89 replies to this topic

[Shinikaru]

Mirumoto Izanami, on 15 April 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

These things do not compute.

TIMBER WOLF TBR-S 225 125 91 1.37 243 138 1.76 101,691 275,398 1 day 05:25:05

[KuroNyra]

Gyrok, on 15 April 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

Hmm...really?

TDR-5SS
TDR-9S
STK-4N
BLR-3S
BNC-3E
KGC-000/0000/000b
DRG-1N
WVR-6K
GRF-3M
SHD-2K
FS9-S
FS9-A
RVN-3L
SDR-5D
JM6-FB
CPT-K2
CDA-3M

I am sure I am missing a few that punch equally well pound for pound with clan mechs...

Your missing the Urbanmechs who can be extremely dangerous against Clan Light mech.

Mirumoto Izanami, on 15 April 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

I'd wager the percentage of playable, 'they don't gimp your team simply by being on it with an average pilot' mechs is within a few points of each other across the clan and IS lists. Clans just simply have fewer chassis. Though the new wave should greatly increase the clan's percentage in this regard.

Yeah, the arrival of the Cauldron Born, Artic Cheetah and the Mighty Shadow Cat should bring much more viable choice.

Edited by KuroNyra, 15 April 2015 - 10:29 AM.

[Shinikaru]

Mirumoto Izanami, on 15 April 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

I'd wager the percentage of playable, 'they don't gimp your team simply by being on it with an average pilot' mechs is within a few points of each other across the clan and IS lists. Clans just simply have fewer chassis. Though the new wave should greatly increase the clan's percentage in this regard.

It does not matter at all WHAT chasis your in. If your a bad pilot you gimp your team. There is not a SINGLE chasis that will make a bad pilot average, or an average pilot good.
You're either good or you arent.
You don't get a Medal for showing up.

Edited by Shinikaru, 15 April 2015 - 10:29 AM.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Shinikaru, on 15 April 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

TIMBER WOLF TBR-S 225 125 91 1.37 243 138 1.76 101,691 275,398 1 day 05:25:05

I'm not doubting the KDR. I'm doubting the 5 kills a match average you claim.

Edited by Mirumoto Izanami, 15 April 2015 - 10:30 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Scout Derek, on 14 April 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

Watching the first video...made my intestines want to jump out of my stomache, up my espohagus and strangle my brain.

An Ember fails to take out a LRMtaro at point blank range. o.O

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Shinikaru, on 15 April 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

It does not matter at all WHAT chasis your in. If your a bad pilot you gimp your team. There is not a SINGLE chasis that will make a bad pilot average, or an average pilot good.
You're either good or you arent.
You don't get a Medal for showing up.

You misunderstand what I am saying. I'm saying that, given an average pilot, the percentage of chassis that will not gimp your team if its on your side is roughly the same between factions. Your reply has nothing to do with that.

[Shinikaru]

Mirumoto Izanami, on 15 April 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

I'm not doubting the KDR. I'm doubting the 5 kills a match average you claim.

eh maybe its closer to 3. my match ratio pulls down the kdr ratio if you do the math.

[1453 R]

Shinikaru, on 15 April 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

eh maybe its closer to 3. my match ratio pulls down the kdr ratio if you do the math.

Dude. What he means is that if you have a 1.8 KDR, then your average kills per match is, y'know...a little less than two? Unless you can somehow get five kills but also two deaths per match, or you get five kills then die without a kill in your next two matches and just neglect to count those in your averaging.

But 'averaging' five kills a match with the 'Mech would mean your KDR would be at or above 5, depending on how often you die after getting your five kills. Because you can only die once per match, your average per-match kill count mathematically cannot be higher than your KDR.

Well, unless you CW maybe, but nobody cares about CW anyways.

Edited by 1453 R, 15 April 2015 - 10:47 AM.

[Shinikaru]

Mirumoto Izanami, on 15 April 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

You misunderstand what I am saying. I'm saying that, given an average pilot, the percentage of chassis that will not gimp your team if its on your side is roughly the same between factions. Your reply has nothing to do with that.

