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Quirks: Your Least Favorite!


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#41 TercieI

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 04:06 PM

Least favorite: BJ-1&1DC AC/2 quirks. The Blackjack is a fragile, low tonnage mech. Quirking it for a weapon that requires extended face time to do damage makes it a suicide machine. Right with that are AC/10 quirks on assaults that can hold AC/20s (notably La Malinche and Boar's Head). The theme here is that quirks that try to elevate a bad gun (AC/2s, AC/10s, LB-10Xs) are never going to become competitive with mechs quirked for better guns and thus doom those variants to irrelevancy.

#42 Geist Null

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 04:08 PM

I just don't like specific weapon quirks. just lump them in PPC's, ballistics, energy, srms, lrms.

#43 InspectorG

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 04:18 PM

View PostTina Benoit, on 20 April 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

Hello MechWarriors!

This thread is to hear out your feedback regarding your least favorite Quirks, pick the top 3 that you wish were different!


Summoner quirks. Why does PGI hate the Summoner?

AMS is useless. Its like training wheels. It really only has utility for slow mechs as far as i can tell. Decent pilots rarely equip them.

MG rate of Fire. it takes @6MG to be considered somewhat useful. That means 2MG will need 3 times the rate just to reach parity with something that CAN, though not ideally, work. MG range is nice-ish but cone of fire ruins it. RoF will also eat Ammo faster...

ENERGY COOLDOWN on a mech that is forced to use a few hot big energy weapons cuz it only has 4E.
COOLDOWN = OVERHEAT FASTER.
Heat Gen + Duration is far more useful for a mech that can really only use 3LPL, 1-2ERPPC

Plz fix the Slummoner. PLZ!!!

#44 InspectorG

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 04:24 PM

View PostBig Tin Man, on 20 April 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:

, nova too wide, slow and hot.


Nova is a lost cause. Its best feature is burning worms with lazors

#45 Agent 0 Fortune

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 04:33 PM

Quirks designed to enforce a 1-button builds, or that are open to abuse, especially large quirks assigned to mechs with the multiple hardpoints to really abuse those bonuses. Having many similar hardpoints is already advantageous, why compound that bonus by over-quirking the chassis. I would much rather see some diminishing rewards attached to quirks to avoid enforcing an all energy build. For example, a Dragon gets X% bonus for one AC, but only gets half (or 2/3) that bonus when two are equipped. Of course this can scale somewhat depending on weapon.

New Idea (to incorporate weapon manufactures)
Another completely different approach than quirks would be per-Weapon Modules, or more aptly upgradable Weapon Hardpoints. And these upgraded weapon hardpoints could carry “Manufacturer Specific” weapons. This would allow you to directly assign a limited number of bonuses or even limit the types of bonuses based available.
For instance, a Hunchback HBK-4P can carry 9 energy weapons but maybe only 6 are upgradeable slots, and the only compatible options are Reduced Heat, or (lower bonus) Reduced Heat/Increased Range
Or maybe the Thunderbolt has access to a great ERPPC, but it is only available for a single RA hardpoint.
Or getting back to the Dragon, maybe it only has 1 upgradable hardpoint in the Right Arm, sure it could mount a second AC, but it would just be an off-the-shelf, bolt-on AC.
The disadvantage of this is that there would still need to be some sort of standardization among the “Manufacturer Specific” weapons, unless you are willing to say that only the Dragon (maybe the Cent too) can carry the “SuperCollider AC5” with its massive Cooldown, Range, and Velocity quirks.
Of course these would all have to be available for C-Bills, with GXP unlocks to feed the grind.

Some may see this as an overall nerf, it doesn’t have to be, the main drive is to create a more engaging game-play, and encourage players to user more than one mouse button.

#46 Enchiridion

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 04:36 PM

In the form of general feedback, PPC quirks seem to be strewn about all over the place without very much thought. Griffins (which are fine even with the random PPC buffs that they never use) and BLR's come to mind and there are others.

BattleMasters - PPC quirks! Why? The 3M needs to be completely re-done (ERPPC's, missiles [for a single 10-tube lancher] and medium lasers with no heat relief in sight), the Hellslinger is weird, and the 1D & 1G are basically OK.

Zeusi - The 6T is the only one that gets anything out of missile quirks. All 3 of them probably need a little extra damage potential. They would look different with a shift away from laser vomit meta.

