30 replies to this topic

[Avengar]

what is your opinion on doubling the armor value on mechs?
I like the idea I think it would hurt the effectiveness of Alpha Strikes and make longer lasting games

[FupDup]

Longer lasting games: Yup
Reduce alpha strike effectiveness: Nope

I could understand FF armor and STD internals being toughened up a bit so they could somewhat compete against Endo, but really that's it.

[Mcgral18]

It's already been doubled. The thing is...most weapons fire at 3x+ times their TT values, making that increase less effective.

Some also fire at 18x TT values....Gotta love those AC90s.



More armour won't really change much. More internal structure I could get behind, making critical hits actually mean something rather than : "Oh, I have no armour left, I'm dead in one hit anyways."

[Deathlike]

I like how we keep overscaling armor values to the point where the Light vs Assault discrepancies increase while the Awesome and Mist Lynx's arm is the forefront of poor scaling and die horribly.

Edited by Deathlike, 13 April 2015 - 02:44 PM.

[Xetelian]

If they raised armor by a ~1/3rd to double what we currently have and I'd be happy.

I like a longer TTK, I also like matches that last longer than 3-5 minutes.

[Khobai]

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I could understand FF armor and STD internals being toughened up a bit so they could somewhat compete against Endo, but really that's it.

IS FF definitely needs a 10%-15% damage reduction buff. But Clan FF is fine and doesnt need any buffs.

However, I would like to see Light Fusion Engines added first before buffing STD structure. Because LFEs would make standard structure much better by giving you extra tonnage to spend on the critslots you save by not taking endo. If LFEs dont fix the problem, then maybe we can look at buffing STD structure.

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If they raised armor by a ~1/3rd to double what we currently have and I'd be happy.

I like a longer TTK, I also like matches that last longer than 3-5 minutes.

Raising armor would make spread weapons worse and pinpoint weapons better. You might raise TTK slightly but you would also shift the meta even more in favor of pinpoint weapons. I would much rather see TTK increased by reducing the effectiveness of pinpoint weapons.

We need to get arm and leg armor to start absorbing more hits and the way to do that is make damage spread out more. IS ACs, PPCs, and Gauss all need splash damage/burst damage treatment so they spread their damage over a wider area. Certain laser weapons could use longer beam durations too.

In some cases we just need quirk adjustments rather than actual weapon adjustments. The Staker 4N, for example, obviously needs some quirk changes; stalkers are supposed to carry a mix of LRM/SRM/Laser. Theyre not supposed to be large laser boats. Quirks should reward you for running stock loadouts not reward you for running meta loadouts.

Another thing that would help are gamemode/map updates designed to discourage 12v12 deathballing. If the gamemodes/maps forced teams to split up into two smaller groups that would help increase TTK back to reasonable levels again.

Edited by Khobai, 13 April 2015 - 05:44 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 13 April 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

IS FF definitely needs a 10%-15% damage reduction buff. Clan FF however is fine and doesnt need any buffs.

I would like to see Light Fusion Engines added first before buffing STD structure. Because LFEs would make standard structure better.

Clan FF is still less effective than Clan Endo. Giving it less of a buff than IS FF would be fair, but that doesn't mean it's in an ideal state as it is.

I don't see how Luffies would improve STD internals, you can just use Endo with them as usual...

[Burktross]

did someone necro a post from 2012?

[Khobai]

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I don't see how Luffies would improve STD internals, you can just use Endo with them as usual...

Because the main problem with STD is that you often have 14 extra crit slots but no leftover tonnage to use those crit slots. Hence you take endo to trade those surplus crit slots for tonnage.

However, LFE gives you a significant amount of extra tonnage. Now you have the extra tonnage to utilize those 14 extra crit slots. So if course LFE makes STD tonnage better. I dont really know what youre talking about.

And not all mechs will use both LFE and Endo. Assault mechs for the most part wont use endo because the crit slots are more valuable to them than the extra tonnage. Most assault mechs will just use LFE. And most light mechs arnt going to want to take LFE because theyll lose tonnage compared to if they just took XL. So what youre saying about mechs taking both simply isnt true.

