169 replies to this topic

[STEF_]

Gyrok, on 20 April 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:

Reworking ECM requires reworking all the systems it impacts...

(short answer: NO!)

As for ECM and doritos, etc. Well, you must not have ever played with angel ECM and stealth armor. That is essentially what we have at the moment...with slightly modified rules.

Is it actually Guardian ECM? No...it is not...it most closely resembles Angel ECM.

I say leave it alone as it is...

I've played Bt that's why I posted "I like BT more".
As you know, we are going to have 4 more chassis with ECM, so prolly, we'll see A LOT of ecm mechs on the battlefield. Also 12 ecm mechs vs 12 ecm mechs. I find this weird.
Beside, can you recall BT scenarios or campaign with such a uber number of ecm on the fields? Because I cannot.

And, are you sure to have played BT? Because "As for ECM and doritos, etc. Well, you must not have ever played with angel ECM and stealth armor. That is essentially what we have at the moment...with slightly modified rules." sounds quite funny.
Above all, the adjective "SLIGHTLY"

You really know what ecm is in BT, right?

Edit: "Reworking ECM requires reworking all the systems it impacts"... it is just the opposite. Fake PGI Ecm has broken the rules, bra...

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 20 April 2015 - 10:34 AM.

[Mystere]

Madcap72, on 20 April 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

Would it make you happier if ECM just displayed a dozen fake targets instead, so that way the battlemap displayed a bunch of targets instead of no targets? Because that would satisfy your argument.

You know what? That is not a bad idea.

Have 1 light mech mimic the electronic signature of a lance or even an entire company, troll the enemy team to the max! Instead of blinding the enemy, make them see things.

On second thought, can I have both?

Edited by Mystere, 20 April 2015 - 10:38 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Madcap72, on 20 April 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

So after all of the counters to ECM have been described to you, you still hold the false beliefe that there will never be anything displayed on the battlemap? That's hilarious.


Would it make you happier if ECM just displayed a dozen fake targets instead, so that way the battlemap displayed a bunch of targets instead of no targets? Because that would satisfy your argument.

That is proper lore ECM. It doesn't make you disappear, it drowns you out.

Ghost targets, rather than cancel Artemis, will add a +1 to hit.

Edited by Mcgral18, 20 April 2015 - 10:40 AM.

[Gyrok]

Stefka Kerensky, on 20 April 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

I've played Bt that's why I posted "I like BT more".
As you know, we are going to have 4 more chassis with ECM, so prolly, we'll see A LOT of ecm mechs on the battlefield. Also 12 ecm mechs vs 12 ecm mechs. I find this weird.
Beside, can you recall BT scenarios or campaign with such a uber number of ecm on the fields? Because I cannot.

And, are you sure to have played BT? Because "As for ECM and doritos, etc. Well, you must not have ever played with angel ECM and stealth armor. That is essentially what we have at the moment...with slightly modified rules." sounds quite funny.
Above all, the adjective "SLIGHTLY"

You really know what ecm is in BT, right?

Edit: "Reworking ECM requires reworking all the systems it impacts"... it is just the opposite. Fake PGI Ecm has broken the rules, bra...

Yes, it is a delay in targeting as Guardian ECM.

As Angel ECM, it is literally what we have, but with the effect of either stealth yourself, or stealth around you but not on you.

[Almond Brown]

Mawai, on 17 April 2015 - 02:52 PM, said:

Maybe ECM should prevent targeting using R but not interfere with the display of mech icons on the maps. That would be consistent with preventing locks but still allow tactical and strategic play based on where the mechs are known to be.

Perhaps add in that if you get "eyes" on a ECM covered Mech (that is not the carrier), you then get to Press "R" on that Mech but, like now, have to shut off the ECM carrier to get the "R" on them.

Thus someone following a ECM carrier just doesn't get blanket coverage just because. They still have to be aware of the "Eyes in the Darkness" muhahahahaha

P.S. Then ADD C3 slave units into MWO as a weighted component that does provide "blanket "R" based ECM coverage while a Mech with slave onboard is under an ECM carriers bubble.

Edited by Almond Brown, 20 April 2015 - 11:15 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Mystere, on 17 April 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

Stealth >>> Target Info

Great if you're the ECM carrier. Otherwise, Stealth >>> Clusters meant to be Arty'd.

