95 replies to this topic

[Lawrence Elsa]

Okay, make that the second biggest reason. But still, we need

Communication

The amount of IS players using TS are way higher than the amount not. The houses have hub servers with no locked channels with short or no passwords. They have unit leaders either idling or leading groups in those servers to turn pugs into tools of war, or even new recruits.

• Kurita has a hub server,
  
• FRR has a hub server,
  
• Steiner has a hub server
  
• even Davion (who has no active front against the clans) has a hub server.

Now look at the clans

• CWI has a server
  
• SWOL has a server
  
• CWDG has a server, and so on

But there is no Clan Wolf primary hub, Nor a Ghost Bear, or Smoke Jaguar.

But we do have this:

Teamspeak3 server:stranamechty.info

password:StranaMechty

If we can get some unit leaders, officers or moderators to keep an eye on the channels, then we can truly unify the clans and even turn multi-clan PUG teams into 12-mans with communication and coordination.

Quote

But what about VOIP?

A lot of people mute VOIP right off the bat just because of the audio quality, let alone what some less polite people may be saying. I have been told multiple times when commanding that no one can understand me when I talk on VOIP, and this might just be due to individual client settings. Hopefully this will be changed, but for now we have limitations.

I hope for the sake of all the clans that we stop resenting our Pick-Up-Group players, and start appreciating what sheer numbers and simple communication can do. The Inner-Sphere certainly has...

UPDATES:
So far I have gathered that while Community Warfare certainly has room for improvement in the terms of population and planetary attack cycles, a majority agrees that there is a lack of organized teams or cross-unit participation.
Points made

• High cost of entry for clan mechs
  
• Jade Falcons have a hub server
  
• Many new players to CW (or old returning ones) had the chance to play with veterans and learn a lot
  
• If there is even one more group attacking on a world, it is near impossible to re-take territory
  
• The April 21st patch will be equalizing drop weight on both sides.
  
• The nature of counter-attack and defense game modes.

Edited by Lawrence Elsa, 02 April 2015 - 09:56 PM.

[Tarogato]

I think communication is less of the problem...

more of the problem is that Clans got outnumbered this weekend because the challenge brought in floods upon floods of Innersphere players and the matchmaking system biases factions fielding a larger population. We brought this to Russ' attention and it's being fixed for the April 21st patch and continuing to be discussed.

[Lawrence Elsa]

Tarogato, on 01 April 2015 - 02:03 AM, said:

I think communication is less of the problem...

more of the problem is that Clans got outnumbered this weekend because the challenge brought in floods upon floods of Innersphere players and the matchmaking system biases factions fielding a larger population. We brought this to Russ' attention and it's being fixed for the April 21st patch and continuing to be discussed.

Great point! but why IS and not clan? Because playing as a clan pug sucks. Trust me.
I've played as an IS pug for 1 week just to see the difference. I got invited to join the Kurita server just 2 games in and Davion the moment I dropped on one of their plannets. The difference was day-and-night once people started working together. Yes, CWI does the same thing, their members have to be drug down into whatever channel we're playing in rather than joining the channel on their own because it's locked (we've had spy issues)

Star Wolves invite PUGS all the time, and none of them joined, and... well, Delta Galaxy has a reputation for unfriendliness even though they have some awesome guys like Summon3r and 3CLIPZ3 with them.

The issue isn't so much the IS and the fact they have a great way of including PUGs so much as it its the Clans and the lack of unity.

EDIT: I forgot that Clan mechs are also expensive, and their trial mechs are stock, thus encouraging more new players to go IS...
so that could be why the population bias went IS, but I still think inclusivity and friendlyness is going to make the difference in your pugs winning matches against ours.

Edited by Lawrence Elsa, 01 April 2015 - 03:01 AM.

