93 replies to this topic

[Soy]

DaZur, on 21 April 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

Interesting... Let me draw a real-world comparative to your premise and issue.

You are a good Poker player. Your friends are good Poker players. Your friend who is aspires to be a good Poker player decides to join you and your friends for a night of Texas Hold'm. Your friend finds himself getting schooled by your friends and loses his ass...

Questions:

• Should your friends have taken it easy on him because for all intent and purpose he was way out of his league playing with you and your friends for real money?
  
• Should you and your friend went down to the local community center and played a pick-up game with equally unskilled players?
  
• Would you have taken it easy on those pick-up players like you might expect your friends should have?

This is a competitive game, you largely knew by virtue of your Elo you were dragging him into the deep end of the pool. The results were as you anticipated yet you continue to play with your seasoned mechs versus maybe joining him with an alt. account... As such I see you as culpable for your friends experience as the environment that fostered this same experience.



I'm a good Poker player... I would never let my inexperience friends play with me and my friends because well... I'd like to keep them as my friends.

Just stop. This isn't a competitive game. It's not like poker, poker has risk vs reward. This game has none, it has enjoyment or no enjoyment. You still gain even if you AFK the entire round, there is no risk man. You are not gambling when you play this game, in a holistic sense.

Further, if you had read, I actually told my friend to play by himself, even though he only wants to try out the game with me, so we can pal around together... if I'm culpable for influencing him at all, give credit to the fact that I actually got him to play in the first place... either way, it's a ******* loss/loss. If I don't play with him, poof, there goes the social dynamic and tagteam aspect of his initial impression, with only the marginal benefit of not getting buttblasted if he dropped with me in 2 man group queue while he basically forever alone puglifes early stage of this game [which Paulconomy ramped up for no ******* reason whatsoever].

Edited by Soy, 21 April 2015 - 07:35 PM.

[DaZur]

Soy, on 21 April 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

Just stop. This isn't a competitive game. It's not like poker, poker has risk vs reward. This game has none, it has enjoyment or no enjoyment. You still gain even if you AFK the entire round, there is no risk man. You are not gambling when you play this game, in a holistic sense.

Further, if you had read, I actually told my friend to play by himself, even though he only wants to try out the game with me, so we can pal around together... if I'm culpable for influencing him at all, give credit to the fact that I actually got him to play in the first place... either way, it's a ******* loss/loss. If I don't play with him, poof, there goes the social dynamic and tagteam aspect of his initial impression, with only the marginal benefit of not getting buttblasted if he dropped with me in 2 man group queue while he basically forever alone puglifes early stage of this game [which Paulconomy ramped up for no ******* reason whatsoever].

Okay... Let's flip this.

• Would it be "fun" for you, being an experienced player to drop in a guppy pool with your greenhorn friend?
  
• Would it be fair to the opposing team for you with your experience to drop in the guppy pool?

I suspect the answer would / should be "no".

There's no easy answer to your dilemma without further fracturing what by everyone's account is a small player base.

Edited by DaZur, 21 April 2015 - 07:50 PM.

[Soy]

DaZur, on 21 April 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

Okay... Let's flip this.

• Would it be "fun" for you, being an experienced player to drop in a guppy pool with your greenhorn friend?
  
• Would it be fair to the opposing team for you with your experience to drop in the guppy pool?

I suspect the answer would / should be "no".


There's no easy answer to your dilemma without further fracturing what by everyone's account is a small player base.

When it comes to friends, I'll go out of my way to benefit them, not myself... at least, sometimes... the dividends on that investment get returned later on with them hopefully sticking around and being at least a warm body, or hopefully a solid player...

Of course it wouldn't be fair or particularly fun to drop in guppy pool, but then again, nowhere in my post or replies have I suggested that I would want "2 man groups go in solo queue" or "cadet bonus newbies give free Elo immunity when holding their hand" etc etc.

It's not my dilemma, it's the game's. It's the community's. We all go out of our way to put this game into a positive light for prospective friends/gamers who sound interested in it. I think the most logical idea, the most obvious and practical one, is to enhance the new player experience more, raise the fun factor or something... how, dunno.

I'm asking questions here, look at thread title - I don't have any amazing answers, thus no campaigning or agenda here cept to see more newbies stick around...

[Soy]

Here's a lil noodle to bake on.

Those of you reading, who have played for more than a year... do you remember your new player experience in MWO? Seriously. Do you?

I don't remember mine. Or, well...

...here's what I remember...