Stefka Kerensky, on 17 April 2015 - 10:36 PM, said:

Because having 12 ecm mech vs 12 ecm mech (that will happen in near future) is stupid.

It would not be very much different from having 12 Passive Radars vs 12 Passive radars. Unlike passive Radars, ECM can be shot off the enemy Mechs, Passive radar systems, not so much iirc.

[STEF_]

Almond Brown, on 20 April 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

Great if you're the ECM carrier. Otherwise, Stealth >>> Clusters meant to be Arty'd.



It would not be very much different from having 12 Passive Radars vs 12 Passive radars. Unlike passive Radars, ECM can be shot off the enemy Mechs, Passive radar systems, not so much iirc.

Aaaaaaahhhh, this reminds me one of my fav thread!
I like to read.
http://mwomercs.com/...cm-and-sensors/

This system would be freaking awesome.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 20 April 2015 - 11:37 AM.

[Madcap72]

JaxRiot, on 20 April 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

I dont mean to sound rude but I get the feeling that you are purposely going to extremes in order to try to trivialize what people are trying to say here.

The truth is that ECM is out of whack. It does too much even passively for the small amount of resources it requires.

For 2 slots and 1.5 tons (1 slot and 1 ton for clan) you get an item that removes a player from the radar and cant even be targeted (by pressing R) unless they are within 200m allowing for sneak alpha attacks. Greatly hinders Target Locks. Bypasses all objects and terrain. Actually counters equipment that is made to counter ECM. Grants nearby allies with the exact same benefits as if they had ECM equipped themselves. And it does all this stuff Passively requiring no effort on the part of the player while generating zero heat and requiring zero ammo.

As for these Counters:

Narc weighs 3 tons and takes 2 slots not counting ammo. If you just go with one ton of ammo, then you just invested 4 tons, a missile slot and 2 crit slots in to try and counter One ECM. Narc also requires line of sight and imo has a very slow projectile speed making it very inaccurate. Plus if there is another enemy ECM close by (which is very likely and will become even more likey as more and more ECM capable mechs become available) then the Narc itself is canceled.

BAP is good. 1 ton and 1 slot. But it only cancels one ECM and if the ECM being canceled is under the umbrella of another ECM (again, very likely and will become even more likely in the future) then BAP is actually canceled.

TAG is really only good for LRMs, but requires Line of Sight, activation, And a lock before even one missile can be fired. Better off to bring pew pew and bang bangs. They would be more effecint.

UAV helps but it is highly localized. Only lasts for 45 seconds, and can be destroyed by a whopping 10 points of damage, has a one time use per map, does not stop ECMs target lock hindrances and actually costs 40,000 c-bills to use. This one just seems crazy to me. 40,000 c-bills per map to try to counter something that functions passively.

So the more and more ECM that will be added to the game will make these counters and the radar less and less effective. And they will do all of this passively while generating zero heat, and requiring zero ammo.

ECM is just simply too strong for what it is right now.

Cheers

Jax

ECM works perfectly, it is a measure that electronically counters electrical targeting systems... The only "problem" is it doesnt work in a manner that is nostolgic enough. It works more like real life ECM.

You forgot the other counters to ECM as well such as teamwork focus firing on ID'd ecm mechs,

Or, one of the other main ECM counters, ECM. Which hilariously means that the OP's entire fictional scenario of "12ecm vs 12ecm" battles could be negated simply by 6 mechs per side swithing to counter...

ECM in the game as implimented is NOT stronger than a persons ability to adapt and develop tactics to overcome it.

The ONLY strength ECM has is that people are more worried about how to change ECM instead of developing tactics and strategies to work around it, and marginalize it's use.

ECM doesn't do much more than good use of cover and concealment. It really doesn't. In fact, it does less in the sense that people can get over confident and expose themselves where a good player wihtout ECM wouldn't.

Every single "problem" that's been put forth in this thread has MULTIPLE souloutions. Once again, mostly centered around critical thinking and the application of teamwork.

[STEF_]

Madcap72, on 20 April 2015 - 10:11 PM, said:

ECM works perfectly, it is a measure that electronically counters electrical targeting systems... The only "problem" is it doesnt work in a manner that is nostolgic enough. It works more like real life ECM.

