89 replies to this topic

[InspectorG]

Timby is not 'OP'.

It just has all the nice attributes with few if any of the drawbacks.

[MrZakalwe]

InspectorG, on 14 April 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Timby is not 'OP'.

It just has all the nice attributes with few if any of the drawbacks.

It has optimal hitboxes, firepower, armour, mobility, cooling and no real drawbacks. It's not enormously overpowered but it is overpowered.

[Telmasa]

Main reason TBR is given the misperception of being OP, is that it can run the 4ERML+2LPL build with max heatsinks...or it can go streak6/4s+cerml, and also has just the right crit space/tonnage to make it work.


If CERML and Streak6s were nerfed a bit, I guarantee alot of the "omg stormcrow and timberwolf so op" thread junk would go away real fast.

[Deathpactt]

I do not think twolf is op. he has a armor of 75 ton mech, a heavy clan mech speed and a normal firepower for its tonnage compare to other clan mechs hellbringer and stormcrow. After quirks he is not tanky compare to most of the IS heavies. it has a way longer exposure(I am not sure if I wrote this right) time again compare to IS mechs so even with its nice twist speed, you either have to twist before the all laser duration or take a nice dmg to a specifis part. Like all other mechs it has ++ and--.

Edited by Deathpactt, 14 April 2015 - 03:15 PM.

[Ted Wayz]

I respect the Timber God. I do not fear most people who pilot it. Some green pilot thinks, "I am in the Timber Wolf, I am invincible!" and then does a 0 kill 1 assist 7 damage match after wading into the opposition with his invincibility cloak on.

Bad pilots tend to flock to mechs that they think will make them better.

[1453 R]

Darth Bane001, on 14 April 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

Um the summoner isn't even worth fearing can barely hold any weaponry due to forced jump jets. Madcat is much more capable mech than summoner any day. It cant hold that much ammo and a lot more limited in either range compared to it.

The Summoner is honestly a lot more capable than many people give it credit for. I will admit, I was one of those who figured it was just complete and utter trash back in the day, but over time, seeing some countervailing opinions from people I respect and after working through it myself, it’s my belief that the Summoner competes reasonably well with most any Spheroid heavy you want to stack it up against. Its options are much more limited than the Timber Wolf – the Summoner gets basically three builds (Gausslasers, Wub Vomit, and SRMs), while the Timber Wolf gets pretty much all the builds – but the Summoner has excellent ballistic mounts, enough energy to supplement those ballistics, it’s reasonably sturdy/doesn’t have outlandishly bad hitboxes or scaling issues like some ‘Mechs I can name (QUICKHOPPERS O_O), and for some reason it jumps better than most anything else in the heavy bracket.

Yeah, the TBR poops all over it, but frankly the TBR poops all over everything so I find that to be something of a nonargument. Against your JagerMechs, your Thunderbolts, your Cataphracts and Catapults, your Grasshoppers and Orions? Even your Mad Doges and Hellbringers? I’d say the Summoner can do its job. It’s not any kind of unstoppable, and it does have to do more with less, but I know a number of heavies who would sacrifice an actuator or two for some of what the Summoner has.

Compared to the median line, and not to the Timber Wolf, and the Summoner is solidly Piranha Tier 3. Quad SRM-6, or Gauss and 4x C-ERML (or alternatively 2x each C-LPL and C-MPL, for the Wub folks) may not be instantaneously fear-inducing the way the Wolf and Hellbringer can manage, but it’s still enough to get the job done.

And if the job gets done, what else is there to say?

[xImmortalx]

See, the trick to the TBR is that it isn't an overwhelming monster mech that makes you instantly GTFO if you run into it alone, a la Space Whale or 2xAC20 KC (or streak crow for lights). The trick is that it's a 90kph (elited) 75 tonner with JJs that can hit you with 54 points of pinpoint damage(TBR C laser vomit) at ~450m in just over a second. No other mech in the game has that combination of speed, maneuverability, firepower and armor.

