102 replies to this topic

[Brunhin Graywind]

lol Hunchback as a scout...

maybe a Steiner Ultra Light Scout (at least if they came out with the HBK-5S variant, which I would be eternally happy with btw)

As for tactics, I have one thing to say, Terrain is your Friend, because unless you replace that AC/20 with something with range, you are gonna want to be close enough to spit on them before you shoot it, and that can mean getting chewed while coming into range if facing Dragons, Cataphracts, Awesomes, or Atlases

[Verkorperung]

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but the gauss has better damage over time. 1 ton of gauss does 120 dam, while 1 ton of A/C 20 does 100 dam. Add that to low heat and longer range, it makes the gauss that much more attractive.

[Cid]

Glythe, on 02 July 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

Take a minute to watch the medium dev breakdown movie again as it focuses on the Hunchback. Firing the AC 20 once brings your heat up to 20% and firing all 3 lasers brings your heat up to 35% total. That being said look at the differences in damage (based on the table top numbers). The autocannon 20 is 20 damage per shot, 7 heat and has 5 shots per ton of ammunition. You get 2 medium lasers which are listed as 3 heat 5 damage (note that lasers have infinite ammunition) and one small laser which is 1 heat and 3 damage. It is important to note as well that medium lasers (and the autocannon) have a range of 0 to 9 but the small laser has a range of 0 to 3 meaning it is probably only useful at very close range. If I recall each number distance reflects 30m which would suggest that small lasers no longer deal damage past 100m but that is just theory talk. Let's remind ourselves that in the video the autocannon's heat is more than all of the lasers so they are tweaking things. As one last note the videos show that all armor values have been doubled; the more than doubling of the AC 20's heat value may indicate that weapons with limited ammunition are doing double damage (and double heat). The cycle time on the Autocannon 20 is five seconds by the way so if you don't bring extra ammunition you could be out of ammo for your best weapon in under a minute!

To be perfectly honest the first thing I would do with the Hunchback is ditch the small laser and pack extra AC 20 ammunition. That will only lower lower your damage to 30 and give you enough shots to actually use the AC 20 for a while. That would give you 15 shots with the AC instead of 10 and should help you run a little cooler. I noticed immediately how hot the hunchback runs in the medium dev breakdown video. In case you are wondering the Hunchback seems to have 13 heatsinks by default.

Another variant that might be interesting is to go with 4 small lasers, the AC 20 and extra AC 20 ammunition. Each arm apparently has 3 laser hardpoints and the right torso has 3 ballistic hardpoints. You could do something crazy like 6 flamers and 3 machine guns (with lots of extra ammunition) although your weapons would all be base 3 range so I hope you're using the extra light engine with some speed modifications!

Wouldn't it be a lot smarter as a hunchback to go after Founders catapults instead of Mr. Atlas?
Granted the catapult is faster than you and has jumpjets but you've got a lot of armor and an AC 20 that would really like to say hello! You would have the firepower advantage in the hunchback with 33 damage per solvo vs his 20 damage per solvo.

Another option would be to stay in escort range of a friendly Atlas (something like a 100m circle perimiter). You would keep him safe from would be scout assassins and he'll keep you safe from just about everything.

Another option would be to escort your catapult. Assuming the Atlas was leading the charge with the hunchback/catapult in tow you could stay about 200m between your two friends. Whichever one needs you the most gets your full attention.

One problem I see a lot of people do in WoT is play a medium like a heavy tank (because that's all they are used to playing). The short version is that it fails miserably. Get creative and I think you'll find an amazing setup for your Hunchback that works for you!

good ideas, may i ask some questions?

-if i remeber correctly AC-20 was always on 7 heat, or has that been changed?

-wouldn't doubling the damage on an AC-20 defeat the purpose of doubling armor in the first place to make the fights last longer?
i mean, the AC-20 is the most damaging weapon there is for targeted single location damage, and it has the best one-shot capability (headshot), so i would asume armor has been doubled to prevent one-shots (or one salvo kills like tripple ppc), especially from that AC-20?