I agree with that conditionally. There are definately a few chasis that take a more experianced skill level to use. Timber, to get back to the OP topic, might have an easier learning curve over say a knee shooting atlas, or a stormcrow, or even any light mech from either side.
But my point, is simply that being in a timber does'nt make for a winning match. Which is sort of the definition of what would be 'OP' in this game.
(in theory) op in this game would have to mean something like: a chasis that ensures you kill more than the enimies you kill do, while only having slight to average skill, simply due to using said chasis.

[Lightfoot]

You can fear the Timber-Wolf Alt-D. The rest are okay, but not the Alt-D.

[Xetelian]

Shinikaru, on 15 April 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

It does not matter at all WHAT chasis your in. If your a bad pilot you gimp your team. There is not a SINGLE chasis that will make a bad pilot average, or an average pilot good.
You're either good or you arent.
You don't get a Medal for showing up.

I disagree with this.

Put a new player in an awesome for the first time and you'll get different results than if you put them in a direwolf but I think the difference between an AWS and a DWF is large enough to be a factor in how well someone is able to do.

My main reasoning is that I personally do better in my DWF than my AWS. Noticeably better in my DWF because of the 90 damage alpha vs the 58 damage alpha.

Edited by Xetelian, 15 April 2015 - 10:50 AM.

[Shinikaru]

1453 R, on 15 April 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

Dude. What he means is that if you have a 1.8 KDR, then your average kills per match is, y'know...a little less than two? Unless you can somehow get five kills but also two deaths per match, or you get five kills then die without a kill in your next two matches and just neglect to count those in your averaging.

But 'averaging' five kills a match with the 'Mech would mean your KDR would be at or above 5, depending on how often you die after getting your five kills. Because you can only die once per match, your average per-match kill count mathematically cannot be higher than your KDR.

Well, unless you CW maybe, but nobody cares about CW anyways.

kdr is a derivative affected by match win/loss. and i do use this chasis for cw. i find a brawler to be handy for light rushes. 1.8 is what i get by the boards and i Rarely die before killing 3 or more. /shrug. show me anyone with a kdr over time that is 5.0. im sure theres more than a few people that have similar numbers and Also get 3+kills a match.

Edited by Shinikaru, 15 April 2015 - 10:52 AM.

[Shinikaru]

Xetelian, on 15 April 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

I disagree with this.

Put a new player in an awesome for the first time and you'll get different results than if you put them in a direwolf but I think the difference between an AWS and a DWF is large enough to be a factor in how well someone is able to do.

My main reasoning is that I personally do better in my DWF than my AWS. Noticeably better in my DWF because of the 90 damage alpha vs the 58 damage alpha.

you kind of miss my point. If i have a new player in a whale, and a skilled pilot in a whale, which one do you think not only gets a better match score, but also adds to a winn over a loss?

[Xetelian]

Maybe I didn't get something about what you meant but no one is going to argue that a new player is going to outscore a veteran...that's too stupid to argue.

[Lightfoot]

Timber Wolf is not the best Mech available to players. No doubt some pilots do their best in them, but it's not the best mech. Since the Beta Test is over I don't rate the best mechs or load-outs. That would be kind of a Spoiler. It's better for players to do their own Quest for the Best. More immersive.

[Vandul]

[Gyrok]

Shinikaru, on 15 April 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

kdr is a derivative affected by match win/loss. and i do use this chasis for cw. i find a brawler to be handy for light rushes. 1.8 is what i get by the boards and i Rarely die before killing 3 or more. /shrug. show me anyone with a kdr over time that is 5.0. im sure theres more than a few people that have similar numbers and Also get 3+kills a match.

You cannot have 3 kills per match and a KDR under that. Simply because you cannot die more than once in a match.

CW does no count...hell, in my all energy hellbie, I had a CW match against PUGs where I played that mech only for the entire match, killed 15 mechs and did 2600 damage.

That, however, does not equate to having 4 kills per match or anything comparative.

You are claiming something your numbers disprove.

As for KDR over 5...talk to heimdelight, twinky overlord, adiuvo, siriothrax, and probably a number of other guys that do have KDRs like that.