[GotitN4U]

If I might refer the Op to this thread http://mwomercs.com/...munication-hub/ used by a numerous Falcon units and Soloist at ts.clanjadefalcon.com (direct IP 63.210.145.69:9171)

Edited by GotitN4U, 01 April 2015 - 02:37 AM.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Not a problem with JF, getting invited to TS servers almost every game. 95% listen ingame VOIP, 50% using it actively.
single biggest issue with losing planet is that we don't have enough players, often 4-5 more enemy queues fighting over a planet.

edit: seems i was right, CW is flawed, a single enemy queue more makes it impossible to hold a planet.
full story: http://mwomercs.com/...74#entry4332374

Edited by LOADED, 02 April 2015 - 08:32 AM.

[Spitalier]

See it from a different side. Maybe the Clan PUG`s want to be like a real Clan-Warrior who needs to excell on hisself in one on one. Forging hie legacy and be choosen for breeding. And The Inner-Sphere Guys are not that Warriorhonor driven and like it to fight as a team for... yeah let the other guys die befor myself so that i can enjoy my retirement benefits.

Okay back to the Topic.
To actually talk to your team is more worth then it seems. I always play with my friends on our own TS Server and sometimes we invite some random guy who wants to play with us. It is more fun and not to have to wirte all the time and get kicked in your butt during that time helps a lot. So Any Clan PUG who reads this, don`t be shy and talk to your people and get active. You will have more fun and in the end we will all have more fun. Even us IS players.

[Vxheous]

LOADED, on 01 April 2015 - 02:35 AM, said:

Not a problem with JF, getting invited to TS servers almost every game. 95% listen ingame VOIP, 50% using it actively.
single biggest issue with losing planet is that we don't have enough players, often 4-5 more enemy queues fighting over a planet.

It is not the invite that is the problem, every game I drop into, I send out my unit (SWOL)s TS, the problem is that the pugs refuse to join it, or even use the built in VOIP (which has serious clarity issues).

[GotitN4U]

Quote

It is not the invite that is the problem, every game I drop into, I send out my unit (SWOL)s TS, the problem is that the pugs refuse to join it, or even use the built in VOIP (which has serious clarity issues).

Really I always see New player in our TS from pug drops. But then again we have some of the Best Pug whispers in the Known Galaxy's.

[Lawrence Elsa]

Hm... Looks like I was wrong about the falcons, so I apologize. Still, more Clan unity and encouraging our tag-along players will be more beneficial to our cause.

[Lily from animove]

Lawrence Elsa, on 01 April 2015 - 01:53 AM, said:

Communication

The amount of IS players using TS are way higher than the amount not. The houses have hub servers with no locked channels with short or no passwords. They have unit leaders either idling or leading groups in those servers to turn pugs into tools of war, or even new recruits.

• Kurita has a hub server,
  
• FRR has a hub server,
  
• Steiner has a hub server
  
• even Davion (who has no active front against the clans) has a hub server.

Now look at the clans

• CWI has a server
  
• SWOL has a server
  
• CWDG has a server, and so on

But there is no Clan Wolf primary hub, Nor a Jade Falcon, Ghost Bear, or Smoke Jaguar.

But we do have this:

Teamspeak3 server:stranamechty.info

password:StranaMechty

If we can get some unit leaders, officers or moderators to keep an eye on the channels, then we can truly unify the clans and even turn multi-clan PUG teams into 12-mans with communication and coordination.


A lot of people mute VOIP right off the bat just because of the audio quality, let alone what some less polite people may be saying. I have been told multiple times when commanding that no one can understand me when I talk on VOIP, and this might just be due to individual client settings. Hopefully this will be changed, but for now we have limitations.

I hope for the sake of all the clans that we stop resenting our Pick-Up-Group players, and start appreciating what sheer numbers and simple communication can do. The Inner-Sphere certainly has...

No thats not the reason, 3 of 17 macthes out of my 20 were pug vs pug games that ahve been won by IS, and I doubt they were on any hub comms, both sides were just pugs.

The reason is quirked IS mechs,

before the challange clanners had nearly no puggers compared to IS, and so Is was losing, Is got buffed. Now the event flooded puggers on both sides. And now you see with equally skilled pilots on both sides, the IS winnign because they do have better mechs.

before the event competent IS pilots proofed that SI emchs were fine all the time, and got beatsmode after quirks, yet puggers still failed to use them right. Now when you have both "fail to use them right" users on both sides, the better mechs just dominate, which is in many cases IS mechs. Because clanpuggers come with gargoylse and MLX and all the abyssimal bad mechs. But IS mechs were buffed to counter TBR's and SCRS.

