Jump to content

Quirks: Your Least Favorite!


401 replies to this topic

#61 Kin3ticX

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The People's Hero
  • The People
  • 2,926 posts
  • LocationSalt Mines of Puglandia

Posted 21 April 2015 - 02:41 AM

I was a big proponent of quirks going back to probably late 2013 but it hasn't worked out like I had hoped. DWF, TDR, SCR, HBR are really powerful, 3 of which PGI keeps adding omnipods to. On the other hand, large quirks can warp the relationship of weapons across multiple IS 'mechs. For example, in the Medium class, the general value of AC5s is diminished because the 6R has a 40% cooldown quirk. The Grid Iron has a 50% Gauss cooldown. Same deal with the DRG-1N heavy and AC5s. Its great that quirks are here, but at large sizes they also act as a takeaway from other 'mechs.

Recently, Sean Lang was testing the IV4 hero mech 'which has the 40% AC5 cooldown quirks. The discussion basically boiled down to it not being viable for a couple reasons; wide arms and the high face-time when trying to dish damage. It can't stand there when 50+ alphas are pew pewing everywhere. It is really tough to make DPS mechs work consistently against punishing laser vomit. Sean Lang is a pretty good player and he faces similar stuff to what I experience.

Those are some really really big cooldown quirks, yet, we don't see servers filled with Dragons and WVR-6Rs. Why? Discounting the glass arm and the XL engine, on the whole, high facetime DPS builds are going to lose out to high-alpha, poke, hitscan or hitscan+gauss builds. Not always, but on the whole yes, it is just the nature how the game plays out right now.

here are my Dragon-1N stats w/ 2xAC5, 2xML

58, 42, 16, W/L 2.63, 101, 26, KDR 3.88, 40,894, 81,209, 03:53:33
Avg dam 705

here are my TBR-C stats w/ Gauss, 5xERML
112, 92, 20, W/L 4.60, 166, 29, KDR 5.72, 66,253, 165,148, 09:08:01
Avg dam 591

Well, I have a 705 avg damage in my Dragon (which is probably my highest) but I don't want to use it. I can carry much harder in a TBR which performs far better. This is because there have been several rounds in my Dragon where I have been put up against good players and have been unable to fight back effectively. Exposing to make use of my high DPS w/ XL and the low slung and glassy arm is hit or miss and gets punished regularly against Clantech laser vomit, laser vomit+gauss, or other IS vomit 'mechs such as the WVR-6K.

Now, even with the 40-50% cooldown buffs, these dakka mechs are actually more gimmicky then they are powerful. This could mean the general game balance amongst the low to mid level 'mechs is warped in addition to STILL having balance problems w/ top end 'mechs.

The -25% LL heat gen on the 6K and -20% on the STK-4N is definitely pushing the upper limit of what the quirk system can do just before the point when it starts to get silly. It is totally tapped out in this case.

The PPC needs work. I hardly ever use them anymore and they are not worth having unless they have a velocity quirk. A PPC heat quirk without a velocity quirk is almost worthless. Forget using PPCs on something without large PPC velocity quirks. This is because I must land a PPC hit to do anything, while hitscan lasers guarantee something within their range. The decision between PPC and Lasers certainly favors lasers right now.

In conclusion, I think PGI is still underestimating the true power of the DWF, TBR, SCR, HBR. Trying to price in the Clan XL, omnipods, better hardpoints, better weapons, into the IS quirks is solving some problems but creating others. One of those problems being the relationship of weapon options within the IS tech base. At some point, the size of the quirks actually takes away too much from other 'mechs as they get near silly in size.

On a side note: I don't think the FS9s were so far behind the JR7-F that the FS9-S needed a -30% heat quirk. Minus 30% heat gen is a very large quirk. We learned from the TDR-9S that -50% heat gen is a silly monstrosity(which baffles me how that made it into the game).

Possible solutions:
  • Nerf tier 1 clan somehow, bring down the bar a notch
  • Cap quirk % at some unknown # but use more of them
  • consider straight up adding hardpoints to 'mechs when quirks get to a point where they are approaching silly and still don't fix anything

Edited by Kin3ticX, 21 April 2015 - 03:05 AM.


#62 Detriitus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 105 posts
  • LocationA long time ago in a galaxy far less explored

Posted 21 April 2015 - 03:13 AM

I don't like quirks that limit or fail to enhance a mechs viable options.
The splitting of heat generation quirks on the Nova has hurt some pulse builds, for example. The concept of keeping the important ballistic quirks in the Summoner's left arm while its most desired ballistic hard point is the right torso also doesn't help much, as you have to either give up half of its few energy hardpoints or go without quirks. I very much enjoy the quirks on the Warhawks in contrast, as those offer different flavors and good choices due to the greater number of interchangable hardpoints.

