282 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2015 - 05:38 AM, said:

This I can agree with. But did, for instance, the DRG need to have it's CT buffed (yes, yes it did) and then a chaingun meets ripsaw on crack ******* AC5 quirk, too? Does the Gridiron need to ballistic almost as well as any other HBK with any Ballistic ...AND have a machine gun Gauss?

The point is the amount of "quirk everything" going on. Some need a minor quirk or two. Others need more. But many mechs are getting too high of percentages, and too many total quirks, and the response seems to be, add even more quirks to the next batch of mechs.

It's called snowballing. And not the kind most off the filthy minded here are instantly thinking about.

Aren't you the same poster, that suggested this?

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

Prime:
- 20% Cooldown on Ballistics (Whole chassis)
- 20% Cooldown on LB-10X (LA only)
- 15% Heat Reduction on Energy (Chassis)
- 15% Heat Reduction on C-ERPPC (RA only)
- 25% Projectile Speed boost (Chassis) or a Cooldown on the PPC (RA)


Summoner Bravo:
- 25% Projectile Speed Missiles (Chassis)
- 20% Cooldown Missiles (Chassis)
- 20% Cooldown LRM20s (Arms)
- 15% Range Missiles (Chassis)
- 30% Target Lock Speed Missiles (Chassis)


Summoner Delta:
- 20% Heat Reduction Energy (Chassis)
- 20% Heat Reduction ER Large Lasers (RA/LA)
- 20% Heat Reduction ER Mlasers (RA/LA)
- -40% beam duration All Lasers (Chassis)
- 20% Cool Down Energy (chassis)

You've got some huge numbers in there.

-40% CD for LB10
-30% Heat for CERPPC
-40% CD for LRM 20s
-40% Heat for CERLLAS AND CERMLAS on the same mech
-40% Beam duration for all lasers



So are these numbers now too large?

[Felbombling]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2015 - 06:36 AM, said:

You know, never really looked too much into the Engine Customization side as one of the base balance issues, but .... you could be onto something. While the TT Engine ratings were upgrades were arbitrary and kind of silly, they were done for simplicity. And they did largely work.

Joseph Mallan, on 21 April 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

Doesn't this mean with out a reason? TT engine choices were designed to fit the hex movement system. A Mech could not have 4.5 walking points on a map.

Remember back to the paper and pencil days of BattleTech when you'd be concerned with what speed you wanted your Mech to go AND the weapons you could fit, given that chunk of tonnage for the engine you'd have to give up? Mech design in MW: O is stuffing the Mech with the alpha strike you want and THEN shoehorning an engine in, to the .5 ton. Which style of Mech design do you think is harder?

Respectfully, Joseph, restricting the pool of engines will be rough, but I don't know too many people who would want a Pinto engine in their Mustang chassis. For example, perhaps the Orion has the 300, 330, 355 and 375 available to it, both standard and XL. For game balance purposes, don't you think that is a better situation than having a wall of engines that the player can just slap into the chassis after designing the perfect weapon load out? We're trying to limit the alpha striking here, not find 'reason' in why robots that don't actually exist cannot have full access to every available engine ever created. The number of different engines produced during WWII is staggering, but you couldn't just slap anything you wanted into a Tiger.

I'm just saying that I feel PGI is bending over backwards to appease the player base that wants full access to the Mech Lab and as much freedom as possible in Mech design, and in turn it has created a situation where they'll never balance this game. We, the players, will always work around their work around.

Players generally accept what is given to them. In World of Tanks you have two to four engine choices you unlock as you progress down the tech tree of a tank. We're all fine with that because the engine choices we're offered are set in stone. PGI should take the same approach to the Mech Lab. These are the limited number of engines you have to choose from. Enjoy.

[Mister Blastman]

Ya know, OP, I'm actually missing the time before Open Beta. That simple time where we had only a few chassis, brawling worked, there weren't twelve players per team and... people weren't chickens that hide behind rocks!

That's what I miss. All the action. The glory. Now it is a stupid game of poke and play. That sucks.

But even then, when I wax rose nostalgia, my glasses are bespeckled with tinted mnemonic reminiscence. We still had convergence even then. And the game... was broken... even then.

Hark the 'mech overlords go! They pray at the altar of buffs and nerfs only to be granted their wishes but through that came sacrifice. For they stood before that cold granite slab and offered to it a lone forfeit. On it they placed the naked body of gameplay and core mechanics. They bound it tight and then, with clenched knuckles wrapped about their daggers' hilt, they slit it deep to the bone and bathed in that blood.