If it's driven by a decent pilot it's an absolute nightmare not because it rapes your face in under 10 seconds but because it's always where it needs to be and you can't really match up well with it in any mech. Some mechs it can outmaneuver/outrun and others it can straight up tank/overpower. It could not have JJs and still be just as stupid.

For players who are used to IS heavies where you need serious tradeoffs (also IS XL), I think the feeling is a lot like the first spheroids in BT who got ganked by this mech - how can something like this exist? But don't get me wrong: I'm not for nerfing anything. Clan mechs are supposed to be this stupid. This was a period in BT when the IS was way behind in technology and they made up for it via numbers, skill and sheer dumb luck. For parity the timeline needs to move forward a few more years so IS tech can start catching up and then maybe IS-Clan balance will be easier to do.

[Gyrok]

xImmortalx, on 14 April 2015 - 04:20 PM, said:

See, the trick to the TBR is that it isn't an overwhelming monster mech that makes you instantly GTFO if you run into it alone, a la Space Whale or 2xAC20 KC (or streak crow for lights). The trick is that it's a 90kph (elited) 75 tonner with JJs that can hit you with 54 points of pinpoint damage(TBR C laser vomit) at ~450m in just over a second. No other mech in the game has that combination of speed, maneuverability, firepower and armor.

If it's driven by a decent pilot it's an absolute nightmare not because it rapes your face in under 10 seconds but because it's always where it needs to be and you can't really match up well with it in any mech. Some mechs it can outmaneuver/outrun and others it can straight up tank/overpower. It could not have JJs and still be just as stupid.

For players who are used to IS heavies where you need serious tradeoffs (also IS XL), I think the feeling is a lot like the first spheroids in BT who got ganked by this mech - how can something like this exist? But don't get me wrong: I'm not for nerfing anything. Clan mechs are supposed to be this stupid. This was a period in BT when the IS was way behind in technology and they made up for it via numbers, skill and sheer dumb luck. For parity the timeline needs to move forward a few more years so IS tech can start catching up and then maybe IS-Clan balance will be easier to do.

The Victor, AWS9M, TDR5SS, and DRG1N ,would all like to talk about speed, armor, and firepower, especially the victors...

[LordBraxton]

the only thing that makes me pause is dakka gods like the crab and whale...

but if OP thinks that a summoner is the same threat as a timbie, he is on an island

[bad arcade kitty]

Ted Wayz, on 14 April 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

0 kill 1 assist 7 damage match

you just reminded me.. i recently had 1 damage 3 assist game
that 1 point of damage paid me 10+k c-bills (:

[xImmortalx]

Gyrok, on 14 April 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

The Victor, AWS9M, TDR5SS, and DRG1N ,would all like to talk about speed, armor, and firepower, especially the victors...

The Victor can do 75kph on a mid range config or 80kph on a brawler (both elited), both with an XL. I don't care how XL-safe people say it is, if you see a Victor run that fast you automatically go for side torsos. I will concede that it's pretty tanky even with an XL but it still has to make trade-offs to get close to the TBR in certain areas. And it's an assault. And most of its firepower is usually on that right arm.

The Awesome is pretty much the same story except running an XL on it is suicide. So it's either slow and powerful or fast-ish and a 2-3 shot kill.

I LOVE the TDR. It's probably my favorite heavy in the game and the standard 'wubs' TDR-5SS is a pretty close match on everything except range. The TBR will be doing full damage at a range where the TDR can barely scratch paint. And the TBR is still faster than the TDR.

As for the Dragon, it's bad regardless of quirk magic. AC5 spam is nice if you're face hugging the enemy mech but with that ginormous CT anything else means you get 2 clicked long before you can do much damage.

Edited by xImmortalx, 14 April 2015 - 04:56 PM.

[1453 R]

Gyrok, on 14 April 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

The Victor, AWS9M, TDR5SS, and DRG1N ,would all like to talk about speed, armor, and firepower, especially the victors...

Gyrok, man…listen to yourself. You know me dude, you know I’m the last thing from a slobbering Clan-hating ******* in these forums…but if you’re honestly telling me that you think an Awesome is in the same league as the Timber Wolf, then you need to stop, back up, and re-examine your observations.