So please apply the Summoners' quirks in a way that doesn't tax the number of hardpoints as much. Buff those hardpoints that have a chance of changing the mechs viability, even if that means buffing one variant (the D's right shoulder and arms) more than other variants. Omnimechs in MWO are all about the swappable parts after all, as most other choices (engines, endo, some structure slots) are fixed.

#63 Lily from animove

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Devoted
  • The Devoted
  • 13,891 posts
  • LocationOn a dropship to Terra

Posted 21 April 2015 - 03:23 AM

any MG quirks.
any ams quirks
cooldown quirks on laserboats that anyways run hot.

those quirks make no sense at all, because they do not really imporve the mechs performance on a significatn level.

Edited by Lily from animove, 21 April 2015 - 03:25 AM.


#64 Monky

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Shredder
  • Shredder
  • 3,219 posts
  • LocationHypothetical Warrior

Posted 21 April 2015 - 05:25 AM

Here is my tiering of least to most favorite:

Least favorite:

SRM/LRM range. LRMs are already near useless at the end-envelope (past 800 meters) because few targets at serious levels of play stay locked that long. By the time the missiles arrive, the target is dead or has dropped behind cover. SRMs move too slowly to accurately shoot beyond 175 or so with any real predictability, and with their ammo limitations risking wasted shots is a fool's choice. Only useful if your enemy is charging right at you, sitting still, shut down, or making some other dumb mistake.

Ballistic range. Ballistics are accurate to their crosshair, but the crosshair is calibrated for specific ranges (and even then barely - check out this video to see why: http://www.twitch.tv...monky/c/6482367 ). If you're upping the max range, you're messing with the point of impact and not adjusting the crosshair. If you can come up with a way to overcome this, I'm fine with it, but as is it is poor at best. The exceptions to this are PPC (I know, handled by its own quirk) and Gauss max range as they are unaffected by gravity, so the crosshair stays relevant for point of impact. Machineguns get a little bit of benefit from this as well, but their CONE OF FIRE is ridiculous at any extended ranges, making it basically throwing ammo away even if you're getting full damage per shot.

Beam duration reduction. This is a powerful quirk, but we already have beam duration differences between pulse and normal lasers. Further, due to being percentage based, normal and ER laser reap a much larger actual benefit. For example, an IS large pulse has 0.67 beam duration and an IS large laser has 1.00 duration. Subtract 50% from those numbers and the difference between the two shrinks from .33 seconds to .17, making the Large Pulse comparitively worse. If you're going to do beam duration reduction it needs to be a flat milisecond reduction, not a percentage, or you're making wonky balance issues where pulses are no longer valid choices.

Projectile speed. In addition to messing with point of impact on gravity affected projectiles (like covered under ballistic range) this quirk's poor application is highlighted by mechs which have had to recieve ENORMOUS PPC speed quirks to make using PPC's even remotely viable. If you have to use quirks like this to even get the weapon on the field in a serious environment the problem is with the weapon as a whole. The solution here is don't apply this to gravity affected ballistics, and up PPC overall speed, limiting its application to Gauss rifles realistically.

LBX Spread quirks - Same issue as mentioned before - quirking into viability. If LBX aren't useful MAKE THEM USEFUL don't try and make a few edge cases with quirks. Put on your balancer pants and for once in the 3-4 years MWO has existed and make the LBX work! Not trying to be negative here but they have NEVER been viable in the history of MWO! Get on it, WITHOUT quirks as a crutch! Some helpful tips: Look at SRMs and what they do: SRMs have the same basic functionality, but accomplish it in a way that works: Good weight to power ratio! LBX are heavy, in order to be viable they need more power. Bring in the spread -some- so you can hit all shots on a light mech (for isnstance locust) at the max range and then up the power of each projectile.

NARC Quirks - Narcs are useless because they are poorly implemented overall, same as LBX. FIX THE NARCS!

So those are the main offenders.

