41 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

This is OP, that is OP, etc.

The TW is the new Victor. At some point, (as we all clearly saw with the Victor) that will change.

Do we want the TW to end up like the Victor? A rusting relic in one of a ton of mech bays that gets looked at fondly while it sits collecting dust...

How would you propose that adjustments are made for the sake of "balance" in a game where both sides have different tech, weapon systems, chassis, and even construction rules...?

This is a blank slate to make your own idea presented.

Keep in mind, if you are looking for competitive balance. The only games that have a competitive community in large scale are games where you essentially have mirror image factions with different cosmetics. So, if you choose a sniper in CoD, regardless of which side you play for, you get the same sniper weapon options, and the same sniper gear with different camo.

(I am not advocating we go to mirror images, I am just presenting what true balance actually is...)

Edited by Gyrok, 18 April 2015 - 10:56 AM.

[Mcgral18]

I don't mind mild targeted nerfs to a problem, just don't blanket nerf the Terribad Clam chassis as a result...like they've already done twice.

[Gas Guzzler]

I think some of the competitive player base are a little upset that the two best mechs of their respective weight class (Timber Wolf and Stormcrow) are getting buffed with this new round of omni-pods coming out, while other Clan mechs sit without any real help, and IS mechs still have their niche uses (Stalker-4N is great at mid range poking, but is very sluggish, hard to position and to clumsy for a brawl, for example) but are too specialized to actually be competitive options (in a tournament or something). I am not a biased IS player making this up, the evidence is in what successful competitive teams choose to take in tournaments. Not to stroke e-peen, but see Empyreal for example.

It is a difficult problem to address. The day we see as many Timber Wolves in MWO as Highlanders or Victors now is a dark day indeed.

I only hope that these new omnipods have enough of a downside that they are not auto-take omni pods. I am holding off any judgments until I see how these things are quirked. I think these omni-pods could be quirked such that the bar is not raised on these mechs, but we will see how PGI does it.

We will see how things go. I don't want to see these mechs nerfed into the dust, but the attitude that they are inferior to certain IS mechs is a little bit ridiculous to me.

[Tarl Cabot]

Too many vectors. For the Highlander then Victor, it was about the combination of jumpjet (I use singular form cause part of that was part of the issue but after the recent townhall meeting, there is hope for those w/full set of JJS) and the ability to sync of gauss rifle and ER/PPC firing.

I do not see the TW gathering dust anytime soon for several reasons.

• Weight sweet spot at 75tons.
  
• Weapon load and ability to change it with omnipods, something that the Victor/HL did not have, nor did they have as many hardpoints and the loads were more similar to each other than not.
  
• XL survivability - Even though the engine can not be changed out, speed combined with JJs provides the maneuverability to deliver its payload while not be stuck to one area when compared to a slower, IS mech.
  
• Modeling. imho, the non-humanoid mechs tend to do better than humanoid mechs in general. Weapon placements does not have to span a tall torso, giving a more compact weapon settings.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 18 April 2015 - 11:21 AM.

[Torgun]

It doesn't end there though, now the TW will get 3 high energy hardpoints a bit above cockpit level. That just begs the question: Seriously WTF guys?! Oh yeah I forgot about the penalty for that side torso, let me guess: a massive 2.5% energy cooldown increase?

[Gas Guzzler]

Torgun, on 18 April 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

It doesn't end there though, now the TW will get 3 high energy hardpoints a bit above cockpit level. That just begs the question: Seriously WTF guys?! Oh yeah I forgot about the penalty for that side torso, let me guess: a massive 2.5% energy cooldown increase?

Maybe something like 5% heat gen increase and 5% duration increase, or something along those lines would do it.

Edit: Just for the A omnipod on the TBR and that arm on the SCR, not blanket on top of all TBRs/SCRs.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 18 April 2015 - 11:37 AM.

[Torgun]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 April 2015 - 11:37 AM, said:

Maybe something like 5% heat gen increase and 5% duration increase, or something along those lines would do it.

Edit: Just for the A omnipod on the TBR and that arm on the SCR, not blanket on top of all TBRs/SCRs.