...I spent about a week or two just having a serious woody for a modern online MW. This was spent in 3 Jenners, mastering them. I never even liked Jenners. As far as actual combat recollections, all I recall is running around like a total dingus shooting medium lasers at catapult and atlas buttocks.

There's nothing there that I look back on and go "that was unique, immersive, and memorable". There is no experience. There is only early-game grind. And nostalgic woody cuz it was "fresh MW".

Please, if you have a different story to tell, share it. I'd like to know what was cool about it, no this isn't a snarky comment. Maybe it'll shed insight into things that can be enhanced for newbies or something...

PS - and yes I even chilled and dropped with random ppl like the rest of us goofballs in early beta on Comstar... but we were all still so wet behind the ears, nothing concrete socially yet had come about at least for me, so. Just sayin, I wasn't 'pug life alone man', so that's not an excuse for me at least why the NPE was so meh.

Edited by Soy, 21 April 2015 - 08:24 PM.

[Deathlike]

I discussed this a while back... when people were complaining about the small groups (2-4 man) where trying to get into the game with friends is killer because you are dropped into immediate hell... especially if you have high Elo.

I wrote posts about it, but let's be honest... PGI has never bothered to comment, answer, or mention it... and I'd love to help here but I've been so disappointed/distraught/depressed about the issue... I don't even know how I can answer it better than I did before.

Edited by Deathlike, 21 April 2015 - 08:17 PM.

[Ultimax]

Soy, on 21 April 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

...as I said in the OP...

...the example is, getting a friend who wants to try out MWO, who doesn't know BT/MW to this game, wants to group with you otherwise he's not interested in playing the game, you're in the position of grouping up with this person and watching them get obliterated.

There's no "sub 100" we're talking, day 1, sub nothing, brand spanking new, and they cannot get a good impression of the game with people who are established. Thus, that's a difficult way in particular to bring in new people, it's not exactly encouraging.

In reality I said to my friend, do solo drops and sit on TS with me and just chat about whats going on, you'll get more out of it to be honest. And he did. Which sucks, cuz he (and I) would like to play together without the round being a face-****. After he has some rounds under his belt then yeah we do some CW drops and it's bangbang, fun, good stuff, he has a mech, understands whats goin on, etc. But to go 2 man in public group queue right off the bat? Like what would I be doing, trying to make him quit as fast as possible?

Truth of the matter is, there are people who don't just jump into online multiplayer games with insane backlore and also arbitrary convoluted systems that make things even more convoluted than they already are, they want to wet their feet with someone holding their hand. And holding their hand means you'll be holding only a hand, cuz the rest of their body has evaporated into a bloody mist the second you look away at a dorito on peripheral.

I think some kind of a referral system where you bring someone in as a friend through a referral link or similar should allow a grace period where that new account can join you in a private lobby and allow you to duo in the solo queue for that players first 50 matches.

If they end up buying any MC or premium time or similar, your account gets some bonus like some mechbays, or premium time or a discount in the store, etc.

Just spit-balling

[DaZur]

1000% agreement that this game needs a soft entry level with a staged progression into the unregulated wilds... That said, like the real-world, I fear a codified person is typically hard-pressed to be equipped to deal with real-world pressures / situations.

IMHO I see MW:O in a similar light. No amount of entry-level preparation will adequately prepare a greenhorn to deal with some of the hard-core fanatical groups and and the higher-tier environment that is so prevalent in group play...

Only thing I can think of is to provide a cadet period "handicap" mechanic where in some way new players are insulated against making stupid mistakes and getting rolled.

I'm thinking possibly a temporary 25% cadet damage reduction or something... Something to keep them in fights long enough to learn from actually playing the game with vets, learning the ropes yet not being spanked so hard they see no benefit in continuing to play?

This way, when they burn through their cadet period they should theoretically have played enough to have purchased a mech, begun mastering it and have the necessary experience and knowledge to survive without the handicap...

Edited by DaZur, 21 April 2015 - 08:22 PM.

[Soy]

Ultimatum X, on 21 April 2015 - 08:18 PM, said:

I think some kind of a referral system where you bring someone in as a friend through a referral link or similar should allow a grace period where that new account can join you in a private lobby and allow you to duo in the solo queue for that players first 50 matches.

If they end up buying any MC or premium time or similar, your account gets some bonus like some mechbays, or premium time or a discount in the store, etc.

Just spit-balling

That's actually pretty ******* interesting, Ultimatum.

Like an 'invitational' private match or something.

Go on, more ideas like this plox folx... I didn't even read the part about "you get a bonus" that's whatever dude, do it for the children, not the dap...

Edited by Soy, 21 April 2015 - 08:21 PM.