Quirks which could use improvement in how they are applied:

Heat generation - This is a handy quirk, but it needs to be applied pretty heavily to light mechs. Lights have the least cooling potential in the game due to limited weight and space (as they often require XL, Endo, and Ferro upgrades along with DHS to be viable). This means they can't really pack in heatsinks. To make matters worse, a lot of lights can't get up to an XL 250 meaning they HAVE to spend precious remaining space on heatsinks. As you can probably tell, this means at some point you have to make your mech less effective just to fit the heatsinks required to run in, and lights are already the least effective weight class pound for pound. Further, if you're on an energy hardpoint heavy light, there is simply no way to fill all the slots and make use of them since you'll be so far past your heat cap. The FS9-A is a good example of these quirks being properly applied, an example of poor application would be the JR7-F, which relies on 6 energy hardpoints but can't even remotely keep up due to being outcooled by other quirked lights. The FS9-S runs 5-6 medium pulses, but runs it so much cooler, you'd be screwing yourself by taking the Jenner which doesn't have any other options!

Beam range - Not the right name but basically energy beam weapon range. This quirk is great for three things: Making inner sphere pulse lasers and small useable (a problem related to IS pulse and small laser design! shouldn't have to be quirked to accomplish!) Making IS medium lasers reach out as far as Clan ER Mediums (which is a valid application because you'd have to pack larges otherwise, 5x the weight, not viable), and making IS ER Larges reach as far as clan ER Larges (also valid to allow clans and IS to trade fire on long range positions without having to have everyone in IS use Gauss rifles exclusively). So, overall, beam range is good, but inner sphere small and pulse lasers need to be overhauled rather than quirked into viability with it.

SRM/LRM Velocity/Spread. Lumping these together - I don't like SRM velocity because using SRMs relies on timing the flight vs your enemies moves, adjusting that to be different on mechs makes it HARDER to use SRMs in a fight, but it isn't the worst thing in the world If you want to do that, make it for SRM's overall. LRM speed quirks, hey that's alright, LRMs already take so long to hit you're basically not going to hit anyone who hadn't already given up on life and wandered into the open in front of the enemy without ECM. As far as spread I think it has some merit, but needs to be sizeable to have any real impact. 5% spread reduction is almost nothing and that's what we're looking at right now. 15% might be a meaningful impact that could make some changes in how some mech's missile hardpoints are looked at.

Energy/Missile cooldown. These quirks are great overall, but on mechs where the cooling potential is low they need to be paired with decent cooling quirks, simple as that. Firing faster just means overheating faster for some mechs as it is.

Quirks that are great:

Agility quirks - in order of importance: Accel/Decel, turn rate, yaw/pitch degree, yaw/pitch speed. Accel/Decel lets mechs poke, an all important aspect of mech warfare. Turn rate allows mechs to manuever into positions or brawl, important overall and for when your enemy has closed on you to counter your poking. Yaw/pitch degree is important because it establishes what fields of fire you can actually put down with torso weapons. yaw/pitch speed is somewhat important because it assists with shielding and getting weapons on targets rapidly. Please don't bother with arm quirks aside from possible degree of movement which would be weak on a mech where most/all firepower isn't in the arms anyways, speed is a pointless arm quirk.

Ultra AC Jam chance - I like it. It works, it boosts DPS without giving a hard buff, and it doesn't make the jam mechanic invalid. Kudos!

Ballistic Cooldown - Since ballistics are (relatively) cool running, this quirk is exceptionally powerful in defining the role of a mech. A great example is the Grid Iron which went from worthless to competitive with simply increasing Gauss reload by 50%. A simple, powerful quirk that can stand alone. A minor issue with it is that you can end up over-pidgeonholing mechs by putting specific ballistic quirks that are very powerful, and general ballistic quirks that are weak by comparison. Consider doing different ratios than 2/1 (50% gauss cooldown/25% ballistic cooldown for instance could be 50% Gauss cooldown/35% ballistic cooldown).

Edited by Monky, 21 April 2015 - 05:25 AM.


#65 The Great Unwashed

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Giant Helper
  • Giant Helper
  • 919 posts
  • LocationNetherlands

Posted 21 April 2015 - 05:35 AM

Any quirk that modifies range, heat and cooldown more than 10%. I believe weapon quirks must be on par with the upgrades you get from unlocking the skill tree and/or modules and not more.

-> Instead of weapon quirks, I'd prefer you allow the user to install 2 permanent, additional weapons modules (permanent meaning: when you uninstall it, it is lost, so byebye 6,000,000 Cbills). Modules may stack. This way the user can choose his own quirks without the quirks becoming too silly but he really has to make a good choice. In effect, they now work as the other upgrades (structure, armor, heatsinks).

And while you are programming my request into the game as I'm confident you will (please?), please add advanced zoom, shock absorbance, hill climb, speed retention and improved gyros to the skill tree as 21,500 GXP unlockable master options and forgo the respective modules.

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 21 April 2015 - 05:41 AM.