You forgot the other counters to ECM as well such as teamwork focus firing on ID'd ecm mechs,

Or, one of the other main ECM counters, ECM. Which hilariously means that the OP's entire fictional scenario of "12ecm vs 12ecm" battles could be negated simply by 6 mechs per side swithing to counter...

ECM in the game as implimented is NOT stronger than a persons ability to adapt and develop tactics to overcome it.

The ONLY strength ECM has is that people are more worried about how to change ECM instead of developing tactics and strategies to work around it, and marginalize it's use.

ECM doesn't do much more than good use of cover and concealment. It really doesn't. In fact, it does less in the sense that people can get over confident and expose themselves where a good player wihtout ECM wouldn't.

Every single "problem" that's been put forth in this thread has MULTIPLE souloutions. Once again, mostly centered around critical thinking and the application of teamwork.

your blablabla talking about your dear Jesus is very moving, touching and emotional.

As you already stated many many times your opinion, all we can know it. As previously said, irepeating you opinion is becoming boring, also because impling that those ones who don't like ecm mechanics, it's because they know nothing, don't know teamwork, don't know < fill with whatever you want>. ( so arrogant, too)

Edit: Thanks for partecipation.
goodbye.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 20 April 2015 - 10:45 PM.

[627]

ECM should have the same "value" like a bap, shouldn't be a must have item.

Easy bandaid fix could be:

• No stealth - if a mech is in sensor range, there should be the red target designator
  
• No jamming - if you are inside an enemy ECM bubble, you team mates can still see your target like normal
  
• delayed target info gathering - the opposite of BAP, takes [25%] more time to see info
  
• delayed missile lock times - like target info, just takes a bit longer

and done. Not more.
We could talk about a reduced sensor range (so you have to be within 600m instead of 800m to get the dorito) but that shouldn't be necessary.

Edited by 627, 20 April 2015 - 11:01 PM.

[Deathlike]

627, on 20 April 2015 - 11:01 PM, said:

• delayed target info gathering - the opposite of BAP, takes [25%] more time to see info
  
• delayed missile lock times - like target info, just takes a bit longer

Well, ECM already does that... not that anyone notices this.

[627]

Deathlike, on 21 April 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:

Well, ECM already does that... not that anyone notices this.

I know, but imho that should be the primary use of it, not stealthing everyone and his mom

[Madcap72]

The real question is, when will we get "enhanced imaging" like in the cartoon?

[STEF_]

Guess what happened here.

very, balanced match, gg close, right?




Avoid idiotic comments like "blue team should have choose some ecm mech....l2p"....
Because this is pugville. And because vs UBER quantity of ecm mech, a team MUST choose an uber quantity of ecm mech.

Someone here said that "ain't going to happen, blablaBLSA, BLABLAbla"

Let's see with cheetha, shadowcat, and black knight coming.... here a balanced match should have 5 ecm mech vs 5 ecm mechs.

A paradise game for ecm fan boyz... crap game for serious players.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 22 April 2015 - 05:54 AM.

[JaxRiot]

Madcap72, on 20 April 2015 - 10:11 PM, said:

ECM works perfectly, it is a measure that electronically counters electrical targeting systems... The only "problem" is it doesnt work in a manner that is nostolgic enough. It works more like real life ECM.

You forgot the other counters to ECM as well such as teamwork focus firing on ID'd ecm mechs,

Or, one of the other main ECM counters, ECM. Which hilariously means that the OP's entire fictional scenario of "12ecm vs 12ecm" battles could be negated simply by 6 mechs per side swithing to counter...

ECM in the game as implimented is NOT stronger than a persons ability to adapt and develop tactics to overcome it.

The ONLY strength ECM has is that people are more worried about how to change ECM instead of developing tactics and strategies to work around it, and marginalize it's use.

ECM doesn't do much more than good use of cover and concealment. It really doesn't. In fact, it does less in the sense that people can get over confident and expose themselves where a good player wihtout ECM wouldn't.

Every single "problem" that's been put forth in this thread has MULTIPLE souloutions. Once again, mostly centered around critical thinking and the application of teamwork.

Ah yes you're right. I forgot to mention that ECM can cancel ECM. Guess we can add that to the already impressive list of things that an item that only requires 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots (1 ton and crit for clan) can do while generating no heat or requiring no ammo that ECM can do.

But without trying to disrespect, can you see what even you yourself is saying?