That's not going to be enough at all considering the advantage of those hardpoints. But frankly that's still more than I expect the devs will end up with. Powercreep sells.

[Gas Guzzler]

Torgun, on 18 April 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

That's not going to be enough at all considering the advantage of those hardpoints. But frankly that's still more than I expect the devs will end up with. Powercreep sells.

Eh, maybe 10% duration increase then... huge heat gen increase would be a little rough. But that would dissuade me from taking that omnipod in some situations..

[xMintaka]

Torgun, on 18 April 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

That's not going to be enough at all considering the advantage of those hardpoints. But frankly that's still more than I expect the devs will end up with. Powercreep sells.

It will make a hell of a difference.
It won't make a difference to the peek-a-boo gameplay we have now, but if a team has enough cahones to force the TBR/SCR pilots to fight in close quarters, that extra heat generation will make the long/mid range clan mechs more specialised at exactly that rather than being great at long/mid range and decent at close range.

Edit: The above was for the heat generation. Negative duration quirks would have the same effect, but also somewhat limit their effect at long/mid range due to exposing themselves to return fire for longer.

Edited by Lunatech, 18 April 2015 - 11:44 AM.

[Torgun]

Lunatech, on 18 April 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

It will make a hell of a difference.
It won't make a difference to the peek-a-boo gameplay we have now, but if a team has enough cahones to force the TBR/SCR pilots to fight in close quarters, that extra heat generation will make the long/mid range clan mechs more specialised at exactly that rather than being great at long/mid range and decent at close range.

Edit: The above was for the heat generation. Negative duration quirks would have the same effect, but also somewhat limit their effect at long/mid range due to exposing themselves to return fire for longer.

No it won't, 5% is ridiculously small a difference. One C-ERL/C-LPL gives 10 heat. 5% on 10 heat is 10.5 heat. Also cooldown is 3.25s. with 5% penalty it's 3.41s.

Small differences are small. If I had a TW-A I'd run that torso on ASAP without a single moment of hesitation.

Edited by Torgun, 18 April 2015 - 11:50 AM.

[xMintaka]

Torgun, on 18 April 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

No it won't, 5% is ridiculously small a difference. One C-ERL/C-LPL gives 10 heat. 5% on 10 heat is 10.5 heat. Also cooldown is 3.25s. with 5% penalty it's 3.41s.

Small differences are small. If I had a TW-A I'd run that torso on ASAP without a single moment of hesitation.

We're not just talking about one weapon though, are we?

5% on 4 ERML and 2 LPL adds up. But in any case, the numbers should be subject to change. Currently the TBR will get two Alpha's before it needs to use a coolshot/cool off/alpha again and shutdown which is enough to kill most mechs if the pilot is good. If it reduces the amount of times the laser vomit build can fire before shutting down/cooling off, it's a good thing. Especially now they'll be able to do it hull down.

[Torgun]

Lunatech, on 18 April 2015 - 12:16 PM, said:

We're not just talking about one weapon though, are we?

5% on 4 ERML and 2 LPL adds up. But in any case, the numbers should be subject to change. Currently the TBR will get two Alpha's before it needs to use a coolshot/cool off/alpha again and shutdown which is enough to kill most mechs if the pilot is good. If it reduces the amount of times the laser vomit build can fire before shutting down/cooling off, it's a good thing. Especially now they'll be able to do it hull down.

One weapon does clearly tell you just how small the difference is. And high mounts that allow you to peek and shoot effectively is very useful, vs a 5% penalty? I'll have one of those on all my Victors please.

[Gas Guzzler]

The 10% duration means more staring though...

[xMintaka]

Torgun, on 18 April 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

One weapon does clearly tell you just how small the difference is. And high mounts that allow you to peek and shoot effectively is very useful, vs a 5% penalty? I'll have one of those on all my Victors please.

If it means the TBR can only alpha once before having to cool off, rather than twice (or three times if you cool down for 4 seconds, then it's a good thing. Especially if you can force them to brawl.

As I said before, the numbers should be subject to change after being tested anyway.

Edited by Lunatech, 18 April 2015 - 12:41 PM.

