89 replies to this topic

[InspectorG]

Kills as skill???

Yes, perhaps.

But it could also mean you were the lucky last guy to hit the enemy.(LuRMer *cough*)

Were there a metric for SOLO kills in a pug, i think it would be a better measure of skill.

[Gyrok]

1453 R, on 15 April 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

A Wubberbolt is going to outbrawl a Vomit or Gausslasers TBR which is being forced to brawl, yes, but a Timber Wolf specifically built for brawling? I’m talking six C-SPL/four SRM-6 built-to-eat-your-face-like-a-dollar-menu-burger 75-ton back-alley mugger of a warbeast? If that TBR doesn’t walk up one side of a Wubberbolt and down the other in a brawl, then it’s because of a pilot imbalance.

Even if one still feels the 7x MPL Wubberbolt would outbrawl that particular Timber Wolf, it would be by only a slim margin, and said TBR would in turn outbrawl just about anything else. That and it’s got the speed to get into brawling range in the first place on top of jump capability, and the Wubberbolt only holds up because Thuds were the recipient of some of the worst examples of Spheroid-side overquirking.

And frankly, if the Timber Wolf ever gets access to that A-variant triple-beam shoulder hardpoint people’ve datamined out of the game files? Its already-arguable weaknesses as a sniper vanish like so much smoke and it becomes an absolutely top-echelon choice for hill-humping ERLL fire, too.

Ask Heim or Adiuvo or any of those other guys you mentioned what odds they’d give themselves against anyone else on the list, TBR to anything-else. Pretty certain the answer would not be 50/50. I know for a fact that I could use a Timber Wolf to take down my evil clone in pretty much anything else in my hangar, including Spheroid overquirkers. Gimme Breaker 19, a Vanilla Coke, and a stable network connection and I’ll drop as many of my-evil-clones as I need to in order to make my point, really.

Heim would pick a DW over a TW because he is smitten with the larger of the wolf namesakes. Adiuvo drives FS9s almost to exclusion of anything else...

I understand your point, and I think my answer makes my point all that much more understandable as well...

[1453 R]

Ironic, because the last time I saw Heim in a 2v2 tournament match (which was admittedly a while ago, as I don't generally keep track of the ultracomps' coming and going) he was in a TBR for the match.

The Dire Whale absolutely requires team support to not get flanked, swamped, and picked clean, and at the skill levels we're talking in this instance, the FS9 has to work a lot harder to leg a TBR than the TBR has to work to leg the FS9. Neither pilot is going to miss, which means the FS9 has to catch the TBR with its pants down. Which, again, requires team support to fix enemy positions and attentions so Adiuvo can get his ankle-gnawing strafing runs in.

A proper team around guys like Heim and Adiuvo can help those folks show off their individual talents to exceptional effect, and proper teamwork is always going to be a huge force multiplier for whichever side can manage it, but in a duel or even a 2V2 situation, neither Whales nor Firestarters are going to outperform Timber Wolves with equivalent pilots. Gyrok, man, you gotta let go of this notion that the TBR actually kinda sucks. A few Spheroid chassis arguably outfperform it in very specific niches due to Ludicrous-level quirkage, and one Clan heavy chassis outdoes it, again, in one specific niche (the Hellbringer is a better ERLL sniper, the TBR is a better everything else), but the fact is that the Timber Wolf can generally match anything you can do with any other chassis, if not exceed it.

We can't have any decent fix-it discussions without acknowledging where the problems in need of fixing are. If you want to try and angle for toning down stupidly oversized Spheroid quirks - and I very, very very much do - then we also need to admit that there's a reason Piranha figured those quirks were necessary in the first place, hm?

[Suko]

BlackhawkSC, on 14 April 2015 - 04:56 PM, said:

No mech is truly scary, only pilots are scary. By the way though I did kill you in my TBR-C but not before you took out half my weapons. Good game and nice shots!

Go to 9:10 of the video below

Cool to see me in a video. The Crab is new to me. It's been sitting in my hanger since it was gifted to me and I just started using it last week. Also, I think I was pretty f*cked over by the rest of your team by the time you finished me off. =D

P.S. My friends and I remember spectating that HBK at the end. He was so bad, it was painful to watch.