Grasshoppers - The PPC quirks on the 5N aren't enough to make it worth using them. There's a slick medium pulse laser build that would be elite with a little more range. That puts it in direct competition with the TDR-5SS, however. The quirks are close but not quite right imo. The missile quirk on the 5H is cruel although the variant works well as it is with large pulses and mediums, while the 5J is fairly solid but could use a little boost (laser duration?).

DRG-5N - Sweet UAC/5 quirks. Too bad it can only fit one.

Edited by Enchiridion, 20 April 2015 - 04:52 PM.


#47 100 Tonne

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 05:05 PM

The armour buff to the atlas arms. It should have been to the front and side torsos.

#48 Docta Pain

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 05:13 PM

#1), #2) & #3) all in one: CTF-2X v FS9s. I know, I know, this is the last 'Mech you expected anyone to mention, and that is EXACTLY my point. The stated objective of quirks was to bring tier 5 'Mechs up to tier 3 and to make more than one tier 1 option. Unfortunately, it has made a NEW tier 1 out of FS9's (already very well documented as overpowered... I know, I know, I just spelled out overpowered...) so FS9s are basically tier 0.3 compared to everything else. Even with quirks the CTF-2X is still a terribad choice since its peers lack the inherent design flaws of the chassis. The quirking necessary to make a CTF-2X a tier 3 'Mech would be extreme, and just hypothetically consider what quirks would be needed to make it a tier 1 'Mech... can you imagine? To do that you would have to make it the effective equivalent of an FS9... rate of fire 50% combined with heat reduction over 35% and range extension over 35%. Then, imagine that overquirked CTF-2X... it just ceases to have the soul of a CTF2X: a cobbled-together-out-of-Shadow-Hawks-and-Marauders-Liao-its-the-best-we-could-make-out-of-junk 'Mech. Quirks do not do what they were intended to do. They have created a new tier 1 and relegated former tier 1s to tier 2 or 3. There is slightly more variety on the battlefield but not in the right ways. Breaking chassis by overpowering them vs mechs twice their size represents significant negligence in game design. Quirks should not take a tier 3,4,5 'Mech and advance it past where tier 1 was. The quirks necessary to make a CT-2X viable as a tier 1 'Mech are what FS9s received except FS9s do not have the inherent design flaws. By asking this question you've embedded an expectation within the community that the feedback you receive will be heeded.

#49 InspectorG

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 05:38 PM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 20 April 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

Quirks designed to enforce a 1-button builds, or that are open to abuse, especially large quirks assigned to mechs with the multiple hardpoints to really abuse those bonuses. Having many similar hardpoints is already advantageous, why compound that bonus by over-quirking the chassis. I would much rather see some diminishing rewards attached to quirks to avoid enforcing an all energy build. For example, a Dragon gets X% bonus for one AC, but only gets half (or 2/3) that bonus when two are equipped. Of course this can scale somewhat depending on weapon.


What can a under-50ton mech equip other than boating lasers?
Max engine to help survivability, ammo dependent weapons are a liability.

Heat and DHS will need to be juggled to get decent usage. There is the balance mechanic.

One-button-ing? Sorry. You could implement chain fire for all weapons but people would just use Macros.
MWO =/= BT

#50 OznerpaG

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 05:58 PM

weapon quirks are too specific - they should offer some flexibility so you can take into account a players style. having a buff quirk the ERPPC but not the PPC, or the SRM4 but not the SRM2 is just strange. i think quirks should benefit an entire class of weapon, not a specific weapon so get rid the the '2 tier' quirks where a specific weapon has x% quirk, while other weapons in the same class have half x% quirk

or at the very least be able to 'downgrade' the quirk to lower damage types - with the possible exception of the LRM5 the lowest tier almost every single of weapon is grossly under or un-utilized so there's no reason why they shouldn't always benefit from quirks of a higher tier of weapon in the same class. for example any AC quirk will always include the AC2, as it should since the AC2 is considered inferior to every other AC anyways.
ie:
medium laser quirks and/or medium pulse laser quirks also work for small lasers and small pulse lasers
SRM4 quirks also work for the SRM2 and streak SRM2
UAC5 quirks also work for AC2
etc.