[1453 R]

Shinikaru, on 15 April 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

kdr is a derivative affected by match win/loss. and i do use this chasis for cw. i find a brawler to be handy for light rushes. 1.8 is what i get by the boards and i Rarely die before killing 3 or more. /shrug. show me anyone with a kdr over time that is 5.0. im sure theres more than a few people that have similar numbers and Also get 3+kills a match.

KDR is in no way affected by match win/loss. It's the ratio of how many kills you have to how many deaths; nothing more, nothing less. In no realistic way can someone 'average' five kills a match and have less than 2 KDR, unless they play nothing but CW and die three or four times a match as well in three or four copies of the same 'Mech. Which, as this is a Timber Wolf, is impossible inside the restrictions of Clan drop deck tonnage, as I believe you can only get two Timber Wolves in a CW drop deck maximum So even in CW, you can only die a maximum of twice in your TBR-S brawler, which means that if you averaged five kills a match in your TBR-S brawler - assuming you played it completely 100% exclusively in CW - then you would have a 2.5 KDR in it, at the very least.

Or, TL;DR - no, you don't average 5 kills a match in your TBR-S. Math says it's impossible. You may average five kills a match when you're on a hot streak, and nobody averages as many kills a match as they think they do so you're hardly alone, but the math says no.

Shinikaru, on 15 April 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

I agree with that conditionally. There are definately a few chasis that take a more experianced skill level to use. Timber, to get back to the OP topic, might have an easier learning curve over say a knee shooting atlas, or a stormcrow, or even any light mech from either side.
But my point, is simply that being in a timber does'nt make for a winning match. Which is sort of the definition of what would be 'OP' in this game.
(in theory) op in this game would have to mean something like: a chasis that ensures you kill more than the enimies you kill do, while only having slight to average skill, simply due to using said chasis.

'Overpowered' means that all other factors being (relatively) equal within the best abilities of the game, a thing offers a noticeably greater than even chance of bringing its user victory. Alternatively, the 'Mech has to be able to out-compete all of its competitors in any role one might ask of it, such that there is no stronger choice for a given role than the OP machine. Either definition works, and in neither case does the overpoweredness have to be overwhelming.

It doesn't have to be an unstoppable army-breaking demon-slaying war god that can take out twelve Whales piloted by cybernetically enhanced Morgan Kell clones by itself with a one-armed blue-balled chimpanzee in the cockpit to be deemed OP. It merely has to be a stronger choice than any of its competitors, and the Timber Wolf is demonstrably a stronger choice for any reasonable role than any of its competitors. It outbrawls brawlers, it outvomits vomiters, it outstrikes strikers, it outsnipes (most) snipers. it doesn't do all of these things by enormous margins - in fact I would consider the TBR to be somewhat weak in a long-range snipefest, outperformed by the Hellbringer and soon to be rather sharply outperformed by the Cauldron-Born - but it does outperform all other choices in all other roles by at least a slim margin.

Ergo, it is overpowered. Unfortunately, as it's also just an incredibly fun 'Mech to use, and it's not so ridiculously broke-xorz as to be unplayable by those without wicked hearts (no matter how venomous JohnnyZ gets). It's just really, really good in a game where almost everything is only conditionally really good.

[Gyrok]

1453 R, on 15 April 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

KDR is in no way affected by match win/loss. It's the ratio of how many kills you have to how many deaths; nothing more, nothing less. In no realistic way can someone 'average' five kills a match and have less than 2 KDR, unless they play nothing but CW and die three or four times a match as well in three or four copies of the same 'Mech. Which, as this is a Timber Wolf, is impossible inside the restrictions of Clan drop deck tonnage, as I believe you can only get two Timber Wolves in a CW drop deck maximum So even in CW, you can only die a maximum of twice in your TBR-S brawler, which means that if you averaged five kills a match in your TBR-S brawler - assuming you played it completely 100% exclusively in CW - then you would have a 2.5 KDR in it, at the very least.