#66 Wormflush

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 42 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 21 April 2015 - 05:42 AM

Direct comparison TDR-9S vs. AWS-8Q

TDR-9S
ER-PPC Cooldown 25%
ER-PPC Heat Generation -25%
ER-PPC Range 0%
ER-PPC Velocity 30%

Effective Heat Generation per shot: 11.25
Effective Range: 810 m

AWS-8Q
PPC Cooldown 25%
PPC Heat Generation -25%
PPC Range 25%
PPC Velocity 25%

Effective Heat Generation per shot: 7.5
Effective Range: 675 m


There are two benefits gained from choosing an ER-PPC instead of a PPC:
  • extended range and
  • damage capability within 90 meters.
These benefits are so useful that players actively decide to choose an ER-PPC even if if has a heat factor of 1.5 compared to a PPC.




With the range quirk, the 8Q has 83% of the range of the 9S. This almost negates benefit 1 (in contrast to 66% without quirks) .

In regard to the heat, the 8Q can fire 3 PPC while producing the same heat a 9S produces with 2 ER-PPC. That's 30 damage vs. 20 damage with a comparable range. Benefit 2 can't compete with this relative disadvantage.

Heat generation quirk was halved from 50% to 25% in the quirk update from February 17. A heat generation bonus of 50% maybe was too high. But in comparison to an AWS-8Q (and my personal experience with a TDR-9S's performance after the quirk update), 25% is not a good enough reason to use ER-PPCs in a 9S. You dash out 60 damage, then your heat capacity is filled and you have to wait. Compare that to the damage throughput of many other heavies.

I believe the TDR-9S heat generation bonus should either be increased, or another reason to make use of ER-PPCs should be added (like an insane velocity, reduced weight or other weapon quirks be able to compete with the damage push of an 8Q).

#67 Wormflush

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 42 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 21 April 2015 - 05:58 AM

ok, after having added my personal opinion in regard to the TDR-9S quirks, I have a suggestion for the moderators:

While asking for the most and least favourite of all our quirks, you surely have something in your mind with the community input now following. (BTW: What would that be?)

I bet a lot of this input will be biased by the fact that people are heavily involved with their most beloved mechs. So certainly, many a statement here will not necessarily be worth the bits they use up in your database: it will not be possible to make a decision based upon fan related opinions (my post above may be included).

I therefore ask for an explanation and definition on the purpose of the quirk system. I certainly can't give objective feedback regarding the quirk system if I don't exactly know the goals for why they were implemented. Is there such an explanation here in the forums? I can't find such a thing, and beg your pardon if it's common knowledge.

Depending on the purpose of the quirk system, my assessment of its implementation would differ vastly, if its purpose was either:
  • Balancing IS and Clan mechs.
  • General balancing.
  • Motivate players to play stock variants.
  • Keep mech customizations nearer to Battletech lore.
  • Motivate players to focus on particular weapon types for specific chassis.
  • Give scarcely used mechs a head start.
  • ...
Which one is it? And why?

EDIT: Ah, and maybe you could clarify if you want feedback on quirk classes (like "UAC Jam Chance") or on quirk instances (like "ER-PPC Heat Generation in the TDR-9S").

Edited by Wormflush, 21 April 2015 - 06:10 AM.


#68 C E Dwyer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 9,274 posts
  • LocationHiding in the periphery, from Bounty Hunters

Posted 21 April 2015 - 06:03 AM

Victors Highlanders and Atlas need quirk buffs

internal structure quirks seem pointless on anything but legs of jumping mechs, and even then armour is going to make the mech more viable not the internal structure.

Any quirk that buffs a weapon by 50% without using any modules, seems way to excessive, and defies logic, as if your buffing the mech that much then surely it means the weapon is at fault

#69 Mogney

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 492 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationSt. Louis

Posted 21 April 2015 - 06:31 AM

Ilya needs uac5 quirks. Thats how eveyone plays iT.

raven 3l neeDs erll quirks. THats how everyone plays it.
grasshopper needs to ditch the ppc quirks for medium pulse quirks.