simplify. break quirks down into 2 groups - weapon type, and quirk type:

weapon type:
SRMs
streak SRMs
LRMs
Lasers
Pulse Lasers
PPCs (both)
ACs
UACs

Quirk Type:
cooldown
range
duration
velocity
heat generation
spread
jam chance


also, the point of quirks is to give underutilized mechs some love and play time. if you give a mech quirks but it still never gets played then the quirk %'s arn't high enough - changing the quirks to something else isn't going to help any. the best method for determining the final weapon quirks of any mech is to start them all at 10%, then wait (2 weeks) until the next patch. all the mechs that are given reasonable playtime are (likely) fine, the ones which are still untouched (maybe the bottom 10) need more love, so add 5% to all their quirks, then wait 2 more weeks. repeat until all the mechs get at least some playtime. impossible dream? maybe, but if a mech isn't played it's likely because it's grossly inferior in some way, shape, or form so making up for it by gradually escalating it's quirks is a fair way to weed those mechs back into the game

Edited by JagdFlanker, 20 April 2015 - 06:01 PM.


#51 SpiralFace

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 06:44 PM

Least favorite quirks fall into Four Categories:

- Quirks that do nothing more then promote single weapon spam builds
- Massive offensive quirks on mechs with very little inherited frame drawbacks.
- Weapons that are only worth taking if they have ungodly amounts of quirks associated with them.
- Heavily overcompensate for natural weapon drawbacks.

For the first situation, I loath single weapon spam quirks, especially those that directly promote either the DPS or the heat efficiency of single weapons.

Its what has made fire starters amount to nothing more then single weapon spam and part of the reason why it is pretty much the only "viable" light frame in the meta right now because its power level, speed, Jumping abilities, weapon alphas, and heat efficiency through the quirks make it pretty much ungodly good for the amount of weight they are, and can pretty much 1v1 nearly any mech in the game that doesn't boat massive streaks to hard counter them.

On the massive offensive quirks buff front, I hate offensive quirks given to what amounts to pretty much already perfectly workable frames which ends up tipping the balance so far in their favor perfectly workable frames, they become dominant go to mechs rather then making up for natural deficiency's on the mech frame.

The previous Thunderbolt ER PPC quirks are a good example of this. They where almost to the level of Awesome level of quirks, but the Thunderbolts where lighter, had high weapon mounts (especially compared to the awesome.) And either had the option of mounting 2 extremely high mounted PPC's and a "under-slung" cockpit one, or all 3 PPC's in a cluster that offered near perfect convergence on all 3 frames.

This is NOT to say that I hate high value offensive weapon quirks though. I fully admit some frames need it. By comparison, the AWS line is fully justified in its extensive quirks, and the 9S is PERFECTLY justified in its high value offensive quirks given that the 9s can only mount 3 PPC's scattered across the frame in a way that cannot give the weapons perfect convergence, all while battling bulky mech geometry and low slung weapons in ALL of its weapon mounts.

The IV 4's ballistic quirks are also fully justified, and in all honesty, should probably be even greater then the Dragon 5N's soley because it has to deal with wide mounted weapon hard points that have a poor convergence rate (something that I feel is woefully under recognized in regards to quirks.)

On the weapon mounts, there are those weapons that need SERIOUS quirks to ever even be considered using. PPC's only ever see use when they are quirked, same with regular Large Lasers, Ac2's and various other types of weapons.

If a weapon isn't good enough to be taken without direct quirks associated with them, it indicates that something should probably be looked into in the weapon itself, rather then relying on quirks to overcompensate for the said weapon.

And on the final point, weapons should come with NATURAL drawbacks. Quirks can reduce those said drawbacks, but they should not all out remove them and make a single weapon system do literally EVERYTHING so there is no opportunity for counter play by the opposing player.

The Gridiron hunchback and Stalker 5N are perfect examples of this.

On the grid iron, the only two drawbacks a Gauss rifle has in a skilled players hand is that they can be out DPS'ed by other weapons (given their heat perks.) And they are very frail weapons.

The quirks on the grid iron remove the ONLY drawback the weapon even has, and as a result, the mech becomes about nothing more then boating a SINGLE weapon and pretty much forgo any other weapon because the Gauss rifle is all you need. When you can keep DPS pace with dedicated brawler builds off of a single long range sniping weapon that is supposed to make a poor brawling weapon, something is wrong.

The Stalker 4N has the same issue. It has both a 20% cooldown AND Heat generation on those Large lasers. Turning the few disadvantages the LL has (only "ok" cooldown time, high heat for its damage,) into essentially a one weapon catch all that can pretty much preform every role on the entire field with ZERO opportunities for counter-play. (It has range, it has massive alpha potential, it has sustained DPS, all from high mounted slots.)