Heathens, the lot of them. Absent all respect, appreciation, they had none. They lapped it up and discarded the body as nothing but a shallow husk. Their Gods provided them with what they needed. Even if they were false Gods. Tossed in a paupers grave, it rots. The worms have it now, in its fine dirt nap it shall stay. And for us, we are all tainted forever by these transgressions.

Alas, these quirks... they are the product of those heathens that bred. And here we are now, calling for repentance, yet it seems the 'mech Gods don't hear us. What else must be sacrificed to right this curse?


In other words... I'm tired too of these quirks. And buffs, and nerfs, and silly systems. When all that needed to be changed a long time ago were the core mechanics of convergence. And never should twelve players a team been implemented. Not with perfect convergence and focus fire. It's madness!

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 April 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

I am the average player.. actually slightly below average. No matter what someone will always beat someone else. We cannot all be the best, but we can always try our best and accept teh result.

Doesn't this mean with out a reason? TT engine choices were designed to fit the hex movement system. A Mech could not have 4.5 walking points on a map.

If you think about it, yes, it means without a "reason" (though if you check that is ONE definition). I'm pretty obviously saying form a "IRL" type perspective there is no reason a mech couldn't slap a 305 in instead of a 300. But because of simplifying things for game mechanics, they put the rule in. Because it made the game simpler and easier.

Regardless, your usual focus on minutiae means you miss the larger point of the post and the post I was quoting.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 21 April 2015 - 07:05 AM.

[Mikros04]

So quirks are a band-aid that only treats symptoms of the underlying problem? I see lots of people saying that, but only few offering solutions.

To me the underlying problem has no solution, unless you want to play with dice and cute little toys on your dining room table, because that's what the skeleton of this game is. There is no way to translate that to a video game.

If weapons become normalized for all chassis then we will be back where we were a year ago with few viable chassis. Who wants to go back to the days of nothing but CTF-3Ds and VTR-DSs every match? I sure don't.

So if you don't want people playing Dragon 1Ns or Wolverine 6Ks only because of the quirks, then tell me how to make them viable without? Tell me how they would possibly be viable if weapons were normalized?

So I don't have the answers either, but if you're going to spew off about how much something sucks, do us all a favor and offer a viable solution (so that people can piss all over that too

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 21 April 2015 - 07:02 AM, said:

Aren't you the same poster, that suggested this?






You've got some huge numbers in there.

-40% CD for LB10
-30% Heat for CERPPC
-40% CD for LRM 20s
-40% Heat for CERLLAS AND CERMLAS on the same mech
-40% Beam duration for all lasers



So are these numbers now too large?

Yes, nice job taking things out of context. Bravo. Pretty obviously that post was made in the REALITY of the current quirks. If Quirks were designed more intelligently, and more consistently implemented, the Summoner would not NEED that level to compete.

Guess you've never dealt with the reality of things while trying to work to make thing more ideal, in the long run?

So next pointless point you'd like to make Ulti? Seriously, for someone who can put out such long indepth posts, you skip and gloss over details like context and counterpoints that you don't have answers to with alarming regularity.

Mikros04, on 21 April 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

So quirks are a band-aid that only treats symptoms of the underlying problem? I see lots of people saying that, but only few offering solutions.

To me the underlying problem has no solution, unless you want to play with dice and cute little toys on your dining room table, because that's what the skeleton of this game is. There is no way to translate that to a video game.

If weapons become normalized for all chassis then we will be back where we were a year ago with few viable chassis. Who wants to go back to the days of nothing but CTF-3Ds and VTR-DSs every match? I sure don't.

So if you don't want people playing Dragon 1Ns or Wolverine 6Ks only because of the quirks, then tell me how to make them viable without? Tell me how they would possibly be viable if weapons were normalized?

So I don't have the answers either, but if you're going to spew off about how much something sucks, do us all a favor and offer a viable solution (so that people can piss all over that too

Most of us have posted viable (if not quick and easy) fixes since Closed Beta. Some are even touched on in here. It's rather counterproductive to the point of THIS thread to rehash them all here. You got a search function, feel free to employ it.

[Summon3r]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 April 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

Or are they lazy bandages covering over bigger problems, like poorly implemented and balanced weapons, and chassis that are poorly thought out, balanced and victims of atrocious scaling issues?