#70 konokoni

    Rookie

  • Ace Of Spades
  • 8 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 06:53 AM

I'm going to be selfish and suggest mechs I already own:
  • Spider SDR-5V - At first glance, this mech has some very powerful quirks (30% energy cooldown & range, 30% laser duration reduction). However, the SDR-5V has severe hardpoint restrictions (two energy hardpoints, both in the CT). This limitation means that the current quirks do not make this a viable (or even a passable) mech.
  • Cicada CDA-3C - Much like the SDR-5V, this mech suffers from hardpoint problems. Its one energy hardpoint is quirked for ER-PPC's, but even with the quirks and both weapon modules (range and cooldown), a single ER-PPC is not a viable loadout for a 40 ton mech. Every time you poke for a 10 point shot, you run the risk of getting 30+ damage back from gauss-boating IS mechs, laser-boating clanners, etc. The four ballistic hardpoints do little to mitigate this problem; you can either include four machine guns (which themselves aren't very impressive in-game, despite looking good "on-paper") or a single smaller autocannon which will probably be ammo-starved due to lack of available tonnage. What is perhaps most tragic about the CDA-3C is that it once had a range increase to the ER-PPC, which let it at least sit very far back and saved it from most retaliation. This got removed in a quirk-adjustment pass, probably because it was deemed too powerful on large CW maps.
  • Shadow Hawk SHD-2D2 - At one point this mech was near the top of the IS medium mech heap. Thus, when quirks were implemented it received little or nothing; it was considered a "baseline" to which other IS mediums should aspire to. The problem is that quirks (as currently implemented) are so powerful that not having a least a couple of "good" ones almost certainly relegates an IS mech to the dustbin, no matter how good its fundamentals are. Thus, the SHD-2D2 is now an also-ran since it has no quirked loadouts to exploit that can put it at the level of the other heavily quirked mediums. This mech exposes the fundamental pitfalls of the quirk system: if quirks (collectively) are powerful enough to be meaningful in the meta, then not having them in a notable fashion is a death-sentence for a mech.
  • Honorable Mention: Cataphract CTF-3D - See SHD-2D2 & lack of quirks in the current meta.
Ultimately, I think the PGI dev team has to decide what, exactly the purpose of quirks are in the meta. Are they trying to improve balance between the various IS mechs? Are they trying to make IS mechs viable against Clan mechs? Both? If you're just trying to improve IS mech balance, you might be better served rolling back some of the more extreme quirks to bring the "over-performers" (HBK-GI, STK-4N) back in line with the majority of IS mechs. This would obviously be terrible for IS whenever facing Clan mechs, but it would at least serve to reduce the IS gulf between worst and best.

If you're trying to bring IS as a whole up to parity with Clans as a whole... well, that's a whole different ballgame and I suspect a whole lot of IS mechs are going to need a whole lot of really potent quirks to bring them up to the level of the "unholy trinity" of SCR, TBR, and DWF. I can't imagine what quirks a CDA-3C would need in order to make it even half-viable against an average SCR, even if you accept the CDA's inherent handicap due to the 15-ton weight differential. I'm not sure there's a "happy medium" for many mechs; the quirks are going to be underpowered and useless until they're overpowered, at which point that particular lucky mech will become the flavor-of-the-month. This won't improve game balance and it won't improve mech diversity and viability overall; the best it will do is keep the meta in constant flux.

Thank you for taking the time to collect the community's thoughts regarding the quirk system. I, for one, really appreciate the outreach attempt.

Edited by konokoni, 21 April 2015 - 06:54 AM.


#71 rangergord

    Member

  • PipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 47 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 06:57 AM

Quirks in a chassis that discourage build diversity. Wasn't build diversity the original selling point? Russ didn't want his dragons to all play the same? When the requirkening went stock we got things like 4 out of 4 banshee variants with a ppc velocity buff, 4/6 battlemasters with medium lasers, 3/4 quickdraws with medium lasers, and the functionally identical BJ-1 and BJ-1DC.

#72 Bront

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Urban Commando
  • Urban Commando
  • 4,212 posts
  • LocationInternet

Posted 21 April 2015 - 07:31 AM

There are lots of mechs I think need more quirk love (CTFs, VTRs, HGNs, JR7s, just to name a few, most of the top of the meta in the pop tart era didn't get the love they needed, and continue not to). But I'm going to focus on the system.

1) PPC/ERPPC quirks without speed are generally not useful.

2) Not every quirk needs to be split 50/50 with a weapon system/general quirk. Some mechs might be better suited with 10% general, 5% specific weapon quirk. Another mech may call for a 5% general, 10% specific quirk if it's a specialist. This also helps with weapons where the stats may vary greatly. 10% range boost for an ERLL means more than a 10% range boost for a SL or SPL, so you could build a 10% energy range, 20% Small Laser range boost on a mech without upsetting balance..

3) General quirks need to top off at 20%. Want to keep a 50% quirk, make it 30% weapon specific. 25% general quirks often make that mech better at anything involving that quirk than another variant of that chassis.

3) Quirks over 30% net require extra thought and care. Not all are bad, but some are overkill.