The DRG-1N is the one-trickest of one-trick ponies and would still be almost completely worthless without those ridiculous AC/5 quirks – and I say this as someone who piloted a DRG-1N as his very first owned ‘Mech in MWO. The Thunderbolts are also constrained – they perform great when they follow their quirks but are generally average otherwise, and again I say this as somebody who ended up getting hip-deep in Thunderbolts before the Quirkening. Victors have lost a lot of ground, and the Awesome?

Look, Gyrok. The Timber Wolf is not the virgin-****** baby-eating Satanspawn a number of Spheroid pilots try to make it out as, but Immortal pretty much nailed it – it handily outfights anything it can’t outrun and it handily outruns anything it can’t outfight. It’s fast enough to be where it needs to be, it has enough firepower to really make you wish it wasn’t there, and between its highly advantageous hitboxes, its sweet-spot weight and resultant armor levels, the massive durability boost of a CXL, and its mobility tier, it can trade evenly or better in any realistic situation a competent pilot should find himself in. I know – I love my Timber Wolves to death because they let me tip the spear and drag my idiot puglies along behind me while I show them where their firepower should be.

It doesn’t need or deserve to get megagagglegiganerfed the way some jack-monkey screechers around here have been screaming for, but in no way is an Awesome equivalent to a Timber Wolf. The TBR needs looked at. I don’t know what to do to it yet, but at this point we can’t really argue that it could use some trimming-up. Especially if said trimming opens the door to reductions in some particularly egregious-and-unnecessarily-overdone Spheroid-side megaquirks, eh?

C’mon, man. Give it up already. Nobody (sane) wants the Timber Wolf smashed into the ground. Frankly I imagine most folks would still like it to be one of the top ‘Mechs in the game. Just…maybe not head-and-shoulders above everything else in every weight class?

[_____]

Suko, on 14 April 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

I genuinely want to know. What's so scary about it?

No mech is truly scary, only pilots are scary. By the way though I did kill you in my TBR-C but not before you took out half my weapons. Good game and nice shots!

Go to 9:10 of the video below

Edited by BlackhawkSC, 14 April 2015 - 05:02 PM.

[xImmortalx]

1453 R, on 14 April 2015 - 04:53 PM, said:

Gyrok, man…listen to yourself. You know me dude, you know I’m the last thing from a slobbering Clan-hating ******* in these forums…but if you’re honestly telling me that you think an Awesome is in the same league as the Timber Wolf, then you need to stop, back up, and re-examine your observations.

The DRG-1N is the one-trickest of one-trick ponies and would still be almost completely worthless without those ridiculous AC/5 quirks – and I say this as someone who piloted a DRG-1N as his very first owned ‘Mech in MWO. The Thunderbolts are also constrained – they perform great when they follow their quirks but are generally average otherwise, and again I say this as somebody who ended up getting hip-deep in Thunderbolts before the Quirkening. Victors have lost a lot of ground, and the Awesome?

Look, Gyrok. The Timber Wolf is not the virgin-****** baby-eating Satanspawn a number of Spheroid pilots try to make it out as, but Immortal pretty much nailed it – it handily outfights anything it can’t outrun and it handily outruns anything it can’t outfight. It’s fast enough to be where it needs to be, it has enough firepower to really make you wish it wasn’t there, and between its highly advantageous hitboxes, its sweet-spot weight and resultant armor levels, the massive durability boost of a CXL, and its mobility tier, it can trade evenly or better in any realistic situation a competent pilot should find himself in. I know – I love my Timber Wolves to death because they let me tip the spear and drag my idiot puglies along behind me while I show them where their firepower should be.

It doesn’t need or deserve to get megagagglegiganerfed the way some jack-monkey screechers around here have been screaming for, but in no way is an Awesome equivalent to a Timber Wolf. The TBR needs looked at. I don’t know what to do to it yet, but at this point we can’t really argue that it could use some trimming-up. Especially if said trimming opens the door to reductions in some particularly egregious-and-unnecessarily-overdone Spheroid-side megaquirks, eh?