No mech should be able to optimally preform in nearly all circumstances presented to the player. Its what has made mech quirks so frustrating because it both promotes the use of spam builds, but the builds that you see rise to the top are rising to the top by a significant margin, and its mostly when the frame was already fairly good to begin with, and its massive quirks see it pretty much preform optimally at nearly any combat situation on the field. (See any of the top IS meta mechs out there.)

Edited by SpiralFace, 20 April 2015 - 06:45 PM.


#52 TFun90

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:29 PM

I'll keep it short and sweet, JR7-F. This variant has fallen by the wayside as the quirkier FS9's, CDA's, and RVN's prove their worth on the battlefield.

I'd suggest it get a little cooling quirks just to keep up with the power creep, and then Medium Laser Range and Duration so it can do its unique job - unforgiving pocket laser scalpel. Fills the role between the tankier FS9-H, and flightless but quirkier and longer ranged RVN-2X.

My Bonafides: 5,600~ rounds in lights (6k if you count CDA's, which one basically should), once upon a time before RL aggro, light leader for SJR, the best team in the game.

(PS JR7-D could use some SSRM2 quirks on top of existing missile quirks to make it an effective anti-light again. JR7-K is kind of pointless since the FS9-S is both quirkier, and tankier for the designated Medium Pulse Laser loadout. Swap to LLas maybe? Nobody cares really.)

Edited by TFun90, 20 April 2015 - 08:07 PM.


#53 Modo44

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:41 PM

I can do it shorter: Power creep.

#54 ShinVector

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 07:49 PM

"Teir 1" lights not getting any armour or agility quirks... makes them really not worth taking.

#55 Rear Admiral Tier 6

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 08:07 PM

Grasshopper: Add faster reverse speed and they will be fine,focus on mobility quirks.Give 5J some mild energy range quirk instead of the ams range.

Highlanders: JJ thrust,enginecap to 375

Battlemasters: 1G and 3M could use more torso twist.

Quickdraws: IV-4 needs 2 critslots in its right arm.That would instantly raise it from tier 5 to tier 2.Other Quickdraws are very well quirked now.

#56 toastybacon

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 08:09 PM

Here's some of what I dislike.

Commando COM-2D
While it is true that this is the ECM variant, and that alone can be seen as an advantage over the other Commandos, I don't understand the lack of maneuverability quirks the other variants get. The 2D already has a lower engine cap, affecting both speed and turning rates, so giving it some of the quirks the others have would no be unbalanced and seems more logical. (why the double nerf basically)

Commando COM-1D
I dislike the medium pulse quirks and believe generic or medium laser quirks would be a better fit. This 25 tonner has a hard enough time equipping decent firepower, so why would you want 2 M-pulse lasers over 2 M lasers? 4 tons for 12 damage vs 2 tons for 10 damage? Its simply too wasteful to equip pulse lasers.

Blackjack BJ-1
AC2s are a pretty bad weapon on paper, and even more so when you consider the face tanking required to get decent damage on your target. Face tanking in a 45 tonner? Not the best idea. Consider generic quirks to allow builds of either small ACs or large ACs would be better. Don't steer players towards bad ideas.

#57 Zoeff

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 08:41 PM

View Posttoastybacon, on 20 April 2015 - 08:09 PM, said:

Here's some of what I dislike.

Commando COM-2D
While it is true that this is the ECM variant, and that alone can be seen as an advantage over the other Commandos, I don't understand the lack of maneuverability quirks the other variants get. The 2D already has a lower engine cap, affecting both speed and turning rates, so giving it some of the quirks the others have would no be unbalanced and seems more logical. (why the double nerf basically)

Commando COM-1D
I dislike the medium pulse quirks and believe generic or medium laser quirks would be a better fit. This 25 tonner has a hard enough time equipping decent firepower, so why would you want 2 M-pulse lasers over 2 M lasers? 4 tons for 12 damage vs 2 tons for 10 damage? Its simply too wasteful to equip pulse lasers.

Blackjack BJ-1
AC2s are a pretty bad weapon on paper, and even more so when you consider the face tanking required to get decent damage on your target. Face tanking in a 45 tonner? Not the best idea. Consider generic quirks to allow builds of either small ACs or large ACs would be better. Don't steer players towards bad ideas.