-removing the small laser gives you 0.5t which wouldn't translate into any more ammo for the AC-20, right?

[Glythe]

But remember the Gauss rifle has a minimum range of 2 in the table top so if you're willing to risk losing your best weapon at minimum ranges... go right ahead. At 64 kph you're really not fast enough to dictate the range of most engagements so you could easily be out gunned by a Jenner (who moves at 118kph) if you do chose to take the Gauss rifle.

[Schtirlitz]

Either gel alot of range weapons or utilize hit and run tactics.

[Verkorperung]

Glythe, on 02 July 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

But remember the Gauss rifle has a minimum range of 2 in the table top so if you're willing to risk losing your best weapon at minimum ranges... go right ahead. At 64 kph you're really not fast enough to dictate the range of most engagements so you could easily be out gunned by a Jenner (who moves at 118kph) if you do chose to take the Gauss rifle.

A valid point. However, if you remove the heatsinks and add 2 more med lasers, it runs a bit hot, but should be doable...I think a Hunchie would have a problem with a Jenner simply because of the speed difference anyway.

Out of the gate there are many ways to mod the Hunchback, but everything is going to be a tradeoff.

[Glythe]

Cid, on 02 July 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

good ideas, may i ask some questions?

-if i remeber correctly AC-20 was always on 7 heat, or has that been changed?

-wouldn't doubling the damage on an AC-20 defeat the purpose of doubling armor in the first place to make the fights last longer?
i mean, the AC-20 is the most damaging weapon there is for targeted single location damage, and it has the best one-shot capability (headshot), so i would asume armor has been doubled to prevent one-shots (or one salvo kills like tripple ppc), especially from that AC-20?

-removing the small laser gives you 0.5t which wouldn't translate into any more ammo for the AC-20, right?

Yep the AC 20 should have 7 heat... but when he fires the AC 20 in the video his heat goes up to 20 which is more than double what you would expect. But I might be reading into something that isn't there.... it might simply take 35 heat units to shut down a hunchback. If that is the case then the mech cools down 5 heat units in the time that it fires its autocannon and all of its lasers (which is some strange math considering the default version has 13 heatsinks).

Doubling ballistic damage and doubling armor doesn't have a canceling out effect. Lasers get left out in the damage department and all your ballistic ammunition is much more valuable. Carrying more ammo so that you can keep using ballistic weapons means there is a greater chance someone is going to shoot you and blow up all that ammunition you are carrying with a lucky hit (after they have chewed through all your armor). I don't think you can make ballistic weapon boats due to the weight that would be required so this makes sense when you think about balance. The autocannon 20 uses up 10 free critical slots and weighs 14 tons. Assuming you had a mech that could support the weight and the hardpoints you'd still be using up a lot of space to store ammunition.

If ballistic damage and armor are both doubled it means that you'll be doing 'normal' damage as long as your ammunition holds. This means that even mechs like the Atlas with lots of weapons/space will eventually run out of ammunition. At that point you'll be forced to use lasers if you've been doing a lot of front line fighting. Maybe that is the intent so that one really good player can't possibly mow down half the team by himself?

As for the .5 ton difference.... in the TT you can just take off .5 tons of armor from your legs to make up the weight difference.

Edited by Glythe, 02 July 2012 - 09:40 AM.

[Darq]

I picture the rolls of a Lance as:

• A Scout (to find the bad guys and light um up for the long range support)
  
• Long Range Support (Rain hell on whatever the scout finds / bad guys hiding around corners)
  
• Assault (Kill bad guys)
  
• Medium Security (Keep the bad guys scouts from lighting up YOUR friends and keep more manueverable Mechs off the back sides of the Assault / Long Range Support guys - this is the job I picture a Hunchback excelling in).