Edited by Suko, 15 April 2015 - 02:04 PM.

[Gyrok]

1453 R, on 15 April 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

Ironic, because the last time I saw Heim in a 2v2 tournament match (which was admittedly a while ago, as I don't generally keep track of the ultracomps' coming and going) he was in a TBR for the match.

The Dire Whale absolutely requires team support to not get flanked, swamped, and picked clean, and at the skill levels we're talking in this instance, the FS9 has to work a lot harder to leg a TBR than the TBR has to work to leg the FS9. Neither pilot is going to miss, which means the FS9 has to catch the TBR with its pants down. Which, again, requires team support to fix enemy positions and attentions so Adiuvo can get his ankle-gnawing strafing runs in.

A proper team around guys like Heim and Adiuvo can help those folks show off their individual talents to exceptional effect, and proper teamwork is always going to be a huge force multiplier for whichever side can manage it, but in a duel or even a 2V2 situation, neither Whales nor Firestarters are going to outperform Timber Wolves with equivalent pilots. Gyrok, man, you gotta let go of this notion that the TBR actually kinda sucks. A few Spheroid chassis arguably outfperform it in very specific niches due to Ludicrous-level quirkage, and one Clan heavy chassis outdoes it, again, in one specific niche (the Hellbringer is a better ERLL sniper, the TBR is a better everything else), but the fact is that the Timber Wolf can generally match anything you can do with any other chassis, if not exceed it.

We can't have any decent fix-it discussions without acknowledging where the problems in need of fixing are. If you want to try and angle for toning down stupidly oversized Spheroid quirks - and I very, very very much do - then we also need to admit that there's a reason Piranha figured those quirks were necessary in the first place, hm?

My point is this...

Looking at the stuff that is baked into the game...looking at the quirks...looking at all other variables. I am not convinced the TW honestly needs fixing beyond the JJ animation in last patch.

Let us be brutally honest:

IS LRMs > CLRMs (irrefutable)
IS ACs > Clan ACs (irrefutable)
IS SRMs > Clan SRMs (the spread difference hard coded in game is absurd)
IS PPCs > Clan ERPPC (quirks make all the difference here)
IS Lasers ~ Clan Lasers (quirks muddy this up...a lot...)
CGauss = IS Gauss (damage/speed/ammo all same/same)
CSSRMs = IS SSRMs (by volume of launcher available...there are...differences...that favor IS here, clans have more tubes though)

Considering all that...how can a 75 ton mech with very...average at best...hit boxes that runs hot as a furnace be considered OP?

Really look at it from the perspective that all the ultra comps are now saying..."yeah, this is close...maybe a minor tweak here or there...but yeah...we are basically where we should be..."

There are reasons that a "fix-it" discussion about the TW is in all reality no longer even necessary...which is why it is such a non-starter for so many who have looked at all these numbers...

Edited by Gyrok, 15 April 2015 - 02:16 PM.

[Red1769]

Quote

IS LRMs > CLRMs (irrefutable)
IS ACs > Clan ACs (irrefutable)
IS SRMs > Clan SRMs (the spread difference hard coded in game is absurd)
IS PPCs > Clan ERPPC (quirks make all the difference here)
IS Lasers ~ Clan Lasers (quirks muddy this up...a lot...)
CGauss = IS Gauss (damage/speed/ammo all same/same)
CSSRMs = IS SSRMs (by volume of launcher available...there are...differences...that favor IS here, clans have more tubes though)

Ok, I have to chime in on this part. I usually agree with you, but not on this one.

The first two is true, some of the more reasonable IS fellas will acknowledge those *looks at 1453 R*
The rest...well, with SRMs, the weight difference makes up for the slight damage and spread differences in my opinion. The next one is a toss up. IS has a more heat effiecient version, Clan has better ER version. Without quirks, though, I wouldn't bring any of them nowadays. Lasers...are a semi-mixed bag. As a whole, Clan Lasers are better despite their long beam durations and heat load. Why? Who knows what is the culprit...could be the weight savings on a select few, the range, or the damage. Quirks are the only reason they're close or equal. Guass rifles I have to laugh at you, weight savings makes Clan better all the way. SSRMs...weight savings win again here, plus their range.

