93 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 21 April 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

Hasnt the new player experience historically BEEN horrifying in general?

Its only as horrible as the new player thinks they are going to be good at this game from teh starting gun.

Until MWO I never online gamed. Not a single MMO ever. So not knowing how to On line game I expected to be fresh meat, the easy kill. Why do people think they will be able to walk in and start owning face from teh starting line?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 April 2015 - 03:26 AM.

[Soy]

That's very noble and respectable Joseph, but I take it you had a somewhat clear understanding in terms of expectations walking in, seeing as you're... an... experienced TT player?

Let's imagine someone who, the last time they played a MechWarrior, was last millenium. So like 10, 15 years have passed and they see MWO. Cool, they think. But then maybe they start playing it and wonder what ghost heat is... wonder about the Urbie's stock engine weight... etc...

...point is, even if you have the right attitude like you do Joseph, I can still see some people who might even be familiar with BT/MW and yet still get a bad taste in their mouth as a first impression, without something going "pow!" and making them get hooked. I get it that some of us get hooked by the end of the first round, but maybe that's not everyone...

[Joseph Mallan]

Soy, on 22 April 2015 - 03:31 AM, said:

That's very noble and respectable Joseph, but I take it you had a somewhat clear understanding in terms of expectations walking in, seeing as you're... an... experienced TT player?

Let's imagine someone who, the last time they played a MechWarrior, was last millenium. So like 10, 15 years have passed and they see MWO. Cool, they think. But then maybe they start playing it and wonder what ghost heat is... wonder about the Urbie's stock engine weight... etc...

...point is, even if you have the right attitude like you do Joseph, I can still see some people who might even be familiar with BT/MW and yet still get a bad taste in their mouth as a first impression, without something going "pow!" and making them get hooked. I get it that some of us get hooked by the end of the first round, but maybe that's not everyone...

Yes and even if PGI held everyone's hand and walked them through it like a 5 year old, people would still cry foul. its just how it is. Even if it goes POW this game will not be for everyone. No game is, nothing will ever be.

I would be just as frustrated walking into CoD, SoCom or Borderlands. I would die just as often. I would either like the game or I wouldn't.

TT is nothing like a video game. But it has to taste like the BattleTech universe to be a MechWarrior game. To one degree or another most MWGames did.

[Lanancuras]

I agree with the OP, I don't even bother bringing my friends into this game as I doubt they'll have as much patience for this as I do and they'll mostly want to play with me anyway.

A 2 player team isn't going to break the solo queue as long the matchmaker properly takes ELO into account. It's not like 12 pugs don't collaborate at all; 2 players collaborating a bit more isn't going to pose a major offset when looking at all the 24 people playing.

Many games have separate queues for large groups, but 2 man groups are always mixed among the solo queuers in these games (even in RTS games like Starcraft 2 among others you'll be able to join solo queue 4versus4 matches with a 2 man premade). MWO has TWELVE versus twelve and is the only team-based game I know of that doesn't mix 2 player groups in the solo queue.

Edited by Lanancuras, 22 April 2015 - 03:52 AM.

[Hotthedd]

I do not think it would be too rare.

I'm in a small unit. Sometimes there might only be 2 of us on during off peak hours. We have no problem dropping in the group queue, and this would be the situation where a 2 man group SHOULDN'T be dropping in the solo queue. I solo a lot, due to time constraints, and would not have a problem dropping solo in the group queue.

So, why not have a feature that allows the player or 2 man group the ability to choose?

Edit: This is in response to Widowmaker's post below

Edited by Hotthedd, 22 April 2015 - 04:43 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Widowmaker1981, on 22 April 2015 - 12:52 AM, said:

While i personally wouldnt have a problem with 2 mans in the solo, that solution would be the same as disallowing 10 mans, as the queue time would be close to infinite, it would be VERY rare for a 2 man to choose the group queue.

[Ace Selin]

OP admits to having autism so cant think out of the box....

Clues dude ill give you some.

Play in group Q with new alt account with him.
Play in CW with him where there is no ELO and hell learn easily enough and has 4 mechs each turn to do it.
Play with premium time and teach him.
Have him watch youutube vids of guys playing for info & to read the forums.

Youre obviously too slow to comprehend things like no groups in PUG Q, it was horrible before and no one in PUGland wants 2 mans back. Also no 2 mans means no 10 mans in group Q.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ace Selin, on 22 April 2015 - 04:54 AM, said:

OP admits to having autism so cant think out of the box....

Clues dude ill give you some.

Play in group Q with new alt account with him.
Play in CW with him where there is no ELO and hell learn easily enough and has 4 mechs each turn to do it.
Play with premium time and teach him.
Have him watch youutube vids of guys playing for info & to read the forums.

Youre obviously too slow to comprehend things like no groups in PUG Q, it was horrible before and no one in PUGland wants 2 mans back. Also no 2 mans means no 10 mans in group Q.

Use the looking for a group button.

I play in PUGland and have no trouble with A two man on the other team.

