cannot decouple them from engine turn rates, a new fix must be obtained. Given the multitude of changes made to gameplay through weapon nerfs, Mech quirking, and the implementation of VOIP and separated group/Pug drops in the normal queue, I think it is safe to assume that restored JJs will not break the game. Thus, I suggest a temporary test at the previously mentioned JJ parameters to determine whether or not such a fix for JJs is viable.

TL; DR: Read it. There aren't any shortcuts here. Digest it and then think before you respond. If you respond, provide something of substance rather than something meager such as "I don't like it," or something trollish like, "JJs OP, nerf them."

Thank you for your time.

Edit: An added bonus is that buffing JJs back would help the IS slightly more than the Clans, providing the IS with a slight bonus in the area of skirmishing/poptarting. This would be an indirect way of balancing the IS and Clans without resorting to Clan nerfs.

Edited by Nightmare1, 22 April 2015 - 11:14 AM.

[Nightmare1]

In light of the last Townhall meeting and Russ's comments on JJs, I thought it seemed to be an appropriate time to suggest this again. Please PGI, take this into consideration! Even if the weekend test proves that the style of JJs I proposed above is ineffective, it still helps in the long run by giving you information that is more actionable now compared to the old information you are relying on from back when JJs behaved as above.

[Idealsuspect]

Sorry but i am not ok with that...

Even i loved olds JJs it make the gap bigger between new players( with bad loadouts ) and good players.
I should be okay with this fi Matchmaker didn't get lots of balancing team issues.

And more of that only JJs variants will be used, everybody will jump, people with lag shields will not die anymore.
NO TY...

PS: Using gauss while jumping isn't that hard ... Just need to learn good timing.

[Nightmare1]

Restoring JJs does nothing to the gap between good players and new players; both have access to JJs. In fact, since Trial Mechs can't be modified, it may actually help new players by giving the Trial Mechs with JJs more functionality rather than keeping the JJs as dead weight.

JJs won't make or break a match, even if restored. Pilot quality is what makes or breaks matches.

I highly doubt that the only variants we will see will be JJ enabled types. Take myself as an example. During the height of the old JJ usage, I ran Hunchbacks almost exclusively (it was like playing Whack-a-mole and was a lot of fun!). As someone often fighting JJ'ers, I didn't find them overpowered then and wish I had the same opportunity to use JJs as they were. I got a Shadowhawk right at the end of the JJ era, so I know what I missed out on and wish it was back. It was add a lot more versatility to this game. Combined with substantial JJ damage and knock-down, it could really improve gameplay and bring in classic, canonical things like the Highlander Burial.

You definitely need good timing, which is why you won't see widespread Gauss sniping.

Overall, this is a suggestion to test the old JJs in light of current mechanics; not to make an absolute decision to bring back the old style forever. I'm simply asking PGI to bring them back for a single week or weekend to give them a second chance and see how they perform now in light of the many, many changes that have occurred since they were nerfed through the turf.

[Phobic Wraith]

I happen to agree with this proposal. I think that the "no height or speed whatsoever" approach was a bit heavy handed. I didn't particularly care for poptarting as a tactic, I found it silly as a concept. The current gameplay is better, but it shouldn't have come at the cost of JJ maneuverability. I think we should test any and all solutions to diversifying gameplay. Good idea.

[luigi256]

Does PGI still have their test servers? I would love for them to try this out on their test server to get info and see how stronger jump jets will affect the meta. I do miss them as well but am wary of how it will affect the main player base if it went on the servers. People will wonder what is happening and why jump jets make you jump.

So PGI could try this out on their test server and those of us who want to participate in the jump jet test can do so and provide feedback. It's been a while since anyone posted anything in that public test forum so this would be a good reason to do it I think.

[luigi256]

Also if jump sniping happens to be a thing still make the jump jets generate more heat. It will stop the PPC jump sniping at least and make it so that you use them to get to where you want to go/escape and then force you to cool off.

Ballistics might still be a problem that needs addressing should people switch to only ballistic jump sniping which generates much less heat.

[Idealsuspect]

Nightmare1, on 22 April 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

Restoring JJs does nothing to the gap between good players and new players; both have access to JJs. In fact, since Trial Mechs can't be modified, it may actually help new players by giving the Trial Mechs with JJs more functionality rather than keeping the JJs as dead weight.

JJs won't make or break a match, even if restored. Pilot quality is what makes or breaks matches.