Gotta look at the ENTIRE weapon system. Not just damage, spread, beam durations, projectile speed, heat, etc., but weight as well. It's why the AC/2 family on both sides are so poor...it's simply not worth its weight.

Personally, I think PGI should look into the base weapon stats first and balance those, and then look at quirks to add flavor and some balance with mechs.

[1453 R]

Gyrok, on 15 April 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

My point is this...

Dude? You’re insane.

Let’s go over this.

IS LRMs > CLRMs (irrefutable) I very much beg to differ. Spheroid salvo-fire does beat Clansman stream-fire, but the advantages to be had with half-weight, half-critslots launchers are undeniable. I prefer Clan LRMs when comparing the two systems directly, and as for ridiculous Spheroid quirks on certain launchers…well, that’s its own problem I-LRMs ~ C-LRMS
IS ACs > Clan ACs (irrefutable) True, and a point of balance contention which needs to be resolved, but even now Clan autocannons are serviceable in certain places.
IS SRMs > Clan SRMs (the spread difference hard coded in game is absurd) And with SRMs the spread is of less concern than the weight and size of the launchers. Half-weight one-crit C-SRMs leave you more room for ammo and heat sinks, and frankly I’ve never noticed a big difference in spread anyways. C-SRMs > I-SRMs
IS PPCs > Clan ERPPC (quirks make all the difference here) If your balancing metrics hinge on quirks than you can’t compare individual weapons. On a weapon-to-weapon basis, irrespective of platform , these two have advantages and disadvantages, and in either case the C-ERPPC is flat-out superior to the I-ER PPC before quirks. The idea is to NOT have Spheroid megaquirks be so stupidly overwhelming, remember? IS PPCs ~ C-ERPPC
IS Lasers ~ Clan Lasers (quirks muddy this up...a lot...) This is where my jaw just flat-out dropped. You have GOT to be kidding me, Gyrok. Clan beams take a fat graphic dump over Spheroid beams. Our smalls are amazing, their smalls are garbage outside ONE overquirked chassis. Our mediums are almost game-breakingly ridiculous, theirs are barely fit as backup guns. The larges are closer but still clearly in favor of the Clans. Even the best beam-quirked Spheroid ‘Mechs only match Clans at best. Come on man, you’re not even being funny at this point anymore. Clan beams most emphatically > Spheroid beams.
CGauss = IS Gauss (damage/speed/ammo all same/same) Never mind that the C-Gauss weighs three less tons than the I-Gauss for identical performance? C-Gauss > I-Gauss.
CSSRMs = IS SSRMs (by volume of launcher available...there are...differences...that favor IS here, clans have more tubes though)Again, you have got to be kidding me. Even ignoring the fact that the Inner Sphere doesn’t even HAVE Streak-4s or Streak-6s yet, C-SSRMs have a massive range advantage over I-SSRMs. Yeah, Clan SSRM launchers have less damage and longer cycle times…except not really, because the C-SSRM-2 has the same cycle time as the I-SSRM-2. So it’s a case of trading a bit of damage for a chunk of range, which makes this C-SSRMs ~ I-SSRMs.

And if you honestly believe the Timber Wolf has average at best hitboxes…well, you’re insane. The thing is halfway to Stalker; none of the assault-weight ‘Mechs I’ve piloted are half as durable as a Timber Wolf. There’s a reason I call it, and treat it as, the ultimate tip-of-the-spear ‘Mech – between its hitboxes and movement profile it can bull its way through incoming fire better than any other ‘Mech in the game even without jump jets. People realize that on a damn near instinctive level – it’s why Timber Wolves can lead charges nobody else can. You know that following a charging TBR is your best bet, because nothing’s going to stop that guy except concentrated fire from multiple enemies.