[Sir Wulfrick]

DaZur, on 21 April 2015 - 08:20 PM, said:

1000% agreement that this game needs a soft entry level with a staged progression into the unregulated wilds... That said, like the real-world, I fear a codified person is typically hard-pressed to be equipped to deal with real-world pressures / situations.

IMHO I see MW:O in a similar light. No amount of entry-level preparation will adequately prepare a greenhorn to deal with some of the hard-core fanatical groups and and the higher-tier environment that is so prevalent in group play...

Only thing I can think of is to provide a cadet period "handicap" mechanic where in some way new players are insulated against making stupid mistakes and getting rolled.

I'm thinking possibly a temporary 25% cadet damage reduction or something... Something to keep them in fights long enough to learn from actually playing the game with vets, learning the ropes yet not being spanked so hard they see no benefit in continuing to play?

This way, when they burn through their cadet period they should theoretically have played enough to have purchased a mech, begun mastering it and have the necessary experience and knowledge to survive without the handicap...

I agree with this. I think the issue with the new player experience when players transition out of their Cadet period is not the absolute difficulty but the relative difficulty, i.e. it's the change in difficulty that's experienced by the player that's causing problems. Difficult games aren't intrinsically bad. MWO could be much more complex than it is now and with suitable tutorials learning the game to an acceptable level would be well within the reach of almost everyone who wants to play. The real problem is that those players, rather than transitioning gently in to the public queue, are liable to be immediately eaten alive in game after game after game. This is even more true of CW games than it is of normal matches. For the sake of player retention I think that the 'release valves' on the match maker need to be tightened up a bit. I know this would probably result in longer searches for games, but as it is I can't imagine many new players sticking around for very long once they slam in to the vertical learning cliff after their cadet period expires.

Ultimatum X, on 21 April 2015 - 08:18 PM, said:

I think some kind of a referral system where you bring someone in as a friend through a referral link or similar should allow a grace period where that new account can join you in a private lobby and allow you to duo in the solo queue for that players first 50 matches.

If they end up buying any MC or premium time or similar, your account gets some bonus like some mechbays, or premium time or a discount in the store, etc.

Just spit-balling

This is another excellent idea and would not only provide a great learning experience for new players but would also encourage and incentivise experienced players to help out newbies. Very nice idea.

[Soy]

Ace Selin, on 22 April 2015 - 04:54 AM, said:

OP admits to having autism so cant think out of the box....

Clues dude ill give you some.

Play in group Q with new alt account with him.
Play in CW with him where there is no ELO and hell learn easily enough and has 4 mechs each turn to do it.
Play with premium time and teach him.
Have him watch youutube vids of guys playing for info & to read the forums.

Youre obviously too slow to comprehend things like no groups in PUG Q, it was horrible before and no one in PUGland wants 2 mans back. Also no 2 mans means no 10 mans in group Q.

Look you stupid mongo - I've reiterated this several times, at no point am I suggesting groups for pug queue.

Seriously, please fall into a vat of acid today. You're wasting air.

Stop trolling the thread, get the **** out.

[Killian De Morte]

How about allowing you to invite a buddy into the training grounds so you can VOIP and practice together.
No Cbills or Xp - but you could fight bots together or face off against each other - practice duels my padawan !

Having some basic AI on the dumb static bots to move around and shoot in your general direction would help you work on LRM dodging and hitting a moving target. - virtually every other shooter has AI-bots !

You could also have static bases like in the main game with lasers and LRM pods as well to do ranged/positioning tactics.

Nothing will allow for training in full heat of battle - but getting the mechanics of moving/aiming/locking/twisting/jumping/overheating/chaining/focus-fire/using terrain and sight lines will help in the real thing.

[Sjorpha]

Soy, on 22 April 2015 - 12:04 AM, said:

Right...

Bringing someone into a big group isn't difficult... I can set him down with some of the best players in the game instantly... it's bangbang done ok lets roll... but if the person doesn't want to experience the game that way as their initial impression, that's their prerogative and right and I respect it and actually admire it... more than just bandwagoning with tryhards or underhivelings right off the bat... at least for the first couple sessions of play... that way they can really make their own opinions without people yapping in their ear (both positively and negatively).

Too much white noise - a couple people, that's a good way to experience the game for an initial impression, but I'm not so sure about piggy backing into a full deck of tryers or even casual derpers out the gate, tbh...

I agree with that, what you/we actually want is to drop as a pair in a fair and fun newbie friendly environment, but the whole point of your OP is that it doesn't work very well right now, was it not?

So until dropping in pairs is made easier, just running alongside a casually playing larger group will give the newb a better experience. I don't mean jumping on a tryhard group with serious coordination, I mean just playing and voiping as a pair but running together with a larger group of decent players that can be counted on to win their share of games. There are lot's of groups dropping casually without much prestige or dedicated coordination, but who can just carry you a bit for the evening by being decent players and friends.

I'm not saying it's what you want exactly, but it might be better than your friend just giving up on the game, right?

[Almond Brown]

Fuggles, on 21 April 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

yeah it sucks, you have to have a scrub account or scrub weight class. you can also sometimes get dragged down to their elo where people just stand in one spot like grazing cattle and dont move, the games take 10 minutes just to start and then the last 5 is like some special needs cripple fight.

yes i realize i sound like an a-hole saying this.