"Im going to equip this item that does all these things passively, that generates no heat, requires no ammo, and all I have to do is have it equipped to gain all of its benefits as well as its ability to grant my near by team mates the exact same benefits, yet it is easily countered as long as you put forth efforts. All you have to do is develop tactics to counter my passive little box that requires me to do nothing for it to function. All you is develop strategies and adapt to my effortless box"

Can you not see whats happening? These tactics and strategies are already in the game. They are things like NARC and BAP, but they are getting less and less effective because of ECMs abundance (and getting ever more abundant) and their blanket coverage abilities actually cancelling them out instead.

If things keep going the way that they are with PGI adding ever more ECM to the game, there will come a time when NARC, BAP, LRM (and by default TAG) will be a thing of the past because there will be so much ECM on the field that they will be rendered near uselessness and MWO will be nothing more than peek-a-boo matches with the Radar being there only to see where your team mates are. Isnt that what Hawken and Call of Duty is?

Edited by JaxRiot, 22 April 2015 - 07:08 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

It works more like real life ECM.

Except it doesnt work anything like real life. Real life ECM doesnt give an aircraft and all his squadron buddies stealth. ECM does not reduce radar cross-sections. Only stealth technology does that. In real life ECM is used as a complement to stealth technology (which is why the null signature system in battletech includes an integrated ECM).

ECM in real life is primarily used as defense against missiles using various techniques like ghost signatures, blip enhancement, jamming, etc. So if ECM in MWO was "more like real life" then it would increase lock-on time, and perhaps make it harder for missiles to track, but it still would not grant stealth.

Edited by Khobai, 22 April 2015 - 08:01 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Deathlike, on 17 April 2015 - 12:15 AM, said:

Remember that secret committee used to address ECM?

Remember that player council?

Khobai, on 22 April 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

Except it doesnt. Real life ECM doesnt give an aircraft and all his squadron buddies stealth.

Hell ir doesnt even work like BT ECM. Guardian shouldnt break missile lock, thats Angel

JaxRiot, on 22 April 2015 - 07:07 AM, said:

Ah yes you're right. I forgot to mention that ECM can cancel ECM. Guess we can add that to the already impressive list of things that an item that only requires 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots (1 ton and crit for clan) can do while generating no heat or requiring no ammo that ECM can do.

But without trying to disrespect, can you see what even you yourself is saying?

"Im going to equip this item that does all these things passively, that generates no heat, requires no ammo, and all I have to do is have it equipped to gain all of its benefits as well as its ability to grant my near by team mates the exact same benefits, yet it is easily countered as long as you put forth efforts. All you have to do is develop tactics to counter my passive little box that requires me to do nothing for it to function. All you is develop strategies and adapt to my effortless box"

Can you not see whats happening? These tactics and strategies are already in the game. They are things like NARC and BAP, but they are getting less and less effective because of ECMs abundance (and getting ever more abundant) and their blanket coverage abilities actually cancelling them out instead.

If things keep going the way that they are with PGI adding ever more ECM to the game, there will come a time when NARC, BAP, LRM (and by default TAG) will be a thing of the past because there will be so much ECM on the field that they will be rendered near uselessness and MWO will be nothing more than peek-a-boo matches with the Radar being there only to see where your team mates are. Isnt that what Hawken and Call of Duty is?

Why do you think laser vomit is a thing?

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 22 April 2015 - 07:27 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Stefka Kerensky, on 22 April 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

Guess what happened here.

very, balanced match, gg close, right?




Avoid idiotic comments like "blue team should have choose some ecm mech....l2p"....

Yeah, that would reek of prejudice and is pretty narrrow-minded.

Stefka Kerensky, on 22 April 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

Because this is pugville.

Now...now...life can be sarcastic (see above)

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

I kinda think the matchmaker should add an ecm to each side or balance it out at least.

[Khobai]

Quote

Hell ir doesnt even work like BT ECM. Guardian shouldnt break missile lock, thats Angel

Truth be told Guardian ECM in tabletop is pretty damn useless.

I'm perfectly fine with Guardian ECM having some anti-missile abilities like increasing lock-on time and/or decreasing missile tracking.

And since we currently dont have other stealth equipment in the game I would be okay with ECM only giving stealth to the mech its equipped on too. But as soon as we get other equipment that provides stealth that ability should be removed off ECM.