[Der Basilisk]

So far i found many good suggestions and ideas here.

i think i will stay with the AC/20 as the main gun because i don´t think it´s a good idea to mount a gauss rifle to try a longrange shootout with a Catapult or a Trebutchet. Instead i would increase the speed by about 30% to be as fast or even faster than most other mechs. This will make sure that i can reach the enemy before i get torn to shreds. But i don´t intend to use an xl-engine, thats too big a risk for a close range fighter like the standard Hunchback. And i think that the AC/20 is to big to install an xl-engine anyway.

Concerning the ammo, i don´t know if it will do me much good to increase it by more than one ton.The AC/20 is the prime target for any enemy so they will try to take it out fast.And because of its imens size, almost any critical hit to the right torso will take it out. So i would rather add some more lasers or a beagle probe.

Well, thats the idea. Let´s see, what happens once we get started. Reality tends to hit me right between the eyes.

Edited by Der Basilisk, 02 July 2012 - 09:47 AM.

[CmdrSpider]

All mechs in a lance have roles and each mechwarrior has the opportunity to decide what role he will chose to advance in. So your Hunchie is to slow for a scout unless you modify it and really to small to work as a command unit. So your most likey choices are attacker or defender. Waiting on another mech to show up and be caught off guard (i.e. you laid a trap for them) is very dependant upon the map and you guessing correctly where the enemy will approach from. Nothing worse than laying the trap only to find their entire lance came together and now your all alone. As an attacker you should always work as a part of your lance and then use your strenghts to your advantage (i.e. AC20 close range preferably in the back). Learning to coordinate your attack will take time and practice. Learn what works for you and your lance and don't be afraid to change tactics if something isn't working.

Living the Victory,

CmdrSpider

Edited by CmdrSpider, 02 July 2012 - 09:52 AM.

[Glythe]

Verkorperung, on 02 July 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

A valid point. However, if you remove the heatsinks and add 2 more med lasers, it runs a bit hot, but should be doable...I think a Hunchie would have a problem with a Jenner simply because of the speed difference anyway.

Did you see in the dev video breakdown that 2 medium lasers and a small laser brought the hunchback's heat to 16 per shot? Also notice that the hunchback cools down 1% per second. And you want to make him run hotter by adding 2 medium lasers and removing 2 heatsinks? What's the point there as you get to fire about twice and then you gotta wait a long time before shooting again or risk overheating.

The whole reason for double armor is to prevent boating. If you run a hot setup like that in a slow mech (the only thing slower is an Assault mech) you're going to get eaten by anyone who is around your speed and has a balanced heat setup.

[FrodoBagginsYoAzz]

Jawbreaker6, on 02 July 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

All tactics are 50/50, especially in a video game environment (no true death to worry about breeds apathy.}

Potentially interesting if there were different penalties based on pilot death in a match. If your pilot "dies" there are XP penalties for subsequent matches? Might lead to more conservative play or ejecting out of the mech when you might otherwise ride it down.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Glythe, on 02 July 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

But remember the Gauss rifle has a minimum range of 2 in the table top so if you're willing to risk losing your best weapon at minimum ranges... go right ahead. At 64 kph you're really not fast enough to dictate the range of most engagements so you could easily be out gunned by a Jenner (who moves at 118kph) if you do chose to take the Gauss rifle.

They've taken out the minimum range for AC's and Gauss Rifles as they couldn't come up with a plausible explanation for shells not existing until 60m from the muzzle :0

[Namwons]

A lot of people choosing Catapult and Atlas is good for me, as I will be there eyes and ears. I chose Jenner modded with Narc

[Grendel408]

friendlyfyre77, on 02 July 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

From a poll I saw here it looks like a large majority picked either an Atlas or a Catapult. I picked a Hunchback. I figured it would be the most versatile option. Now it looks like most of the opposing lances will be a swarm of missile boats or assault armor. With a straight in run I'll be torn apart What tactics should I adopt? I was thinking one role would be the base bouncer. I sit in a corner and power down waiting for a light mech to try and get a quick steal. Can I throw a ECM on my mech to make me less vulnerable to missiles? How do I fight a 'Pult, an Atlas? Should I try an end run and try to take their base and kill their scouts?

