102 replies to this topic

[Barantor]

Anjian, on 18 April 2015 - 11:00 PM, said:

Low slung arms is just trouble for this game because it means you are going just going to hit the environment. The geometry sensitive maps means to be competive you need high torso mounts, yet those long arms are the visual trademark for the Marauder. Its going to mean a lot of legal hassle for a design that will inevitably piss players off in Community Warfare.

Sometimes I feel the Macross designs need to be forgotten totally. These are mech designs for a universe that works totally differently from Battletech, and functionally doesn't fit in its theme. The Marauder is a Zentraedi Battlepod, its not even a mech, more of an exosuit or vehicle for an alien giant. It also flies in space. The Phoenix Hawk, Wasp, Stingers are based on Valkryies, which transform into F-14 like planes and fly in air and space. Warhammer and Rifleman were AA defense mechs aboard the SDF Macross.

In contrast Battletech is much more closer, almost completely aligned with the Dougram series --- all terrestial, mechs meant to be realistic, battles over political dominance and intrigue. This series is where the Battlemaster, Shadowhawk, Thunderbolt, Wolverine and Griffin comes from. Chunky, squarish, industrial, with shoulder weapons and rocket packs on the shoulders. As Battletech moved from copying mecha from Japanese anime to its own design IP, the original designs started to reflect more on the Dougram heritage than on Macross, and subsequently that is how it all went.

Dougram introduced characteristic features that are now signature traits in Battletech, like framed cockpits, shoulder and forearm mounted weapons. A science fiction universe has to set some design rules which must be followed. In Star Trek for example, the ships must have an even (not odd) number of engine nacelles and the nacelles must have a clear unobstructed view of the front (since they suck in cosmic particles and are converted to energy via antimatter reaction).

1 nacelle... http://memory-beta.w...i/Saladin_class

Funny thing is, as I have pointed out in other threads, the designs for many of these mechs exist in current mechs in MWO itself.

Marauder - Mad Cat (literally named because the computer couldn't decide if it was a Marauder MAD or a Catapult CAT) as well as the Catapult itself being very similar.

Rifleman - Jagermech... it is almost a clone.

Warhammer - The Loki is basically the clan version of the Warhammer in much the same way that the Madcat is the combo of the Marauder and Catapult.

Design wise all the pieces are already in MWO it is just that PGI is afraid of lawsuits because of the past.

[CDLord HHGD]

Barantor, on 20 April 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

1 nacelle... http://memory-beta.w...i/Saladin_class

Unfortunately that class is not canon (HUGE Trekkie btw, so forgive if I geek out).

One of the best damn resources for Trek.

[Metus regem]

cdlord, on 20 April 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

Unfortunately that class is not canon (HUGE Trekkie btw, so forgive if I geek out).

One of the best damn resources for Trek.

The Saladin consisted of a saucer section and nacelle, each similar in exterior design to that of a Constitution-class vessel of the 2260s. Its configuration was significantly different, however, as it employed only a single nacelle. (Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan; Star Trek III: The Search for Spock)


The Saladin-class starship was a design originally created by Franz Joseph in his Star Fleet Technical Manual, which lists the USS Saladin as the prototype of the class. The production staff of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan and Star Trek III: The Search for Spock used some of the ships in the Technical Manual as background display images looped on monitor screens on the bridge.

According to the Star Fleet Technical Manual, the only difference between the Hermes-class scout and her sister class, the Saladin-class destroyer, were her armaments and personnel. Where the Saladin-class housed three phaser banks and two photon torpedo launchers, the Hermes scout only housed one bank of two phasers, and the Saladin-class had a slightly bigger crew.

Intended to be merely background decoration, freeze frames and close examination have shown it likely (but not conclusively) that the images used were taken from the Joseph book with little or no modification. This was confirmed later by Rick Sternbach on a few occasions on TrekBBS.com's forums.

Source:

http://en.memory-alp...i/Saladin_class

I'd say, since she made it on screen several times, in movies and DS9, she's cannon.

[Barantor]

cdlord, on 20 April 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

Unfortunately that class is not canon (HUGE Trekkie btw, so forgive if I geek out).

One of the best damn resources for Trek.

Meh, I'm no super trekkie, I just remember there being a single nacelle ship in the movie and in a book.



I guess the books aren't canon in Star Wars EU now, so Star Trek has that for the movies?

[CDLord HHGD]

Yeah, I know, but she wan't modeled which is why she's not canon. There was a couple exceptions though and the description indicated an extra "bump" in the nacel indicating a "doubling up" of the guts to mimic two nacells.

[Juodas Varnas]

[CDLord HHGD]

Juodas Varnas, on 20 April 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

Sorry!