Some clanmechs have even as clans were introcued be the worst mechs ever, even before IS quirks. And those mechs have yet not been buffed, and those emchs are used by the event puggers. I was asking around who got trial mechs and which ones, and scoreboard results and their answers where overhelming fitting and worth to cry.

What has to be doen is buffing the bad clanmechs to also a viable level, so that puggers not kowing what mechs are good have somewhat a chance to not having lost with a bad C-build vs a bad IS build. because even bad IS bulds are now better than the trashy mechs clans have.

I wonder what clanmechs Russ has on his list for the april.

Edited by Lily from animove, 01 April 2015 - 03:19 AM.

[Lawrence Elsa]

Lily from animove, on 01 April 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

No thats not the reason, 3 of 17 macthes out of my 20 were pug vs pug games that ahve been won by IS, and I doubt they were on any hub comms, both sides were just pugs.

The reason is quirked IS mechs,

What has to be doen is buffing the bad clanmechs to also a viable level, so that puggers not kowing what mechs are good have somewhat a chance to not having lost with a bad C-build vs a bad IS build. because even bad IS bulds are now better than the trashy mechs clans have.

I wonder what clanmechs Russ has on his list for the april.

I am well aware that the Stalker 4N has some really Ludicrous quirks, as well as the Dragon-1N, Huginn, and a lot of Firestarters (arguably the Hunchback-4G, a few battlemasters and wolverines can be lumped in) But I have seen it with my own eyes. PUG teams never have their drop-decks in synch to where their tonnage and speed matches every wave, their whole team never moves to the same grid location (especially not all at once) and they rarely if ever focus on the same target every time it reaches LOS. Every team I have fought since the start of the even has done that unless we're the attacking team, and the whole side is spread out across 3 or more houses.

When the call is made to push, some people will back up into us when artillery is put down, getting the whole team bottle-necked, and killed. When Some people rush out to re-inforce when the team is dying, they get killed, thus making some pilots lose all of their mechs before even half of their team's mechs are gone. Things like this can cripple an entire team, and that is why communication, and more improvidently cooperation is key to surviving. That Staler-4N won't do much good against 2 med-pulse/streak storm-crows... or even one of them really, and that Dragon-1N becomes useless once a whole team blows it's arm off when it pokes around a corner.

They have quirks, and they have tonnage advantages, and I might even go so far to say the Meta drop-decks for the IS will trump a Clan one when it comes to raw damage, armor, and speed; But If you never give the enemy team the chance to use them the way they're supposed to be used, than it won't matter if they have better mechs, because no one mech is better at dueling every other mech, and we need planning and strategy to be able to get them caught in a less favorable situation for their mechs' build.

Edited by Lawrence Elsa, 01 April 2015 - 04:09 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Lawrence Elsa, on 01 April 2015 - 03:59 AM, said:

I am well aware that the Stalker 4N has some really Ludicrous quirks, as well as the Dragon-1N, Huginn, and a lot of Firestarters (arguably the Hunchback-4G, a few battlemasters and wolverines can be lumped in) But I have seen it with my own eyes. PUG teams never have their drop-decks in synch to where their tonnage and speed matches every wave, their whole team never moves to the same grid location (especially not all at once) and they rarely if ever focus on the same target every time it reaches LOS. Every team I have fought since the start of the even has done that unless we're the attacking team, and the whole side is spread out across 3 or more houses.

When the call is made to push, some people will back up into us when artillery is put down, getting the whole team bottle-necked, and killed. When Some people rush out to re-inforce when the team is dying, they get killed, thus making some pilots lose all of their mechs before even half of their team's mechs are gone. Things like this can cripple an entire team, and that is why communication, and more improvidently cooperation is key to surviving. That Staler-4N won't do much good against 2 med-pulse/streak storm-crows... or even one of them really, and that Dragon-1N becomes useless once a whole team blows it's arm off when it pokes around a corner.