THIS!!!!!

the entirety of the OP's post is 100% bang on imho. quirks are nothing more then bandaids for laziness.

the only question i have is: do all mechs need to be balanced? do they really need to be equals? does an awesome need to perform on the same level as a warhawk (or out perform )?

of course each side needs to have its star performers...... but honestly for me the only FUN left in MWO is piloting things like the GAR WHK and SMN, i dispise with every fiber of my being the TBR and SCR the meta is beyond boring and i could care a less if i ever saw a laser vomit mech again in my life!

great post OP

[Mister Blastman]

Mikros04, on 21 April 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

So quirks are a band-aid that only treats symptoms of the underlying problem? I see lots of people saying that, but only few offering solutions.

To me the underlying problem has no solution, unless you want to play with dice and cute little toys on your dining room table, because that's what the skeleton of this game is. There is no way to translate that to a video game.

No! Just no! There are no dice needed!

Just remove convergence completely. Have there be none. Nothing goes to pinpoint. And nothing is random either. It shoots ahead. Let the players figure it out how they will hit things with sufficient effect.

[Mikros04]

Mister Blastman, on 21 April 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

Most of us have posted viable (if not quick and easy) fixes since Closed Beta. Some are even touched on in here. It's rather counterproductive to the point of THIS thread to rehash them all here. You got a search function, feel free to employ it.

No, MOST haven't. Some have. Normalized weapons and no more convergence? I'll have to respectfully disagree. I personally don't think removing convergence is going to be good for the health of this title.

EDIT: Tell me how to make the Dragon 1N viable in this environment without quirks. That's my question. None of the offered solutions I've read in these few pages explain that. And if you want me to go search for it in previous threads you should have bumped those instead of littering the forums with another one.

Edited by Mikros04, 21 April 2015 - 07:20 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Summon3r, on 21 April 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

THIS!!!!!

the entirety of the OP's post is 100% bang on imho. quirks are nothing more then bandaids for laziness.

the only question i have is: do all mechs need to be balanced? do they really need to be equals? does an awesome need to perform on the same level as a warhawk (or out perform )?

of course each side needs to have its star performers...... but honestly for me the only FUN left in MWO is piloting things like the GAR WHK and SMN, i dispise with every fiber of my being the TBR and SCR the meta is beyond boring and i could care a less if i ever saw a laser vomit mech again in my life!

great post OP

Perfect Balance, heck no.

Perfect Imbalance, on the other hand, is the ideal.

All Mechs should be viable against one another, to the point where better skill should allow a lesser mech to best a better mech with a worse pilot. And not talking Comp vs Underhive (As we all know players who could take a pre-quirk locust and beat a bad in a Timberwolf). But two relatively similar skill level players, but not equal.
And I got no issue with quirks being used as a final finishing touch to make that happen. But I do dislike them relying on quirks to make stuff viable.

Mikros04, on 21 April 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

No, MOST of you haven't. Some have. Normalized weapons and no more convergence? I'll have to respectfully disagree. I personally don't think removing convergence is going to be good for the health of this title.

EDIT: Tell me how to make the Dragon 1N viable in this environment without quirks. That's my question. None of the offered solutions I've read in these few pages explain that. And if you want me to go search for it in previous threads you should have bumped those instead of littering the forums with another one.

I can't fully agree with this. The delayed convergence we had in CB, IMO was just about right. (Even if hitreg back then made today's hitreg look golden, lol). Really a shame they can't seem to make delayed convergence and HSR coexist.

[Mister Blastman]

Mikros04, on 21 April 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

No, MOST of you haven't. Some have. Normalized weapons and no more convergence? I'll have to respectfully disagree. I personally don't think removing convergence is going to be good for the health of this title.

Well I personally disagree! Twenty years of Mechwarrior experience I have and the sands of time are clear on one thing--Convergence is the demon in the cupboard! It must be exterminated with tyrannical vengeance and only then will our dishes be clean enough to enjoy a cup of tea over a syrupy plate of tasty french toast.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 21 April 2015 - 07:22 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Have to say quirks have gone nuts, as in sectionable. nuts

But then haven't we been saying for ages that core issues need to be adressed, and pgi nod sagely, and them come up with an idea like quirks, and because it kind of worked, have gone bat **** crazy with it

[El Bandito]

[kapusta11]

Mikros04, on 21 April 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

So quirks are a band-aid that only treats symptoms of the underlying problem? I see lots of people saying that, but only few offering solutions.