Or, TL;DR - no, you don't average 5 kills a match in your TBR-S. Math says it's impossible. You may average five kills a match when you're on a hot streak, and nobody averages as many kills a match as they think they do so you're hardly alone, but the math says no.



'Overpowered' means that all other factors being (relatively) equal within the best abilities of the game, a thing offers a noticeably greater than even chance of bringing its user victory. Alternatively, the 'Mech has to be able to out-compete all of its competitors in any role one might ask of it, such that there is no stronger choice for a given role than the OP machine. Either definition works, and in neither case does the overpoweredness have to be overwhelming.

It doesn't have to be an unstoppable army-breaking demon-slaying war god that can take out twelve Whales piloted by cybernetically enhanced Morgan Kell clones by itself with a one-armed blue-balled chimpanzee in the cockpit to be deemed OP. It merely has to be a stronger choice than any of its competitors, and the Timber Wolf is demonstrably a stronger choice for any reasonable role than any of its competitors. It outbrawls brawlers, it outvomits vomiters, it outstrikes strikers, it outsnipes (most) snipers. it doesn't do all of these things by enormous margins - in fact I would consider the TBR to be somewhat weak in a long-range snipefest, outperformed by the Hellbringer and soon to be rather sharply outperformed by the Cauldron-Born - but it does outperform all other choices in all other roles by at least a slim margin.

Ergo, it is overpowered. Unfortunately, as it's also just an incredibly fun 'Mech to use, and it's not so ridiculously broke-xorz as to be unplayable by those without wicked hearts (no matter how venomous JohnnyZ gets). It's just really, really good in a game where almost everything is only conditionally really good.

I would argue some brawlers out brawl it...like the 5SS pulse boat among others.

At range, the 4N stalker is vastly more firepower...in fact, the 4 ERLL 5SS build is a lot of firepower too at greater range with similar speed and less tonnage.

I see the TW as the best at being jack of all trades. It does not do everything better than everything else, it just does everything better than any niche role mech could change roles...(though the 5SS is honestly an interesting case for the IS in that regard, slightly less armor, and no JJs, but still strong...)

[1453 R]

Gyrok, on 15 April 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

I would argue some brawlers out brawl it...like the 5SS pulse boat among others.

At range, the 4N stalker is vastly more firepower...in fact, the 4 ERLL 5SS build is a lot of firepower too at greater range with similar speed and less tonnage.

I see the TW as the best at being jack of all trades. It does not do everything better than everything else, it just does everything better than any niche role mech could change roles...(though the 5SS is honestly an interesting case for the IS in that regard, slightly less armor, and no JJs, but still strong...)

A Wubberbolt is going to outbrawl a Vomit or Gausslasers TBR which is being forced to brawl, yes, but a Timber Wolf specifically built for brawling? I’m talking six C-SPL/four SRM-6 built-to-eat-your-face-like-a-dollar-menu-burger 75-ton back-alley mugger of a warbeast? If that TBR doesn’t walk up one side of a Wubberbolt and down the other in a brawl, then it’s because of a pilot imbalance.

Even if one still feels the 7x MPL Wubberbolt would outbrawl that particular Timber Wolf, it would be by only a slim margin, and said TBR would in turn outbrawl just about anything else. That and it’s got the speed to get into brawling range in the first place on top of jump capability, and the Wubberbolt only holds up because Thuds were the recipient of some of the worst examples of Spheroid-side overquirking.

And frankly, if the Timber Wolf ever gets access to that A-variant triple-beam shoulder hardpoint people’ve datamined out of the game files? Its already-arguable weaknesses as a sniper vanish like so much smoke and it becomes an absolutely top-echelon choice for hill-humping ERLL fire, too.

Ask Heim or Adiuvo or any of those other guys you mentioned what odds they’d give themselves against anyone else on the list, TBR to anything-else. Pretty certain the answer would not be 50/50. I know for a fact that I could use a Timber Wolf to take down my evil clone in pretty much anything else in my hangar, including Spheroid overquirkers. Gimme Breaker 19, a Vanilla Coke, and a stable network connection and I’ll drop as many of my-evil-clones as I need to in order to make my point, really.