C’mon, man. Give it up already. Nobody (sane) wants the Timber Wolf smashed into the ground. Frankly I imagine most folks would still like it to be one of the top ‘Mechs in the game. Just…maybe not head-and-shoulders above everything else in every weight class?

The "virgin-****** baby-eating Satanspawn" part actually made me LOL IRL. Very nicely put, sir.

I'm at an impasse. I love the TDR's looks and the excellent-for-an-IS-mech loadouts it can run but the TBR is just so much fun to drive. Same for the SCR. I was grinding elites for the SCR this weekend and that mech is just a joy to drive. Unlike most IS mechs, these two never feel like they're fighting you. You just ask them nicely and they do what you want them to.

[Mawai]

Timberwolf is a good mech. It is better than most if not all other mechs in the game.

Is it twice as good? Ten times as good? Of course not. Probably on the order of 25% better than mechs of a comparable tonnage.

It is fast for a a heavy ... carries significant weaponry ... is heavily armored ... has decent hit boxes and hard points.

All bundled together it makes it an amazing mech.

My Catapult-J can be configured to be a bit faster ... but it only comes with either 2xPPC + 4ML or 2LL + 4ML as optimal loadouts (the LL takes advantage of quirks) ... it is only 65 tons and has a huge CT. Stalkers at 85 tons can have armament that comes close to a Timberwolf ... but they are slow and their hit boxes make them very vulnerable to fire from the side ... torso twisting is often not a good idea on a Stalker because it exposes the easy to hit side torso and makes the Stalker a bigger target.

Can you kill a Timberwolf ... sure ... but it is difficult 1:1 in most mechs. A 7 MPL TDR-5SS might stand a chance in a brawl just due to the quirks ... but it is hard to say. So ... no fear ... but there is no denying that the best mech in the game right now is either a TImberwolf or Stormcrow.

[El Bandito]

In Hearthstone terms, Timbie is like a 7 mana cost minion with 7/8/8 stats. (DPS/mobility/durability) Equal tonnage IS Orion would be a 7 mana minion with 7/6/6 stats. It is not as much as fear, but how unfairly good it is for the tonnage.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 April 2015 - 05:20 PM.

[1453 R]

El Bandito, on 14 April 2015 - 05:19 PM, said:

In Hearthstone terms, Timbie is like a 7 mana cost minion with 7/8/8 stats. (DPS/mobility/durability) Equal tonnage IS Orion would be a 7 mana minion with 7/6/6 stats. It is not as much as fear, but how unfairly good it is for the tonnage.

In a fair discussion, one would also have to admit that the Orion is kinda bad-ish even by median-line standards. It's plagued with awkward numbers of poorly-placed hardpoints and does not have the best geometry ever conceived by man. It's not awful, but it's certainly no poor-man's-Atlas the way it's been described in lore so often.

If you want to compare the Timber Wolf to the Spheroid side, I'd go for comparing the Timber Wolf in specific roles to Spheroid 'Mechs that do the same thing, or alternatively to Spheroid 'Mechs which come as close as possible to having the same impact on a match. Currently that's Quirkerbolts and the occasional JagerMech. Firepower-wise? I'd usually call it a wash. Quirkerbolts following their quirks can outshoot most anything in the game that isn't a Whale or a Krab, and I've always told people their geometry wasn't as bad as all that. They also tend to have pretty good hardpoint locations. I'll admit that I was quite surprised when I saw the Thuds in the T5 section of Piranha's tier lists. They weren't amazing, but they sure as shootin' weren't that awful.

Orions, on the other hand? Well...

The real issue is mostly the CXL. Without the CXL nobody would give a rat about the Timber Wolf - oh, it'd still be faster'n all get-out and carry sufficient firepower to be all angry and stuff, but it would also be pretty fragile once the armor was breached. That's the main reason I'm not fighting the impending CXL nerfs, honestly - it's one of the few things I can see that's a fair and justified penalty to the Timber Wolf, which is in need of some fair and justified penalties. The recent jump jet animation fixes and the impending CXL nerf both (will) have taken big bites out of the machine's previously godlike ability to tank fire. In the face of so many Spheroid megaquirks, we can hope it will be enough though I personally somewhat doubt it.