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Clan FF is still less effective than Clan Endo. Giving it less of a buff than IS FF would be fair, but that doesn't mean it's in an ideal state as it is.

Thats debateable since you cant choose whether or not you take Clan FF. Theres no conscious decision making or tradeoffs involved with Clan FF since its a locked item. Thats why I dont think Clan FF should be buffed. Rather each clan mech should be looked at individually to determine what tier it belongs to and what quirks it should get.

Edited by Khobai, 13 April 2015 - 06:14 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Mcgral18, on 13 April 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

It's already been doubled. The thing is...most weapons fire at 3x+ times their TT values, making that increase less effective.

Some also fire at 18x TT values....Gotta love those AC90s.



More armour won't really change much. More internal structure I could get behind, making critical hits actually mean something rather than : "Oh, I have no armour left, I'm dead in one hit anyways."

I like to think of it as tripled damage rate, because you could have an AC/20 that fires two rounds every second for 10 seconds. That's almost where the current AC/2 sits on certain 'Mechs like the BJ-1DC...

...holy crap, I have two AC/20s on my Blackjack!

[Khobai]

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It's already been doubled. The thing is...most weapons fire at 3x+ times their TT values, making that increase less effective.

x3 firing rate has little to do with it because time is entirely relative. Whether the firing rate is x1 or x3 its still going to take the same number of shots to destroy a mech. Youre still tanking the same amount of damage before you die either way. Having 12 mechs focus firing a single mech is way more of a problem than having x3 firing rate.

But the biggest problem is the fact you can aim for specific locations.

In tabletop damage is spread out randomly via hit tables. Plus arms and legs absorb roughly 50% of all damage. In MWO they dont absorb anywhere close to that. The fact you can aim for someone's center or side torso is amplifying damage anywhere from 5-7 times greater than tabletop. Even with doubled armor thats still 2-3 times more damage than we should be taking.

The solution IMO is to implement splash damage/burst fire for all ACs, PPCs, and Gauss. Make damage spread out more evenly and make arm and leg armor absorb a greater percentage of damage. Another solution would be to revise gamemodes/maps to force teams to split up into smaller groups instead of deathballing.

Edited by Khobai, 13 April 2015 - 06:28 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Mcgral18, on 13 April 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

It's already been doubled. The thing is...most weapons fire at 3x+ times their TT values, making that increase less effective.

Some also fire at 18x TT values....Gotta love those AC90s.

I'm assuming you're referring to the AC/2, which even at 18x fire-rate is still worthless? (well, tbh it was bad in TT to begin with).

That said, the game would have been much better if they'd gone with TT dmg value/10sec period, rather than per shot. Firing 1 per 10sec is pretty boring in a FPS-esque game, so the fire rate did need to go up.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 13 April 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

Because the main problem with STD is that you often have 14 extra crit slots but no leftover tonnage to use those crit slots. Hence you take endo to trade those surplus crit slots for tonnage.

However, LFE gives you a significant amount of extra tonnage. Now you have the extra tonnage to utilize those 14 extra crit slots. So if course LFE makes STD tonnage better. I dont really know what youre talking about.

And not all mechs will use both LFE and Endo. Assault mechs for the most part wont use endo because the crit slots are more valuable to them than the extra tonnage. Most assault mechs will just use LFE. And most light mechs arnt going to want to take LFE because theyll lose tonnage compared to if they just took XL. So what youre saying about mechs taking both simply isnt true.

Most IS mechs can easily fit XL + Endo (hitboxes permitting), in spite of IS XL being even lighter than the Luffie and slightly bulkier. Only high-end assaults would use STD internals, sort of like how they're the only ones that use it now...

Also note that in general, you can game the construction rules by using spare tonnage to increase your engine rating, and then using that larger engine to slot in more heatsinks, and then using your spare critslots (from slotting those sinks) to add a tech upgrade.