4) Be aware of what the quirks do vs regular weapon stats. For example, Medium Pulse Lasers on the Thunderbolt 5SS have a longer range than regular medium lasers do on almost any other IS mech. That's kind of silly. That's not to say never cross a line where MPLs out range MLs, but to that scale is ridiculous. Same with AC5 quirks that with modules and quirks can fire faster than an AC2.

5) Don't forget the bonus Modules can add. The can turn quirks that are already great into something obscene. When cooldown is already at 50%, it means Fast Fire is effectively a 10% reduction in cool down, and the module is now 20% reduction (since the reduction is based off the weapon's base stats). It's part of the issue with quirks is that stacking with modules they can push a quirk from well balanced to overpowered,

6) Be more aware of what quirks work best for what weapons and how they interact. The only ballistic quirk that helps MGs and other cannons is Range, but range doesn't help the AC2/5 as much without velocity quirks to compensate as well. Cooldown on any mech that isn't using them with Gauss or maybe AC5s may need some heat quirks as well. Meanwhile SLs/SPLs may need some range love, but won't really benefit from beam duration reduction.

7) Heat gen quirks are among the best quirks you can offer. Mechs that run cooler can either mount more weapons, or fire more often without any other quirks. Quite often, the biggest problem a mech has is it runs too warm if it mounts reasonable weapons. Almost all Mechs that are top tier now, either have heat quirks of some kind, or are able to mount plenty of cooling (or don't need to mount it).

8) New Mechs should be due for a quirk review a month or two in. Panthers seem mostly fine but could use a few tweaks, but the enforcers that aren't the 4R could use a little move love, Grasshoppers could maybe use a little more differentiating, and Zues' run too hot. You did a good job with the initial setup, but new mechs will need more tweaking than more established mechs.

9) Weapon Balance seems to be ignored to a point. For example, if a PPC is only worth mounting if a mech has great PPC quirks, maybe it's not the mech that's the problem, but the PCC. (Hint, PPCs and ERPPCs are too hot for the damage and projectile speed, dropping heat on them by 10% would be a good start). SLs, Flamers, MGs, PPCs/ERPPCs, AC2s, and AC10s/LB10s need some love. It might be a minor heat change (.75 heat for AC2s, or 9/13.5 heat for PPC/ERPPC would be good), or simply extra quirks (Double SL specific quirks, particularly range and cool down), or maybe a damage fix (MGs should be moved back up to 1 DPS, a time when many thought they were effective enough to think about taking) or a cool down reduction (slight boost in fire rate of the AC10/LBX would help them be a bit more useful). At that's just on the IS side.

Changes I've liked:

1) Like the idea of group quirks (Pulse, ER, Small, etc for lasers, SRM or LRM rather than SRM4 or LRM10). Not in every mech's case, but for most mechs I think it's better.

2) I like the iterative general nature of quirks, where quirks are changing a little each patch (I like Clans one patch IS another, with ~4 meches each patch). Wouldn't mind it including a few more mechs, but it's nice to have tweaks to the meta every patch.

View Postrangergord, on 21 April 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

Quirks in a chassis that discourage build diversity. Wasn't build diversity the original selling point? Russ didn't want his dragons to all play the same? When the requirkening went stock we got things like 4 out of 4 banshee variants with a ppc velocity buff, 4/6 battlemasters with medium lasers, 3/4 quickdraws with medium lasers, and the functionally identical BJ-1 and BJ-1DC.

Some chasis are defined by common weapons. Medium Lasers are also a core weapon in IS, so having lots of mechs with ML quirks isn't unreasonable.

#73 rolly

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Guardian
  • Guardian
  • 995 posts
  • LocationDown the street from the MWO server

Posted 21 April 2015 - 07:33 AM

To be honest, I believe the entire application of Quirks has gotten out of hand and over saturates the game. Now its a matter of working to stack as many quirks as possible.

The original quirks were meant to add flavour to variants for choices in design or use of equipment. That's lost here and seems a bandaid means to pretty up the buff/nerfs and additional justification for the 3 Variant minimum rule for mechs to be included in game.

Ie. the Garret d2j targeting system is what gave the Jagermech and Rifleman bonuses against aircraft. The Vindicator was notorious for the difficulty of pilots ejecting because of the design of the head and ML

Without fluff there is no grounding and instead of relatively minor and unique quirks we have this distraction from the real issues, which is the fact that there are a LOT of other things the need fixing in this game.