If you improve JJs , also good players who know use it at best will be far better than bad players ( this game is full of bad players ) who will stay on ground or use JJs bad way ( no jump sniping, dogding and shooting while jump ). Also you give me right.

And like i said improve JJs will improve lags shields on players who already have this.

If MM or average players skills ( effect/cause symptoms ) didnt suck well i will be ok with you.... but this game can't handle with that.
Ok team with more poparts players than other one will win specially easy on PUGs queue but in groups queue to.
Well IMHO JJs are like they have to be in a BT game.

Edited by Idealsuspect, 22 April 2015 - 01:58 PM.

[Vegalas]

These are interesting points you are bringing out but I don't JJ's should go back where they were previously in the beta like I don't like the idea of having fall damage removed almost completely. However I think that the JJ's indeed need a buff. This could come from various sources. New features could be added like a revamped skill tree system with the addition of JJ-related skills. There could be flight movement boosting perks on some mechs too. Then there are the JJ's made for manouvering in the are but I don't really recall their name from the BT lore. In other words there are loads of different options but choosing one or two doesn't really change much. The whole game needs to be spiced up in some way. I have already gotten tired with PGI constantly bringing new mech to the game without concetrating on the other features aswell. But that's just how things are with MWO at the moment.

Edited by Vegalas, 22 April 2015 - 01:20 PM.

[Tarogato]

I completely agree with the OP and I think it would be a great idea to implement the proposal on the test server and see how the metas fair against one another.

Vegalas, on 22 April 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

These are interesting points you are bringing out but I don't JJ's should go back where they were previously in the beta like I don't like the idea of having fall damage removed almost completely.

The OP isn't asking for JJs to be reverted back to their former glorly - he's simply asking for them to be buffed with the current downsides in place. If JJs had most of their old thrust back, but retained the heat nerfs, the screenshake nerfs, the projectile velocity nerfs, ... the list goes on... I think things would be mostly fine. You'd only have to tune the global JJ thrust up to the point where it's better but not to the point where it's "jumpsniping only OP meta tactic"

Quote

However I think that the JJ's indeed need a buff. This could come from various sources. New features could be added like a revamped skill tree system with the addition of JJ-related skills. There could be flight movement boosting perks on some mechs too. Then there are the JJ's made for manouvering in the are but I don't really recall their name from the BT lore. In other words there are loads of different options but choosing one or two doesn't really change much. The whole game needs to be spiced up in some way. I have already gotten tired with PGI constantly bringing new mech to the game without concetrating on the other features aswell. But that's just how things are with MWO at the moment.

The problem with this is... if there is a best option in the skill tree, everybody will take it instead of the alternative and it all amounts to nothing but a mindless buff to the skill (jumpjets) in question.

[Nightmare1]

I wasn't as clear as I could have been in my OP. What Tarogato says is on target; I am advocating for original JJs in the sense of their thrust mechanics and behavior. The nerfs applied to heat, fall damage, and screen shake would remain. I should have been more explicit in that.

Basically, I'm just asking PGI to test the old JJ thrust and speed with the current gameplay nerfs. If all goes well, then we are in business. If the public at large still hates it, then we go back to the drawing board with new information and a better position from which to craft an alternative solution.

[ShaneoftheDead]

Gauss can still be used to Pop-Tart. I could learn to time the charge-up so that it is ready after the jump peaks to lose the shake but close to the top to get the best angle. Those with Macros could coordinate it with firing other weapons.

Still, bringing back the old jump heights could work provided they at least keep the heat and add another penalty, like slowing the recharge rate and/or adding a little screen shake on the way down.

[Kiernan JHEREG Piper]

How about the ability to simply REMOVE the frackin' Jumpjets completely??

Double-pretty-please??

Thanks,

-Scott 'Jhereg'

[Valar13]

Kiernan JHEREG Piper, on 22 April 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

How about the ability to simply REMOVE the frackin' Jumpjets completely??

Double-pretty-please??

Thanks,

-Scott 'Jhereg'

Having trouble hitting those moving targets, eh?

[Astarot]

If you restore original jump jets, then increase fall damage. I want to see stupid pilots break their legs! >

[ShinVector]

Honestly I think they are at an OK spot right now.
Buffing them would bad idea...

People including myself still 'abusing' JJs when ever possible to avoid damage.
The problem with JJs is making them TOO good. Puts non-JJ mechs at a huge disadvantage.