Ultracomps are saying that balance is close because it is. It’s closer than it’s ever been, as I’ve been telling people for a while now. Clan beams, especially midbeams, need to be toned down a touch, Clan ballistics could use a tune-up, the CXL nerf is mostly justified given how gob-smackingly powerful a CXL engine is, and the Spheroid side needs to realize that some of its 40+% quirks are just too much. And the Timber Wolf could use some honest competition for the slot of the game’s most strongly dominant ‘Mech. The jump animation fixes helped, the CXL nerf will help, the release of the Cauldron-Born will help. Sort of. At least in terms of inter-Clan balance.

But the fact remains that the Timber Wolf is the king of all trades. It can’t do them all at once the way some stooges think, but a Timber Wolf built to do a certain job will do that job better than anything else which does that job, with a very rare and highly arguable list of exceptions.

Gyrok, dude? You’ve been waving this flag on this soapbox since two Junes ago, and nobody’s listened. Time to let it go, man. Nobody, but nobody, wants the Timber Wolf dead, but I would really, really like for the heavy queues to drop below 50% once in a blue moon, eh? We’re never going to see it if we don’t start working on some of the worst offenders, on both sides of the tech divide.

[Corrado]

operatorZ, on 14 April 2015 - 12:08 PM, said:

please close and brawl with my SRM24 4ML Madcat.....Please?

so i heard you want to brawl....

TBR-C pure brawler

and

MDD-PRIME splatdog

[Corrado]

also... new variants are way better...

TBR-D new meta

and

GAR-D 6by6 good burst

Edited by Corrado, 15 April 2015 - 04:19 PM.

[Gyrok]

1453 R, on 15 April 2015 - 03:09 PM, said:

Dude? You’re insane.

Let’s go over this.

IS LRMs > CLRMs (irrefutable) I very much beg to differ. Spheroid salvo-fire does beat Clansman stream-fire, but the advantages to be had with half-weight, half-critslots launchers are undeniable. I prefer Clan LRMs when comparing the two systems directly, and as for ridiculous Spheroid quirks on certain launchers…well, that’s its own problem I-LRMs ~ C-LRMS
IS ACs > Clan ACs (irrefutable) True, and a point of balance contention which needs to be resolved, but even now Clan autocannons are serviceable in certain places.
IS SRMs > Clan SRMs (the spread difference hard coded in game is absurd) And with SRMs the spread is of less concern than the weight and size of the launchers. Half-weight one-crit C-SRMs leave you more room for ammo and heat sinks, and frankly I’ve never noticed a big difference in spread anyways. C-SRMs > I-SRMs
IS PPCs > Clan ERPPC (quirks make all the difference here) If your balancing metrics hinge on quirks than you can’t compare individual weapons. On a weapon-to-weapon basis, irrespective of platform , these two have advantages and disadvantages, and in either case the C-ERPPC is flat-out superior to the I-ER PPC before quirks. The idea is to NOT have Spheroid megaquirks be so stupidly overwhelming, remember? IS PPCs ~ C-ERPPC
IS Lasers ~ Clan Lasers (quirks muddy this up...a lot...) This is where my jaw just flat-out dropped. You have GOT to be kidding me, Gyrok. Clan beams take a fat graphic dump over Spheroid beams. Our smalls are amazing, their smalls are garbage outside ONE overquirked chassis. Our mediums are almost game-breakingly ridiculous, theirs are barely fit as backup guns. The larges are closer but still clearly in favor of the Clans. Even the best beam-quirked Spheroid ‘Mechs only match Clans at best. Come on man, you’re not even being funny at this point anymore. Clan beams most emphatically > Spheroid beams.
CGauss = IS Gauss (damage/speed/ammo all same/same) Never mind that the C-Gauss weighs three less tons than the I-Gauss for identical performance? C-Gauss > I-Gauss.
CSSRMs = IS SSRMs (by volume of launcher available...there are...differences...that favor IS here, clans have more tubes though)Again, you have got to be kidding me. Even ignoring the fact that the Inner Sphere doesn’t even HAVE Streak-4s or Streak-6s yet, C-SSRMs have a massive range advantage over I-SSRMs. Yeah, Clan SSRM launchers have less damage and longer cycle times…except not really, because the C-SSRM-2 has the same cycle time as the I-SSRM-2. So it’s a case of trading a bit of damage for a chunk of range, which makes this C-SSRMs ~ I-SSRMs.