[Torgun]

Lunatech, on 18 April 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

If it means the TBR can only alpha once before having to cool off, rather than twice (or three times if you cool down for 4 seconds, then it's a good thing. Especially if you can force them to brawl.

As I said before, the numbers should be subject to change after being tested anyway.

Sure it's better than nothing, but the question is, is it good enough? I certainly don't think so, PGI can "punish" me with those high torsos on just about any mech I own if they feel like it.

[Gas Guzzler]

Torgun, on 18 April 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

Sure it's better than nothing, but the question is, is it good enough? I certainly don't think so, PGI can "punish" me with those high torsos on just about any mech I own if they feel like it.

We will see how it plays out in game.

[Mystere]

Nerf Clan this, buff IS that. I have news for you. We will never gain the balance people keep screaming for unless:

• IS Mechs = Clan Mechs
  
• IS Weapons = Clan Weapons
  
• IS Equipment = Clan Equipment

As I have said countless times, seeking 1-on-1 symmetric balance in an IP that is inherently asymmetric is nothing but a fool's errand.

[El Bandito]

Another day goes by without Timbie and Crow nerf is another day I am not piloting six mechs I spent 100,000,000 C-Bills on, total. Bought them, mastered them, felt like cheating when I drove them.

They need mobility nerfs, like -10% torso twist rate, or -10% accel/deceleration rate. Certainly not -20% like the Victors had received before, but -10% will make some difference.

Also, the Crow especially needs some hit-box adjustments to make its CT more vulnerable. Right now it is more durable than many 60-65 ton IS Heavies without sacrificing any firepower, while running at 107 kph.

With more energy points, I'm just gonna slap in tons of CERSLs instead of few CERMLs, combined with CLPLs/CERLLs and still do awesome damage without overheating. Not like those two are lacking in speed.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 April 2015 - 06:41 PM.

[Chuanhao]

Definition of Sweet Spot.

If the Timber is OP, than what do we consider as being not OP? The to be answered question is what exactly is the sweet spot that would justify the level of nerfs? How would you quantify this sweet spot so that we have a "level" to nerf to?

What about Ceiling?

Or could we instead use Timber as the CEILING. This would enable a possible sweet spot of

75 Ton IS mech + IS equipment + Quirks + Playstyle == Timberwolf + Playstyle

For example, an Orion in brawler mode could have enough quirks so that

• Orion + AC20 / SRM / MLaser + Quirks + Brawler == Timberwolf + Skirmisher

• Night Gyr (More Alpha, less Flexibility, Brawler) == Timber (Less Alpha, more Flexibility, Skirmisher)

(I am randomly assigning Timber in the Skirmisher role here, not prescribing it)

Cause I can imagine having the Night Gyr in the future with the exact same tonnage as the Timberwolf but having more space for weapons due to a smaller engine (300XL) and might be deemed by many to be an example of powercreep. But this is true only on a one-on-one alpha situation. The Night Gyr would rightly (I hope) be less maneuverable. And this is where the balance or sweetspot is achieved when equation b can be implemented

Playstyle as a variable.

I have introduced playstyle as an additional variable that is assisted primarily determined by quirks but requires the player to have the requisite skills.

Impact of Game Mode.

The system of quirks is a good balancing as it factors in playstyle. But the realisation of playstyle is contextual and places demands on the player’s skill as well. The context will depend on game mode. We have limited games modes such that certain Metas of the trinity seem to dominate. If the Devs can develop more modes that require different playstyles, then other mechs suddenly become very viable. This is then linked to why people ask for PvE so that certain unique playstyles (e.g. scouting) become necessary to achieve the “mission” that is not assault, conquest, skirmish, counter-attack or invasion. Pity the time it takes to matchmake cause with more modes, we have smaller queues and longer MM time.

[Lily from animove]

Balance is when every mech is a choice wih only marginally different "suitabilities" when one is an alternate choice for maybe a different situation or different playstlye.

not balanced is, a mech is plain bad compared ot another. Not balanced is when a emch is hardmode reaching 80% of what another emch can do in "half brain" mode.

They don't need to be mirrored to achieve this.