Khobai, on 13 April 2015 - 05:54 PM, said:

Thats debateable since you cant choose whether or not you take Clan FF. Theres no conscious decision making or tradeoffs involved with Clan FF since its a locked item. Thats why I dont think Clan FF should be buffed. Rather each clan mech should be looked at individually to determine what tier it belongs to and what quirks it should get.

Not being given a choice in the matter doesn't change the underlying balance of the items. For example, having to take 5 JJs on a Thor doesn't change the fact that 5 JJs don't give as much of a benefit vs 2-3 JJs as they ought to. The Puma's hardwired Flamer doesn't make Flamers suddenly stop being poop. Etc... If those items weren't sub-par, then being hardlocked into taking them would no longer be considered a weakness, and would instead become a strength.

However, I guess it would be fair (and easier for PGI) to use poorly optimized base chassis as a criteria for bonus quirks.

Edited by FupDup, 13 April 2015 - 06:26 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 April 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

I like to think of it as tripled damage rate, because you could have an AC/20 that fires two rounds every second for 10 seconds. That's almost where the current AC/2 sits on certain 'Mechs like the BJ-1DC...

...holy crap, I have two AC/20s on my Blackjack!

No really, BT is on a ten second cycle, AC20s fire every 4 that is a 250% damage increase of TT value.

.....thought everyone knew that/

Khobai, on 13 April 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

The Thor gets +5% movement speed though. Thats basically 3 tons of free engine rating.

Yet still hits like a light,

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 13 April 2015 - 06:30 PM, said:

The Thor gets +5% movement speed though. Thats basically 3 tons of free engine rating.

If having more than 2-3 jets was more effective, the Thor wouldn't need that extra speed...

[Khobai]

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Yet still hits like a light,

To be fair more like a medium.

The main problem with the Thor is the locked jumpjets. I personally think jumpjets should only be locked on S omnipods. The non-S omnipods should be able to remove them.

[Y E O N N E]

Yokaiko, on 13 April 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

No really, BT is on a ten second cycle, AC20s fire every 4 that is a 250% damage increase of TT value.

.....thought everyone knew that/

I did know that. Where do you think the 10 seconds in my post came from, or did you not read it all the way?

Where I messed up was in my DPS math for my AC/2. I was thinking single point damage rounds rather than rounds that do two points. Firing two single-point rounds every second for ten seconds is 20 points, hence, AC/20.

However, firing two two-point rounds every second for ten seconds results in 40 damage, which would be two AC/20 in TT.

So, a single MWO AC/2 on a BJ-1DC fired over 10 seconds is worth only slightly less damage than two AC/20 in TT, with the primary distinction being that the damage spreads everywhere with the MWO AC/2.

[One Medic Army]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 April 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

So, a single MWO AC/2 on a BJ-1DC fired over 10 seconds is worth only slightly less damage than two AC/20 in TT, with the primary distinction being that the damage spreads everywhere with the MWO AC/2.

And yet it's still a terrible weapon to use. Tells you something about the value of concentrated damage. (Well, and AC/2s are hot as hell compared to every other ballistic).

[Mcgral18]

One Medic Army, on 13 April 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:

I'm assuming you're referring to the AC/2, which even at 18x fire-rate is still worthless? (well, tbh it was bad in TT to begin with).

That said, the game would have been much better if they'd gone with TT dmg value/10sec period, rather than per shot. Firing 1 per 10sec is pretty boring in a FPS-esque game, so the fire rate did need to go up.

It used to be that, or 14x, I'm talking about the Dragon which mounts two AC90s.

[Durant Carlyle]

Khobai, on 13 April 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

The main problem with the Thor is the locked jumpjets. I personally think jumpjets should only be locked on S omnipods. The non-S omnipods should be able to remove them.

Unlike other Omnis, the Summoner had fixed jump jets in every alternate configuration. It's simply a jumping 'Mech. The Nova and Mist Lynx are the same way.

The "S" alternate configurations were designed to give non-jumping Omnis a variant that could jump. The fixed jumpers shouldn't even have an S alternate configuration because they don't need it.