Bring back all the unseens! Call it the Harmony Golds package. New emblem too:

[WarHippy]

Soul Tribunal, on 20 April 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

Tell ya what, I have figured out how to make your car Analogy work.

You and I, unless rich or Lucky will never, ever own a 1965(4 1/2) Mustang. The original. The beginning of a Era/Generation.
But, if we have $30-40K we can Own something that now with some retro redesign has the same proper Pedigree and feel of what the Mustang should be.

It isn't mine but I do get to drive my dad's 65. Doesn't really take luck or all that much money, but I do get your point. That being said while we can get those retro designs they are not the original and they are not pretending to be either, however they do pay homage to the originals. Unfortunately I have my doubts that proper homage can be paid to all these HG mechs and still remain legal. That is my real problem with it. I just don't want to see something added that is in name only without respect for what came before. Alex is great, but it isn't a question of his talent it is a question of what HG will let us get away with.

Soul Tribunal, on 20 April 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

Is it not worth it, since lets face it HG Is NEVER going away to get something that is the Evolution of a Design, enough so we can actually Have it instead of it being a dream?
It would seem that the theme in this thread and many others on it is about the same. Re-seen the design and get us into some classic mechs.

The theme seems to be that they want them re-seen the designs and get us into classic mechs "so long as they feel right", but what and where that cut off is doesn't seem to get discussed and is left rather vague and nebulous. I would probably be on board for the re-seens with some examples being shown that again have been approved by HG. What I don't want to see is concept art that everyone loves only to have it axed by a cease and desist later down the road from HG.

Soul Tribunal, on 20 April 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

And I would wager that if Russ had the gumption to do a Poll, you would see the Majority of the 'Old Guard' outweighed by those of us that understand the reality of the situation and are okay with it.

-ST

Given the often crappy polls and lack of relevant information provided before one of these rare polls from the devs you are probably right.

[Elizander]

StaggerCheck, on 17 April 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

Just grab some intestinal fortitude and have Alex redesign the Mechs so that they are PGI originals and slap the name Marauder, Warhammer, Rifleman, etc. on them. I'm tired of hearing about Harmony Gold says no to this, Harmony Gold says no to that. Screw them if they can't be bothered with profit sharing. At least 99% of the population here understands the situation and the fact that the Mechs cannot resemble the Harmony Gold licenced product. Just wing it already.

They can even change the names and just hit that these mechs are 'those' models.

[Soul Tribunal]

WarHippy, on 20 April 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

It isn't mine but I do get to drive my dad's 65. Doesn't really take luck or all that much money, but I do get your point. That being said while we can get those retro designs they are not the original and they are not pretending to be either, however they do pay homage to the originals. Unfortunately I have my doubts that proper homage can be paid to all these HG mechs and still remain legal. That is my real problem with it. I just don't want to see something added that is in name only without respect for what came before. Alex is great, but it isn't a question of his talent it is a question of what HG will let us get away with.
The theme seems to be that they want them re-seen the designs and get us into classic mechs "so long as they feel right", but what and where that cut off is doesn't seem to get discussed and is left rather vague and nebulous. I would probably be on board for the re-seens with some examples being shown that again have been approved by HG. What I don't want to see is concept art that everyone loves only to have it axed by a cease and desist later down the road from HG.
Given the often crappy polls and lack of relevant information provided before one of these rare polls from the devs you are probably right.

My Fathers 69 can go on auction for up to $250K. So unless it was kept by the family (i.e See Lucky in my original Post) it is out of the realm of possibility for the most part.
Now take something that has the old fashioned Analogue Gauges, the original inspired front end (Circular Lights, similar flaring) and you still get the 'feel' without having to take out a mortgage to get it.

What we would need is a wealth of Concept Art, from the artist here to be approved and see if it gets close enough to what the community wants. PGI already stated that if they even attempted this they would be making sure money was in the Bank to Fight HG. Which is good, that takes us back to approval of concepts. I am sure they can get it to the middle ground where the majority of us approve, and HG doesn't sue.

Just like anything else there will be detractors, but it is lucritive. And regardless of what some might think, much like the Urbanmech if PGI gets financial support and hits a goal it will happen.

-ST

[LordNothing]

artistic license has allowed a lot of variation on mechs in the various mechwarrior games. for example compare the curvy raven from mwll with the boxy one from mwo for example. the two mechs are distinct enough that its hard to say that they are the same chassis. so i have no problem with that being used to make original material based on the idea of the unseen mechs, if not the original artwork.

find some concept artist with no connection to the battletech universe, hg, or mechwarrior. give them a list of written descriptions from the books, mech varient info from sarna, and show them the general style of other mechs in the game, and task them to come up with original concept art. then hand that to your art team.