Because community (a small part of it) while knowing what's the underlying problem is is divided about how it should be fixed, everyone thinks he's a great game designer and it's easy to talk without taking responsibility. For PGI it's just a business, people complain - make a look like you're trying to fix something, worked for the last 3 years.

[Mikros04]

Mister Blastman, on 21 April 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

Twenty years of Mechwarrior experience I have and the sands of time are clear

I too have the same experience, but this isn't just about us. For me a huge part of this is getting new players to want to keep coming back and make this title stronger. If we just relied on us 20 year vets this game will be dead before we know it and it'll be another 10 years before we get another MW title.

Edited by Mikros04, 21 April 2015 - 07:27 AM.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

Yes, nice job taking things out of context. Bravo. Pretty obviously that post was made in the REALITY of the current quirks. If Quirks were designed more intelligently, and more consistently implemented, the Summoner would not NEED that level to compete.

I didn't take anything out of context.

I am asking you flat out if you now think those numbers that you suggested are too big.



I can't give an in-depth post if don't know where you stand on your own back and forth wanting mega-quirks for the Summoner while also wanting to tone down other mechs.

Bishop Steiner, on 21 April 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

Guess you've never dealt with the reality of things while trying to work to make thing more ideal, in the long run?


So next pointless point you'd like to make Ulti? Seriously, for someone who can put out such long indepth posts, you skip and gloss over details like context and counterpoints that you don't have answers to with alarming regularity.

Could you have made any more of a knee jerk reaction response?




I'm asking you if you now think those numbers you suggested would be too large.


You could have answered it calmly, or you could flip out and attack me personally.



Why did you choose the latter?

[SaltBeef]

Armor values never had a slope , material , actual strength scale just number values. PGI can set structure armor values any way they want and to any mech and it would not break TT as it never was written in. Armor that is flat like a panel 3 inches thick steel is less effective than plate that is installed at a 39 degree angle. 39 degree angled armor then become more affective against ballistics from the front but weaker against top attack or angle trajectory round missiles bombs. Preformed shaped armor more effective could vary mech to mech regardless of size if better designed.

Edited by SaltBeef, 21 April 2015 - 07:32 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Mikros04, on 21 April 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

I too have the same experience, but this isn't just about us. This is about getting new players to want to come back and make this title stronger. If we just relied on us 20 year vets this game will be dead before we know it and it'll be another 10 years before we get another MW title.

It is already dead. 'Tis clear the poison has already been drunk. The reflex is delayed, but the result is the same.

It isn't too late... the antidote can still be administered.


People are sick of:

1. The crappy matchmaker (12-2 rolls are fun [barely] when you're on the 12 team... but are horrific on the 2 side)

2. Convergence and high alpha damage

3. Hide and poke

4. Cowering behind rocks

5. Twelve 'mechs per team (as this contributes to all of the above)

6. Lack of maps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <- HERE FOLKS IS A BIG ONE (User made maps, anyone?)

7. Lack of emergent gameplay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <- Exhibit B FOLKS! Maps with choke points SUCK. See: MW:LL Maps and gamplay for the antidote

It's the same old crap, over and over again. Frankly people are tired of it. We know what this game really needs--but we are forbidden from saying the word here on these forums.

[Summon3r]

oh and more thing, agree with all the convergence people it is single largest issue within the game.

partial solution to me would be to have some recoil from certain weapons. not exactly sure the solution laser vomit

[Felbombling]

Mikros04, on 21 April 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

So quirks are a band-aid that only treats symptoms of the underlying problem? I see lots of people saying that, but only few offering solutions.

To me the underlying problem has no solution, unless you want to play with dice and cute little toys on your dining room table, because that's what the skeleton of this game is. There is no way to translate that to a video game.

Not too sure if you were around during the Beta days, Mikros04, but the forums were fantastic with people making detailed posts trying to change PGI's thinking on the core game mechanics. I will say this... every meta phase of this game was predicted by the player base before it happened. Pop-tarting, pin-point front loaded alpha striking, LRMpocalypse... all of them. People offered solutions with charts, graphs, furry woodland creatures. You name it. PGI just kept their foot on the gas and went with what they thought up before the first line of code was written. Here we are today, talking about quirks. Go figure.