#74 Josef Koba

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Wrath
  • Wrath
  • 527 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 07:36 AM

The JM6-S quirks, velocity for AC/5, cooldown for AC/2, just don't make a lot of sense to me though I suppose they do to others around here. I rarely pilot the mech anyway, but it just seems odd to have them mixed like that.

Also, I really don't notice any significant reduction in UAC jam chance even with 30%. It could be that I don't use them often enough, but they still seem to jam pretty frequently (i.e. all the time).

I echo the previous comments about the Atlas' internal structure. I'd rather a boost to armor if I had to pick between the two. Internal structure is great for keeping my limbs, but it doesn't do much to save any of my components, at least not that I've noticed.

#75 epikt

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Littlest Helper
  • Littlest Helper
  • 1,351 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 07:42 AM

Easy one: Dragon-5N.
I know the default weaponry is an UAC/5. But it lacks firepower (except if you overquirk it, and nobody want that) and the variant lacks of energy/missile hardpoints to make a mixed loadout.
This variant, with its 3 ballistic hardpoints, is made for a triple AC/2, you should set back the old AC/2 quirk.

Edited by epikt, 21 April 2015 - 07:42 AM.


#76 Mcgral18

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • CS 2019 Top 8 Qualifier
  • 17,987 posts
  • LocationSnow

Posted 21 April 2015 - 07:56 AM

MG range quirks; due to the CoF, the quirk is nearly worthless. It just causes more spread.
Reduced CoF increases the effective range on its own.
LBx range falls into the same category.


MG RoF in sub 20% increments is largely ineffective. After the 20% damage nerf (and 25% DPS nerf) the MGs lost a reason to be taken. 20% RoF at least brings it back to that point...but it should be that without quirks.

Ballistic heat. Largely, not very useful. Unless you also get 50% RoF, it's very hard to overheat with ballistics without engaging Ghost Heat.

#77 Noober

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 43 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 07:57 AM

Thanks for the opportunity to give you guys some feedback. I primarily pilot light or fast mechs, so here is my feedback:

TL;DR: 1. Commandos need a full quirk repass, don't be shy, they still suck hard. 2. Locust 1M is still utter pants, consider extreme laser and missile quirks. 3. The CDA-X5 needs something more: such as strong SRM quirks (consider SRM6)

Commandos:
Commando Quirks do nothing, testing the 1D and 3A was.... hellish to say the least, the other two still need a bit of work too, tonnage for SRM ammo is the main issue. Death's Knell is OK, but the arms still get blown off super easy, consider buffing armour or increasing quirks to make the pay off better.

Locusts:
The locusts still need a bit of help, the 1E is the only solid one at the moment, now outclassing the 3M completely (which seems a shame) the 3S is Really close, but doesn't have the tonnage for enough ammo. 1M and 1V are still an issue too, on paper I don't see the locust 3V being any use at all, even with quirks (quirking range doesn't help when tonnage and restrictive hardpoints are the issue), but I'll test it. Highlight: 1M is hell to pilot, this needs a lot more work.

Spiders:
The 5D is still a solid mech, 5V is surprisingly good now, well done on these quirks, this is the level of quirking that the locust 1M, 3V and 1V need. The 5K still needs more work - the ERLL loadout quirked is equivalent of 1.5ERLL DPS but the mech needs to loiter to make it count (which is dangerous for lights). You can build a 2ERLL 5D, which has ECM a JJ and still has higher ranged DPS and focused damage.

Firestarters:
Very solid, the S feels like easy mode sometimes though, consider downquirking slightly.

Jenners:
Solid, but a CT structure / armour buff would be welcome (nearly all shots hit that location).

Ravens:
All good! Well done!

Panthers:
Surprisingly solid! the 8Z struggles with its quirks due to heat build up, consider a heat gen. quirk. The rest are OK!

Urbanmechs!!:
Lots of fun, and the quirks are OK, the R60 still feels a bit off, heat gen quirks required? The MG rate of fire quirk is a good start, but could probably be higher.

Cicadas:
All good except the X-5 - needs SRM DPS like the Huggin - consider heavily quirked SRM6, needs weapons geometry pass to add more missile tubes, 2 tubes makes all missiles over srm2, ssrm2 spread damage, making the mech even worse.

General notes:
Ammo dependence is the limiting factor in <30ton missile and ballistic mechs.

Heat gen is more of an issue in mechs <30tons due to engines less than 250 rated needing external heatsinks, which cannot be turned into true doubles by buying double heatsinks.

Rate of fire quirks on machineguns are a great idea for ballistic lights, add more to more lights, particularly those with less than 4 ballistic slots (pirate's bane for example) or to those that have very limiting hardpoints (SDR-5K, LCT-1V), don't be shy, try putting extreme rate of fire quirks and see what happens.