[Strum Wealh]

Anjian, on 18 April 2015 - 11:00 PM, said:

In Star Trek for example, the ships must have an even (not odd) number of engine nacelles and the nacelles must have a clear unobstructed view of the front (since they suck in cosmic particles and are converted to energy via antimatter reaction).

To throw it out there, there is a three-nacelle Enterprise refit shown on-screen in the TNG episode "All Good Things...".

The Freedom-class ships (one of which is shown on-screen, partially destroyed, in the TNG episode "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II") had a single warp nacelle.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 20 April 2015 - 12:22 PM.

[Valas]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 17 April 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

You have no idea of the shitstorm the "Old Guard" would cause on the forums if they didn't use the original design...

I am a member of the "Old Guard" and my tabletop hayday was 3025-3050, and mostly with the Unseen Mechs. I personally used a modified Marauder (ditched the AC/5 for an LRM 5, more armor and heatsinks) and a Valkyrie as my go to mechs for our Merc unit fights. I would gladly see them remade. Strip the ears off a Timberwolf or Catapult, and you already have the basis for a Marauder. I have seen someone elses concept art in another post. Valkyrie, Stinger, and Wasp could share a similar model to the Panther. Archer and Crusader, are a bit redundant, we already have the Catapult, and if I recall, the Crusader has leg mounted SRM 6's. And now that I think about it, doesn't the Stinger and/or Wasp have leg mounts as well? Rifleman I could see being an issue, unless it was a heavily modified Jaeger or enlarged and modified Blackjack model. Never used them too much, too hot and too weakly armored for my taste. Time will tell I guess.

Edited by Valas, 10 May 2015 - 10:45 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Valas, on 10 May 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

I am a member of the "Old Guard" and my tabletop hayday was 3025-3050, and mostly with the Unseen Mechs. I personally used a modified Marauder (ditched the AC/5 for an LRM 5, more armor and heatsinks) and a Valkyrie as my go to mechs for our Merc unit fights. I would gladly see them remade. Strip the ears off a Timberwolf or Catapult, and you already have the basis for a Marauder. I have seen someone elses concept art in another post. Valkyrie, Stinger, and Wasp could share a similar model to the Panther. Archer and Crusader, are a bit redundant, we already have the Catapult, and if I recall, the Crusader has leg mounted SRM 6's. And now that I think about it, doesn't the Stinger and/or Wasp have leg mounts as well? Rifleman I could see being an issue, unless it was a heavily modified Jaeger or enlarged and modified Blackjack model. Never used them too much, too hot and too weakly armored for my taste. Time will tell I guess.

Any leg mount can be retrofitted to the torso.

Hell the AS7-D has rear facing CT lasers... which we just turned to fore facing in MWO.

Adjusting weapons placement isn't a huge issue.

To those saying "let the artist redesign these mechs already." Alex has already done so, seriously, go search up his art, he's already done redesigns of the Warhammer, Marauder, and Archer I'm pretty sure.

There are literally, 0 legal issues, if PGI Just uses the basic designs of the Reseen as the baseline for redesigning these mechs.

[Brody319]

>People whine when they aren't added
>People will whine when they are redesigned

so **** it, At least if they redesign they can make some money, I'd rather have totally new Redesigns rather than nothing.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Metus regem, on 17 April 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

Very true, but if you are unfamiliar with the Warhammer IIC 4, well here is an image



See how 'easy' it would be to re-use assets that are already found in game, using the parts I mentioned...

I personally think that thing is just ugly. Along with the Project Feenix Marauder. Ofc, I also think the original Marauder was to skinny and spindly. But the original Warhammer and Warhammer IIC? I thought looked amazing.

And why cant PGI change the look of that Warhammer from the MW5 video and call it good>?

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 10 May 2015 - 05:18 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 May 2015 - 05:18 PM, said:

I personally think that thing is just ugly. Along with the Project Feenix Marauder. Ofc, I also think the original Marauder was to skinny and spindly. But the original Warhammer and Warhammer IIC? I thought looked amazing.

And why cant PGI change the look of that Warhammer from the MW5 video and call it good>?

Because the MW5 WHM was what got that video CnD'd.

[R A V 3 N]

Unless I'm missing something isn't this related:



REIMAGINING THE CLASSICS

[IIIuminaughty]

Just bring out the annihilator

Edited by IIIuminaughty, 28 July 2015 - 04:07 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Yes, that is very much related.

Raven II, on 27 July 2015 - 02:24 PM, said:

Unless I'm missing something isn't this related:



REIMAGINING THE CLASSICS

The TT/Lore guys said '**** it' and redesigned some of the unseen enough where they shouldn't be liable for lawsuit anymore.



I definitely lol'd at how much the Marauder looks like this image floating around the forums.

Was this an Alex doodle?

Edited by MauttyKoray, 28 July 2015 - 05:47 PM.