Drop the AC/20 for an AC/10... increase your ammo by 2 tons (total for 30 rounds), add armor, add heatsinks... enjoy Good support 'Mech for Assaults or Base Defender... In the Forest Colony, or the Frozen City map I would advise that you use cover for maximum effect to hit and fade while supporting your team... don't over-extend and find yourself cut-off from support. I'm sure other variants of the HBK will be available, but everyone will find their on niche in the game as to what they are good and bad at...

[Verkorperung]

Glythe, on 02 July 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

Did you see in the dev video breakdown that 2 medium lasers and a small laser brought the hunchback's heat to 16 per shot? Also notice that the hunchback cools down 1% per second. And you want to make him run hotter by adding 2 medium lasers and removing 2 heatsinks? What's the point there as you get to fire about twice and then you gotta wait a long time before shooting again or risk overheating.

The whole reason for double armor is to prevent boating. If you run a hot setup like that in a slow mech (the only thing slower is an Assault mech) you're going to get eaten by anyone who is around your speed and has a balanced heat setup.

I was thinking of double heatsinks when I typed that, but I see that I neglected to put that piece of info in.

[Grendel408]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 02 July 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

They've taken out the minimum range for AC's and Gauss Rifles as they couldn't come up with a plausible explanation for shells not existing until 60m from the muzzle :0

Correct... basically the farther the target the less damage the higher caliber round is going to do, much like the energy weapons... I think LRMs will just sputter out if trying to reach a target outside the maximum range.

[Sean Casey]

Minimum range wasn't a "can't shoot within this range" it was a "+" modify on the to hit roll. I think the idea was that the longer range weapons had a longer barrel that makes them more difficult or slower to aim in tight ranges. Think of it like shooting a rifle vs. a hand gun at a moving target at close range. The end of the barrel has to travel more distance for the same arc of movement thus becoming more difficult to aim. So in a real time game there should be no "minimum range" on any weapon but some weapons should be more difficult to aim (great divergence from the aiming recticule at close range perhaps? a skilled pilot will learn to adjust for it). No clue how it works in game as is, but it seems like it would be the most natural adaptation for the TT rules.

As far as the heat, remember each turn in TT was over a period of time (10 seconds), so 7 heat is the not the peak heat generated and instead average of heat generated over 10 seconds. So based on that I would guess that auto-shutdown wont occur right at 30 heat, but whenever average heat would be more than 30 over a 10 second period (if you knew the heat disipation rate a mech then you could actually figure out where shutdown would occur if they stick the TT formula).

Edited by Sean Casey, 02 July 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[Wildcat]

skamage, on 02 July 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

Teamwork....be smart, use terrain, keep behind them, and stay out of predictable patterns.

Pretty much this, as with some other Games Teamwork will be needed to bring down the Big Boys & Girls

[Iron Horse]

Darq, on 02 July 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

I picture the rolls of a Lance as:

• A Scout (to find the bad guys and light um up for the long range support)
  
• Long Range Support (Rain hell on whatever the scout finds / bad guys hiding around corners)
  
• Assault (Kill bad guys)
  
• Medium Security (Keep the bad guys scouts from lighting up YOUR friends and keep more manueverable Mechs off the back sides of the Assault / Long Range Support guys - this is the job I picture a Hunchback excelling in).

Very interesting. I was wondering if some players had ideas about lance compositions. Since I only played TT a couple of times I never really got that deep into the strategy. This may be the greatest advantage TTers enjoy over VGers at launch. Also, I don't think this will be in at launch, but it would be interesting if there were areas in the lobby to organize balanced lances before trying to join a match. This could make it very interesting IMHO!