They have quirks, and they have tonnage advantages, and I might even go so far to say the Meta drop-decks for the IS will trump a Clan one when it comes to raw damage, armor, and speed; But If you never give the enemy team the chance to use them the way they're supposed to be used, than it won't matter if they have better mechs, because no one mech is better at dueling every other mech, and we need planning and strategy to be able to get them caught in a less favorable situation for their mechs' build.

you think newbies and puggers that use trial emchs even know where mechs ahve their wepaons and what arm too aim on a dragon?

I doubt you know what the lower end pug skill truly looks like. CW ame me see this because in solo and grp queue I get elo matches, and people there are soemtimes bad, but not as reliable bad as the majority of puggers not having any idea about what they do.

yet ontop you want them to counter the stalkers supposed playstyle? That is at this point of these people out of scale, and you can be happy if they even know what torso twisting means. You already talk about experienced MWO players. But this is not how the average pugger plays, thats maybe 4 out of 12 puggers being like that, th erets is just walk, point at opponent and shoot what is able to shoot.

[Kirito Kerenksy]

Oh snap, I though eSeifer was calling the puppies out on just being bad when he said "What, don't you guys don't have a hub server?" I'm honestly surprised the pups even made it this far without a hub. I used to suck until I started gaming with NS and NKVA, and they're all pretty chill guys on top of being pretty damn clever.

[Lawrence Elsa]

Lily from animove, on 01 April 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:

you think newbies and puggers that use trial emchs even know where mechs ahve their wepaons and what arm too aim on a dragon? I doubt you know what the lower end pug skill truly looks like. CW ame me see this because in solo and grp queue I get elo matches, and people there are soemtimes bad, but not as reliable bad as the majority of puggers not having any idea about what they do. yet ontop you want them to counter the stalkers supposed playstyle? That is at this point of these people out of scale, and you can be happy if they even know what torso twisting means. You already talk about experienced MWO players. But this is not how the average pugger plays, thats maybe 4 out of 12 puggers being like that, th erets is just walk, point at opponent and shoot what is able to shoot.

Then let's teach them! Let's show them where to aim, what to call, help them learn the Phonetic Alphabet and what to put on their mech!
Like I said, we need to stop resenting them and start encouraging them and showing them the ropes! Yes, they need to participate, but we need to be willing to accept if they do. Send them links to good mwo.smurfy-net.de builds, tell them what to shoot for on certain meta-mechs, show them the places in CW where you have the most cover and vantage points!

[Skaav]

First of, chances are, if you play in a pug, that you WONT face any other pug's (unless you attack, which most Pugs don't do, because a lot of Players won't even know how to attack a Planet...)

Secondly, Quirked IS Mechs being the problem here is the most RIDICULOUS thing i have ever heard, closely followed by the argument that Clan Trials are only Stock so the IS Champions are better...
Clanners currently have the 4 Best Mechs in the Game, TBR, SCR, HBR, DWF , PERIOD
Even most of the "bad" Clan Mechs are still way way way better than the worst IS Mechs or even on par with the better ones. The Stalker is currently the only Mech that can REALLY keep up with clan Machines, and only in his respective Optimal Ranges, which are far more limited than those of any Clan Chassis.
Lets look at the Dragon 1N, another Mech mentioned here...
A 1N will carry 2 AC'5s, a PPC and (if you want to drop cw with it) at least 7 Tons of ammo (210 shots). To achieve this, you need an XL engine if you want to stay at any kind of reasonable speed, So basically, i now have 4 Zones on my Mech ( respectively to my prior 2 ) that ANY of the Clan Mechs listed above could open up with 2 Alphas and kill me with the third.... At the same time I am reliant on Ammo, am still slower than most of my opponents and dont even have the same firepower... and you are telling me that this Mech is one of the Reasons you are not winning in CW?