I second the commando being useless.

I just looked at the quirks for the new Locust variant.... That is going to make the Commando even more useless. My Deaths Knell weeps... D:

#58 luxebo

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 08:47 PM

Here's what I dislike, the TBR-A quirks.

They don't do anything to limit anyone from using the shoulder for mostly sniping purposes, since that shoulder comes with such a light nerf that it won't do anything to such a huge advantage of giving the best mech in the game high poking points. Now it's a mech that can outbrawl assaults, outpoke the 4N, out midrange dps every other mech, out snipe also every other mech, etc etc etc. I would remove the mobility nerfs since they do nothing and make no sense, but then add maybe double the cooldown/duration nerfs.

I also dislike the SCR-B quirks too, but because it actually hits it quite hard. The heat gen quirk should be much lowered and maybe increase the cooldown/duration a tiny bit. Most would use it as a 6 E arm along with the middle torso E's, but not all 13 E points. Using the 6 E forces em to counteract that heat generation.

#59 Tarogato

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Posted 20 April 2015 - 11:26 PM

My least favourite quirks are the ones that invalidate other options.
  • Dragon 1N
There's no reason to take any other Dragon. They might as well not even exist, because it's a waste of a 60-ton Heavy slot if you could have brought a 1N instead. The 1N needs to be brought down and the other variants need to be brought up - they should meet in the middle.
  • Thunderbolt 5SS
There is exactly one build for this variant, and it's the best variant of the chassis. If your build isn't exactly this, then you're wrong. That's a problem. A variant shouldn't be validated by the one build it can do because of massive quirks, it should have multiple build options, and the 5SS simply has exactly one valid option, which isn't fun.
  • Firestarter S and Firestarter A
Exactly the same as with the other two - both of these variants have exactly one build option worth using. But actually, the Firestarters rustle my jimmies for another reason - power creep. The FS9-E and the JR7-F were the kings of light mechs before quirks were introduced. They set the upper bar for light mech performance in the game, and the quirk system should have brought as many other light mech variants as possible up to that same bar. Instead, the mechs that received quirks (like the FS9-A and FS9-S) far surpassed the FS9-E and JR7-F to the point where NOBODY takes those two mechs, even though they used to be the best light mechs in the game! That's a problem, because now there's talk of buffing the Ember and Jenner because they're not on par with FS9-S or FS9-A... which is just plain ridiculous. Fixing balance issues shouldn't create more balance issues.



Mechs that didn't need quirks in the first place, shouldn't need them now. Mechs that needed quirks in the first place shouldn't have gotten quirks that were so strong as to invalidate the mechs that were already on the top without quirks. (also, PGI's official tier list used to establish the first quirk pass wasn't exactly the best reflection of how game balance was at the time - it treated mechs like the Highlander/Victors as best in class during a time when they were absolutely terrible because poptarting had just died.)

Edited by Tarogato, 22 April 2015 - 12:25 PM.


#60 Elizander

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Posted 21 April 2015 - 12:58 AM

Top 3 Least Favorite Quirks:

1) PPC/ER PPC/Clan ER PPC Velocity

Why I dislike it - This pretty much shoehorns the PPC to a niche weapon. Low base velocity and a 40% velocity increase on some quirks makes me feel dumb putting a PPC/ER PPC on a mech that does not have a 40% velocity increase. It's not just a bandaid for the mech that has the quirk, it's also a huge bandaid for the PPC itself.

Suggestions - Increase base velocity of the PPC to make it useful across the board. The quirk can be changed to give IS PPCs no minimum range, IS ER PPCs 2.5 splash damage (like clan) and Clan ER PPCs an extra 2.5 splash damage.

2) Machinegun Range

Why I dislike it - Machineguns are mostly for fast mechs who can decide the range of engagement so the extra addition does not help much and I feel is a waste of quirk budget.

Suggestions - Bake it into the machinegun rate of fire quirk. Call it Enhanced Machinegun or something which increases both range and rate of fire.

3) Internal Structure Increase

Why I dislike it - This is in every way inferior to flat armor increase. If I'm taking internals I'm taking critical hits that I would not be taking if this was applied to armor instead.

Suggestions - Just get rid of it and change it to flat armor increase across the board.

Edited by Elizander, 21 April 2015 - 08:22 AM.






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