[bar10jim]

Yes, this is an issue.
1) Competative and fun are not always the same thing.
2) The current implementation is brutal on two-man groups. They should have the option of dropping in either the group or the solo pug queues.

How about a story?

I've got a friend I used to drop with as a two-man, usually just to screw around with new builds, level mechs, etc. Then came the night we were fed to the SAME ten-man three games in a row. Twice opposing, once assisting. And it did ot matter at all what we did in any of the matches. The ten-man (featuring at least 3 names recognizeable to anyone who frequents the forums) did their ten-man roflstomp gg.

That wasn't the first such experience, but it was the last. He hasn't played in 3-4 months becuase the fun factor is entirely gone. In addition to dropping with me, he also loked to drop with his 11-year-old son. Well, his son quit playing because he can't drop with his dad anymore without getting turned into sausage in the group queue.

Quite simply, there needs to be another option.

[Ultimax]

Soy, on 21 April 2015 - 08:21 PM, said:

That's actually pretty ******* interesting, Ultimatum.

Like an 'invitational' private match or something.

Go on, more ideas like this plox folx... I didn't even read the part about "you get a bonus" that's whatever dude, do it for the children, not the dap...

I'm not really after a bonus to myself personally, it's just pretty much par for the course for F2P games and MMOs that want to build/maintain player population and make money.

It's less for me and you and that one or two good friends we'd bring in.


And more for the player that will work to bring in like 10 acquaintances hoping a few of them will net him a bonus.


More bodies = more people for us to shoot. That's a win as well.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 21 April 2015 - 08:25 PM.

[Soy]

This is a good idea, maybe not the numbers and tangible **** you're talking, but the spirit of it. Moar spitballs.

[TLBFestus]

DaZur, on 21 April 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

Interesting... Let me draw a real-world comparative to your premise and issue.

You are a good Poker player. Your friends are good Poker players. Your friend who is aspires to be a good Poker player decides to join you and your friends for a night of Texas Hold'm. Your friend finds himself getting schooled by your friends and loses his ass...

Questions:

• Should your friends have taken it easy on him because for all intent and purpose he was way out of his league playing with you and your friends for real money?
  
• Should you and your friend went down to the local community center and played a pick-up game with equally unskilled players?
  
• Would you have taken it easy on those pick-up players like you might expect your friends should have?

This is a competitive game, you largely knew by virtue of your Elo you were dragging him into the deep end of the pool. The results were as you anticipated yet you continue to play with your seasoned mechs versus maybe joining him with an alt. account... As such I see you as culpable for your friends experience as the environment that fostered this same experience.


I'm a good Poker player... I would never let my inexperience friends play with me and my friends because well... I'd like to keep them as my friends.

Dazur offers no solution to the problem of the new player experience in the game. I fail to see any point to his post other than to cheer the game and blame established players for having the nerve to try to encourage others to play.

Regardless of his "It's your fault because you have a higher ELO" argument, even IF you established an ALT account and scrubbed with him, the NPE would still suck horribly.

The fact is that many people like to play games WITH a friend or two. COOP is a big deal in games these days. MWO has that but at punishing levels of entry.

Choking off the supply of new players is just not sound business practice.

[Telmasa]

There *is* a plan to have a tutorial...at least before the steam launch if nothing else...unless I'm terribly mistaken about what I heard in the townhall.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Soy, on 21 April 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

...as I said in the OP...

...the example is, getting a friend who wants to try out MWO, who doesn't know BT/MW to this game, wants to group with you otherwise he's not interested in playing the game, you're in the position of grouping up with this person and watching them get obliterated.

There's no "sub 100" we're talking, day 1, sub nothing, brand spanking new, and they cannot get a good impression of the game with people who are established. Thus, that's a difficult way in particular to bring in new people, it's not exactly encouraging.

In reality I said to my friend, do solo drops and sit on TS with me and just chat about whats going on, you'll get more out of it to be honest. And he did. Which sucks, cuz he (and I) would like to play together without the round being a face-****. After he has some rounds under his belt then yeah we do some CW drops and it's bangbang, fun, good stuff, he has a mech, understands whats goin on, etc. But to go 2 man in public group queue right off the bat? Like what would I be doing, trying to make him quit as fast as possible?

Truth of the matter is, there are people who don't just jump into online multiplayer games with insane backlore and also arbitrary convoluted systems that make things even more convoluted than they already are, they want to wet their feet with someone holding their hand. And holding their hand means you'll be holding only a hand, cuz the rest of their body has evaporated into a bloody mist the second you look away at a dorito on peripheral.