[Lawrence Elsa]

Skaav, on 01 April 2015 - 04:41 AM, said:

First of, chances are, if you play in a pug, that you WONT face any other pug's (unless you attack, which most Pugs don't do, because a lot of Players won't even know how to attack a Planet...)

Might wanna make it clear who you're replying to.

[Lord0fHats]

I agree that it's always best to have strong communication in CW, and that Kurita and FRR have in particular shown how effective coordination between large units can be, but;

Quote

Because playing as a clan pug sucks.

There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't think lacking a strong communication base is it.

In order;

-Starting Clan, has a high cost of entry compared to IS. Clan mechs are expensive, both in Cbills and MC. This makes it difficult for new players, or players who own no clan mechs, to actually build an effective drop deck. I'm sure we all agree clan trial mechs are bad even by trial mech standards. Unfortunately many clan players are stuck with them while grinding down the Cbills to acquire them unless they pay real cash which lets face it, not everyone is going to do. In this regard, the weekened even was useful. Free Crows for people who don't have a Clan mech of their own. IS mechs might need to buy lots of upgrades (to the point that really their mechs aren't that much cheaper than ours in cbills), but what would a new player rather have? That awesome Centurion they can get now, or the awesome Stormcrow that costs twice as much?

-Clans mechs are not new player friendly. Bear with me on this (get it, bear? I'm terrible...). Clan mechs might have great guns, generally better survivability, etc, but they can be really tough as a starter mech. Clan mechs run hot. Many of our weapons are bad. Armor rolling is a really important skill for surviving in Clan mechs and one that many long time players still haven't mastered. In TDM, a player can get by just running straight at someone and blasting them down and I've seen people think this makes them good even if they get so beat down in the process they will die to a stiff breeze. This doesn't work in CW, as 1 for 1 trading is undesirable.

-Mech variety. Clan mechs are small in number. To make it worse, many of our mechs are niche or just plain bad. The IS player can field a much wider array of mechs and more options is more fun plus more versatility in a drop deck. This will be alleviated a little hopefully once WIII is here. On top of this, not only do we have few good mechs to use, we have few good builds because our weapons aside from Lasers, Gauss, and Streaks, kind of suck. UACs are really only useful if you can stack them.

-Clans get nerfed frequently past few months. No one likes being nerfed, even if nerfs are deserved and sometimes they aren't but that's not my point here. Point is being nerfed is often disheartening.

-A lot of old IS mechs have gotten better. Who doesn't want to get back in the Stalker they stopped playing 2 years ago when it got the new Quirk hotness?

[Lawrence Elsa]

Lord0fHats, on 01 April 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

I agree that it's always best to have strong communication in CW, and that Kurita and FRR have in particular shown how effective coordination between large units can be, but; There are a lot of reasons for this, but I don't think lacking a strong communication base is it..

Good points all around, and it looks like a lot of things need to be changed at the entry level. That said, there is one major point missing in your thesis: PUGs don't attack a planet if they'll only get ghost drops, so I doubt its numbers alone. I fear that now the pugs who hated CW for the long wait times and gen-rushing have gotten into too many matches where they have earned tons of C-Bills by gaming with teams, and now that they have a taste for it, they won't stop.

[Kirito Kerenksy]

Lily from animove, on 01 April 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:

you think newbies and puggers that use trial emchs even know where mechs ahve their wepaons and what arm too aim on a dragon? I doubt you know what the lower end pug skill truly looks like. CW ame me see this because in solo and grp queue I get elo matches, and people there are soemtimes bad, but not as reliable bad as the majority of puggers not having any idea about what they do. yet ontop you want them to counter the stalkers supposed playstyle? That is at this point of these people out of scale, and you can be happy if they even know what torso twisting means. You already talk about experienced MWO players. But this is not how the average pugger plays, thats maybe 4 out of 12 puggers being like that, th erets is just walk, point at opponent and shoot what is able to shoot.

[redacted]

Edited by Story Time, 01 April 2015 - 10:50 AM.

[Lawrence Elsa]

Story Time, on 01 April 2015 - 06:00 AM, said:

img

Try to keep the topic about communi-- um... about the use of in-game communication please.