#78 Treysef

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 55 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 07:59 AM

I just thought of my least favorite of the quirks.

The Catapult C4, it used to have LRM10 quirks that were switched to LRM20. The C1 having LRM20 quirks make sense when you consider that it only has two missile hardpoints, it should bring the biggest LRM launcher it can in that case. The C4, however, has four missile hardpoints and you can not fill them all out with LRM20s, it just doesn't fit. The LRM10 quirks fit the hardpoints that the chassis comes with and honestly made it much more fun than the LRM20 quirks.

#79 Mattiator

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Spear
  • The Spear
  • 400 posts
  • LocationAthenry

Posted 21 April 2015 - 08:00 AM

Everyone else has brought up good points about quirks not bringing 'Mechs up to the level of the "Elite Four" (SCR, HBR, TBR, DWF), and I don't see the need to repeat those points. Let's take a look instead at some of the garbage-tier Battlemechs that still need rescuing.

The DRG-5N has never had a sensible array of quirks. AC/2 quirks for a triple-AC/2 build were absolutely worthless when they couldn't compare to the much lighter twin AC/5 build of the -1N. UAC/5 quirks? Yeah, let's give a 'Mech with three ballistic hardpoints but the ability to mount only one UAC/5 quirks for that! It won't fix the awful hardpoint layout, but blanket overall armor buffs, MG quirks, and the existing laser and missile quirks might help jolt a little life into the ever-unloved -5N.

The COM-2D has the dubious distinction of the worst ECM 'Mech in the game, with a slow engine cap and unimpressive quirks. The lower engine cap makes it much less maneuverable than the other Commandos. Giving it some of the movement quirks seen on the -3A might help with the maneuverability issues. I'd say focus on making this one more of a "support" 'Mech than a straight-up brawler like the -3A and you'll have yourself a winner.

Similarly, the COM-1D is another useless Commando variant. Medium Pulse Range quirks? What? Focus on the original role as a sniper. Big large laser buffs. Let it lay down a constant barrage of laser fire. The right arm is very essential, some additional armor would very much help the -1D out. Not sure what can be done about making missiles viable as well, but the missile cooldown buff is a step in the right direction.

The AS7-K, where do I start with this one? This guy's been the red-headed stepchild of the Atlas family since he was introduced in Closed Beta. The quirks seem to be tailored for a long-range fighter, which the Atlas does not do at all well thanks to the low-slung hard points and reputation as something that needs to go down right now when sighted. Perhaps a speed quirk coupled with extra armor to give it a little more mobility and survivability compared to its brethren? I'm loathe to rip into the weapon quirks since they're specifically tailored to the stock weapons and DO offer something different. Heck, maybe even throw in some AMS quirks as icing on the cake.

The CPLT-C4 had really good quirks for a short period of time! Basically it was like an up-tonned -4J! And then it got LRM-20 quirks and was useless again. Get rid of the LRM-20 restriction and this one will shine again.

The Jenner line in general. You guys did great work with the Oxide, but how about giving the rest of the line a little more love? CT armor/structure buffs and maneuverability buffs should be the order of the day. Give it some sort of advantage over the harder-hitting Firestarters.

The Ice Ferret is another 'Mech that needs to be looked at again, but it just got a bunch of work, so I'll keep it simple: BLANKET HEAT GENERATION REDUCTION. The Ice Ferret just doesn't have the tonnage for weapons and the heatsinks to run them effectively.

The Summoner also still needs work, but I haven't run mine lately and couldn't help you with that.

Edited by Mattiator, 21 April 2015 - 08:05 AM.


#80 King Kuranes

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • The Hammer
  • The Hammer
  • 54 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 08:02 AM

1) The Battlemaster 3M is an incoherent mess. The torso twist is terrible. ER PPC's without heat gen quirks are suicide to take - just absolutely terrible. I love the Battlemaster series but the torso twist negatives on them have taken what was once a mighty mech and turned it into something I don't really enjoy using.

2) Blackjack 1DC - whoever came up with the idea of changing it's AC5 quirks to AC2 are absolutely nuts. It was an extremely useful mech under it's previous quirks - in fact it was probably right where the Dragon 1N should be with cooldown. It's really quite terrible now

3) Zeus 9S - ERLL's are just not good to put on anything without heat gen quirks

4) Zeus 6S could probably use another 5-7.5% cooldown on the AC5's as right now you are taking a lot of damage for minimal gain

I actually quite enjoy the Cataphract 3D quirks.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users