Id like to see the % number of ppl who start the game for the first time ever (or seem to) that stay and pay vs the ppl that leave after their first try

[Telmasa]

Soy, on 21 April 2015 - 07:59 PM, said:

When it comes to friends, I'll go out of my way to benefit them, not myself... at least, sometimes... the dividends on that investment get returned later on with them hopefully sticking around and being at least a warm body, or hopefully a solid player...

Of course it wouldn't be fair or particularly fun to drop in guppy pool, but then again, nowhere in my post or replies have I suggested that I would want "2 man groups go in solo queue" or "cadet bonus newbies give free Elo immunity when holding their hand" etc etc.

It's not my dilemma, it's the game's. It's the community's. We all go out of our way to put this game into a positive light for prospective friends/gamers who sound interested in it. I think the most logical idea, the most obvious and practical one, is to enhance the new player experience more, raise the fun factor or something... how, dunno.

I'm asking questions here, look at thread title - I don't have any amazing answers, thus no campaigning or agenda here cept to see more newbies stick around...

Also, playing devils advocate (cause I agree with your overall sentiment):

What's to stop a player from grouping up with newbies in order to farm off of easier ELO?

Hell, it'd even attract *me*, because it'd probably mean I'd see less consumable spam & "metamech" bandwagon mechs running around.

(So why don't I go running around just losing on purpose? Well...reasons. Ego, for one.)

[Soy]

Telmasa, on 21 April 2015 - 08:58 PM, said:

Also, playing devils advocate (cause I agree with your overall sentiment):

What's to stop a player from grouping up with newbies in order to farm off of easier ELO?

Hell, it'd even attract *me*, because it'd probably mean I'd see less consumable spam & "metamech" bandwagon mechs running around.

(So why don't I go running around just losing on purpose? Well...reasons. Ego, for one.)

Soy, on 21 April 2015 - 07:59 PM, said:

Of course it wouldn't be fair or particularly fun to drop in guppy pool, but then again, nowhere in my post or replies have I suggested that I would want "2 man groups go in solo queue" or "cadet bonus newbies give free Elo immunity when holding their hand" etc etc.

[DaZur]

TLBFestus, on 21 April 2015 - 08:32 PM, said:

Dazur offers no solution to the problem of the new player experience in the game. I fail to see any point to his post other than to cheer the game and blame established players for having the nerve to try to encourage others to play.

Regardless of his "It's your fault because you have a higher ELO" argument, even IF you established an ALT account and scrubbed with him, the NPE would still suck horribly.

The fact is that many people like to play games WITH a friend or two. COOP is a big deal in games these days. MWO has that but at punishing levels of entry.

Choking off the supply of new players is just not sound business practice.

No?

DaZur, on 21 April 2015 - 08:20 PM, said:

Only thing I can think of is to provide a cadet period "handicap" mechanic where in some way new players are insulated against making stupid mistakes and getting rolled.

I'm thinking possibly a temporary 25% cadet damage reduction or something... Something to keep them in fights long enough to learn from actually playing the game with vets, learning the ropes yet not being spanked so hard they see no benefit in continuing to play?

This way, when they burn through their cadet period they should theoretically have played enough to have purchased a mech, begun mastering it and have the necessary experience and knowledge to survive without the handicap...

[LT. HARDCASE]

Make group queue 4 max, move 2 man to solo queue.

[Triordinant]

Soy, on 21 April 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

Ok, so, I've thought about this for a long time. Long time. Since beta.

The game could (like every game) always use new players, right?

Then explain to me how it's a good idea to bring a friend to the game, have him group with you, 2 man drop into group queue, with your Elo, which may be high, while said player uses a trial mech and gets ***-pumped.

Has this ever been properly explained?

When the best way to get a friend to try the game with you is to make an alt account to derp around with... is that a problem to anyone?

Before CW, players would try to introduce their friends, partners, siblings or offspring to MWO by "sheparding" them in the group queue only to get curbstomped over and over again by well-trained competitive teams using maxed out coordinated 'mechs. Nowadays, when the comp Units are playing CW, this doesn't happen anywhere near as much. Hint: if you're a small casual group or a 2-man, drop into the public group queue in the hours just before the CW ceasefires.

[Soy]

Triordinant, on 21 April 2015 - 09:11 PM, said:

Hint: if you're a small casual group or a 2-man, drop into the public group queue in the hours just before the CW ceasefires.

Prolly not a bad idea for some cats. I think if CW was more 'final' then it'd be more predictable, in some other types of games that sort of skate-around is fairly practical.