And if you honestly believe the Timber Wolf has average at best hitboxes…well, you’re insane. The thing is halfway to Stalker; none of the assault-weight ‘Mechs I’ve piloted are half as durable as a Timber Wolf. There’s a reason I call it, and treat it as, the ultimate tip-of-the-spear ‘Mech – between its hitboxes and movement profile it can bull its way through incoming fire better than any other ‘Mech in the game even without jump jets. People realize that on a damn near instinctive level – it’s why Timber Wolves can lead charges nobody else can. You know that following a charging TBR is your best bet, because nothing’s going to stop that guy except concentrated fire from multiple enemies.

Ultracomps are saying that balance is close because it is. It’s closer than it’s ever been, as I’ve been telling people for a while now. Clan beams, especially midbeams, need to be toned down a touch, Clan ballistics could use a tune-up, the CXL nerf is mostly justified given how gob-smackingly powerful a CXL engine is, and the Spheroid side needs to realize that some of its 40+% quirks are just too much. And the Timber Wolf could use some honest competition for the slot of the game’s most strongly dominant ‘Mech. The jump animation fixes helped, the CXL nerf will help, the release of the Cauldron-Born will help. Sort of. At least in terms of inter-Clan balance.

But the fact remains that the Timber Wolf is the king of all trades. It can’t do them all at once the way some stooges think, but a Timber Wolf built to do a certain job will do that job better than anything else which does that job, with a very rare and highly arguable list of exceptions.

Gyrok, dude? You’ve been waving this flag on this soapbox since two Junes ago, and nobody’s listened. Time to let it go, man. Nobody, but nobody, wants the Timber Wolf dead, but I would really, really like for the heavy queues to drop below 50% once in a blue moon, eh? We’re never going to see it if we don’t start working on some of the worst offenders, on both sides of the tech divide.

Weight is irrelevant until clans can change engines or endo/ferro, or until IS mechs can mount clan tech. That is your entire point of contention with LRMs and SRMs, and most of the rest of it.

Weight means nothing when you only have so much to work with as opposed to a blank slate.

Also, what range advantage for clan lasers? When quirked IS mechs can get 911m effective range with range 5 modules and clans get 802m...? Plus IS can now fire 3 LL at once out to 585m+, and the 4N stalker has better range than the laser vomit timby, with shorter beam durations and less heat.

As for ppcs, do you even see them on nonquirked mechs? No. I am looking at real world here. If you see ppcs on a mech, it has heat reduction, or 30%+ velocity, or cooldown, or a combination of the above buffs. That cannot be compared to a stock CERPPC, it is a farce to pretend otherwise.

For streaks, if IS had larger tube counts, clan streaks would be subpar comparatively because spread.

As for quirks, yeah they are nuts, but I just do not see them going away as a balance mechanic...here is why:

1.) Too easy to change quirks on the fly for underperformers.

2.) Less work than rewriting entire weapon systems.

3.) They are "pot committed" by work (money and man hours) spent on making the quirks

4.) It allows adjustment to a single chassis without borking another.

Do they get it right every time? Clearly not...

Will that change? I hope so...

Does what we think here change PGIs perception of the success of quirks? My money says not a freaking bit.

Call me cynical, skeptical, whatever, I call it pragmatism, and I am too damn old for tomfoolery over what might change at this point. We can kid ourselves all day long, but as a developer, I can tell you, minor adjustments to "the vision" might be doable, major changes are off the table.

Also, consider, the last time clans and IS had elo data, clans were predicted by elo to win ~60-65%. They won 53% this last go around.

Did the elo data change and predict this? Can we ever know? What if the skill gap was the same but clans won ~10-12% less often than predicted? Would you call that balance if my supposition turned out accurate? To quote Jim Carrey from a long gone batman movie..."too many questions, there's just too many questions"