I am still probably ok with some mechs getting quirks to boost JJs if needed.

Talking about JJs... I recently saw a Stinking Urbanmech somehow reach the top of the tallest towers in Frozen City on the city side.
Kinda wondering how he did since the last time I did it myself was when JJs were at the original state.
Very strange...

Astarot, on 22 April 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

If you restore original jump jets, then increase fall damage. I want to see stupid pilots break their legs! >

I would say screw you. A lot of us already pissed with more often than not the crappy movement code + fall damage makes us take MAX FALL damage, when for some reason our mechs get momentarily stuck in slopes or what not....
If fact... This goes back to the JJs topic... It is less likely for JJs mech to hit by the stuck in slope issue vs. say fast non-JJ light like the Commando.

Edited by ShinVector, 22 April 2015 - 04:52 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Kiernan JHEREG Piper, on 22 April 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

How about the ability to simply REMOVE the frackin' Jumpjets completely??

Double-pretty-please??

Thanks,

-Scott 'Jhereg'

MechWarrior without JJs simply wouldn't be MechWarrior

No trolls please.

[Nightmare1]

ShinVector, on 22 April 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

Honestly I think they are at an OK spot right now.
Buffing them would bad idea...

People including myself still 'abusing' JJs when ever possible to avoid damage.
The problem with JJs is making them TOO good. Puts non-JJ mechs at a huge disadvantage.

I am still probably ok with some mechs getting quirks to boost JJs if needed.

Talking about JJs... I recently saw a Stinking Urbanmech somehow reach the top of the tallest towers in Frozen City on the city side.
Kinda wondering how he did since the last time I did it myself was when JJs were at the original state.
Very strange...

There really isn't any reason to equip JJs on anything larger than a Medium Mech. For Lights and Mediums, the benefits in battle are negligible; they are really only good for maneuvering around the map. Frankly, I want to see JJs like what are depicted in the books; actionable tech that can be used offensively as well as defensively. Right now all we have are four shades of "bleah."

Also, just to remind everyone, this isn't a "Bring them back forever thread." It's strictly to bring PGI's attention to the fact that JJs need help and that this is a potentially viable solution. The theme of the thread is not a complete fix, but rather a temporary testing period to see if the fix is actually feasible, with the feasibility decided by the community at large. We really won't know until such a test takes place anyways, since all we have are memories of a time when everything was pre-Nerf.

Ghost Heat was added to AC/2s and LLs because they too were once considered too powerful. Now that the state of MWO has changed dramatically since that time, PGI saw fit to test a Ghost Heat removal/adjustment on them. The public tested it and found it good, so the changes stayed. That's all I'm asking for JJs here; give them a second chance, with the nerfs previously described (fall damage, heat, screen shake, etc), and let the public judge whether or not the fix is a good one.

[Astarot]

ShinVector, on 22 April 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

I would say screw you. A lot of us already pissed with more often than not the crappy movement code + fall damage makes us take MAX FALL damage, when for some reason our mechs get momentarily stuck in slopes or what not....
If fact... This goes back to the JJs topic... It is less likely for JJs mech to hit by the stuck in slope issue vs. say fast non-JJ light like the Commando.

I'm sorry, I ask for a first date before any random screwing happens. Moving on, it not the fall damage fault for poor netcoding. Honestly, if jumpjets were restored, a massive downside must be added because people will simply abuse the JJ like they do now, and max out their height and take, to be frank, very little penalty for free falling back to the ground. Infact, not that long ago, I saw a light mech with both legs deep red jump jetting around like crazy, and free falling back to the ground and took very little damage.

[Nightmare1]

Astarot, on 22 April 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

I'm sorry, I ask for a first date before any random screwing happens. Moving on, it not the fall damage fault for poor netcoding. Honestly, if jumpjets were restored, a massive downside must be added because people will simply abuse the JJ like they do now, and max out their height and take, to be frank, very little penalty for free falling back to the ground. Infact, not that long ago, I saw a light mech with both legs deep red jump jetting around like crazy, and free falling back to the ground and took very little damage.

I would say that you must drink when playing. Whenever I use JJs, I have to be extremely careful not to tear my legs up. They're also no way to "abuse" them; they're useless on Heavies and Assaults and really only good for maneuvering for Mediums and Lights.

Buffing them would actually make them worth taking and would help with Hill Climb and such. It would also help JJ-capable Assaults step out of that stupid trickle of a river on Canyon Network.