But trying to convince someone that the Orion is the mark all 75-ton 'Mechs should hit and thusly that the TBR needs to be whacked down to the Orion's level...well, I don't know many pilots in this game who wouldn't take just about any other Spheroid heavy over an Orion. I know for a fact I'd rather run my Dragons than an Orion, even if I had mastered Orions to pit against my mastered Dragons. The Dragon spots both 'Mechs fifteen tons and has the grandpappy of all beer guts, but at least it can move, and it has a couple of well-placed hardpoints to hang an armament on.

xImmortalx, on 14 April 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

I'm at an impasse. I love the TDR's looks and the excellent-for-an-IS-mech loadouts it can run but the TBR is just so much fun to drive. Same for the SCR. I was grinding elites for the SCR this weekend and that mech is just a joy to drive. Unlike most IS mechs, these two never feel like they're fighting you. You just ask them nicely and they do what you want them to.

I know! I adore my Stormcrows, and I honestly feel like those should be the mark to which all other mediums should strive to compare themselves. Mostly for that exact reason - the things are so deliciously nimble and responsive, they're just a blast to fly. I know the TBR needs adjustments, but I'm horribly afraid of the Stormcrow being tarred with the same brush and getting VTR Giganerfed even though it is objectively not as bad off as the Timber Wolf. The TBR is a Tier 0 god machine, but I continue to argue that the Stormcrow (in public queue, at least, and I don't give a flap for what the CW folks think so nyah ) isn't so much overpowered as it is simply the pinnacle of what a medium 'Mech can be.

Maybe - maybe - rein in its twist arcs a bit, but even that much just hurts to say. I love my Stormcrows so very much and do not wish for Piranha to spread peanut butter all over its actuators just because CW folks hate mediums that can actually fight Q_Q

[Clint Steel]

It is better than most Mechs, but ya, I think it's OPness is exaggerated. It should be considered a Tier one mech along with the Stormcrow, and all other Mechs balanced accordingly.

[Fate 6]

What's scary about it? Gauss+5med. No significant heat issues.

[Johnny Z]

Suko, on 14 April 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

I genuinely want to know. What's so scary about it?

I can agree that it's a very capable mech. However, I can't say it makes me hesitate on the battlefield. I don't see a Thor, Loki and Mad Cat and decide to avoid the Mad Cat. They're all equally dangerous opponents. Yes, the Twolf can carry more weapons than the Summoner, but Clan mechs have heat issues, and after two alphas, most Twolfs are nearly at their shutdown limit. Conversely, the Loki and Thor seem to be capable of much more sustained fire in a brawl.

I've been playing this game for years, so perhaps I have more "terrors" to calibrate it against. 6 PPC stalkers? Yeah...they made my butt clench. Remember Splat Cats? If you didn't kill it at range, you were a guaranteed dead man. Or how about the whacky antics of the Raven 3L during the heyday of ECM? In my opinion, ALL of those mechs were WAY more frightening than any Mad Cat has ever been to me.

I often play the Twolf when I'm running Clan, but I also use the Catapult with a mixed loadout when I play IS. I'm sure many will agree that the 'Pult is not considered a META MECH and I can almost always 1v1 a Twolf, if not another mech after that. And the 'Pult is 10 tons LESS than the Twolf. My lancemate plays his Thor and does very well in it. It works well for him, like the Catapult works for me. Just because a mech isn't the "meta players choice" doesn't mean it's a bad mech.

I just want to know: why so much fear for the Twolf? I just don't get it. Just because it's good on paper doesn't mean it works great for all pilots out in the field.

You can 1 v 1 a madcat in a catapult because no good pilot would lower himself to pilot a madcat. Try fighting a good pilot in a madcat.

I wouldnt pilot one because easy mode isnt my style. Most other good pilots to.

Maybe when the top 3 or 4 Omni mechs get nerfed their pilots can have some self respect again. Until then pilot them in shame.