Actually you sound more like a degenerative disease saying that, but no worries, you fit right in these types of threads around here.

[Soy]

Sjorpha, on 22 April 2015 - 05:34 AM, said:

I agree with that, what you/we actually want is to drop as a pair in a fair and fun newbie friendly environment, but the whole point of your OP is that it doesn't work very well right now, was it not?

So until dropping in pairs is made easier, just running alongside a casually playing larger group will give the newb a better experience. I don't mean jumping on a tryhard group with serious coordination, I mean just playing and voiping as a pair but running together with a larger group of decent players that can be counted on to win their share of games. There are lot's of groups dropping casually without much prestige or dedicated coordination, but who can just carry you a bit for the evening by being decent players and friends.

I'm not saying it's what you want exactly, but it might be better than your friend just giving up on the game, right?

My example is a literal one but it's more about extrapolating it to the macro level of the community.

Potential players are slipping through the cracks for various reasons, and there's lots of great ideas and easy things that the game could have to make the new player experience better for all new players. Ones that arrive solo that don't know what BT/MW is, ones that are interested cuz a friend plays but aren't sure about just diving in solo, ones that want to step into the buzzsaw asap and boost thru as much grind as possible teamin up and gettin to mechin, etc.

Focus on the big picture.

What I "want" is my "friend" to "play". That's all. Dropping in group with him, showing him the ropes, whatever, it's all initial investment that doesn't even really concern me. The dividends on that investment come later if said player sticks around and hangs out, helps carry, yada yada. We need more players, period, that's what I want, that's all, nothing else, no agenda, no camera tricks, I'm not stumping for 2 mans in solo queue or anything like that.

Some good ideas have come forth already, whether or not PGI takes note or anything comes to fruition isn't in my wheelhouse cuz I'm just a simple player.

Big picture.

PS - Again, concerning my actual friend in the literal example...... I can put my buddy into a group instantly with a handful of some of the best players in the game. That's not what he wants. In fact, who the **** wants that. Seriously. Who wants to be carried? Do you stand around at work and let everyone else get their hands dirty while you kick tires? See what I mean? I understand why he feels the way he does. Who the **** wants to be carried in their first experience with anything; what's the point. It's supposed to be a challenge, a learning experience, not a benchwarming note-taking powwow.

Edited by Soy, 22 April 2015 - 05:53 AM.

[generalazure]

I guess the harsh ELO jump when teaming up with friends who are already established is quite normal for games with such systems (I used an alt account when a friend started LoL)... but in MWO it's just a part of the awesome new player experience (and not even the worst imho).

Here you also get hit reg that is significantly less reliable than what people are used to from other games (just hearing this has kept 2 of my friends from ever touching MWO), weapons that are just garbage and will always stays so because it's tradition and totally intransparent gameplay elements like ghost heat or actual heatsink efficiency.
Hell, the game itself doesn't even tell you that clan omnis have hardwired gear, you'll have to blow your cadet bonus to figure that one out. No way you can play this without smurfy...

On the bright side, there's less cheating going on and the playerbase is less of a cesspool than in other multiplayer games. But I doubt the majority stays long enough to notice.

[Sanctus Maleficus]

I'll preface this with "most trial mechs suck" However, if you're grouping with a new player (who we will refer to as the cadet), they are probably going to be in a trial mech. Perhaps grouping with a player that is still in the cadet training period is possible in two ways:

- grouping with a cadet in their training period, you may select one of your regular mechs, you're ELO will be taken into account in the matchmaker. MM drops you into the group queue.

- grouping with a cadet in their training period, you select to use a trial mech. Cadets elo is the only one that matters. Veteran elo is discounted. You can then be dropped as a 2 man into the solo queue.

Even a veteran player in a trial mech can still make a big difference, but a carry in most trial mechs is difficult even in the best of circumstances. The number of matches a cadet should get for this period could be changed. They could also have cadet specific faction icons so it's obvious where that player is in their training progression . Perhaps, as an example, first 25 matches they get a C-Bill bonus and after that they have another 25 matches that will still allow them to group with a veteran and elo not be taken into account without the C-Bill bonus. So they would have 50 matches available for being introduced to the game at whichever degree of severity they choose. I'm not a programmer so I don't know the logistics of these types of changes. Haha. that's my disclaimer.


As far as new player experience, I was introduced by a group of guys at work who played. I hadn't ever played a MW game until that point. I played in groups with them probably 5-10 matches of my first 25. Honestly, I learned the basics of the game there. (i.e. movement (legs separate from torso), weapon groups, different weapon system basics). The most useful tutorial to me would have been for building mechs. I had no idea what I was doing. I still have a few builds that I find where I'm like "WTF?" After my cadet bonus, I purchased a Trebuchet. Why? IDK. It was affordable with the meager sum I'd managed to save. I had nothing left over to customize with so I had to play it stock for a while. This was waaay before clans in the end of 2013 so it wasn't nearly as brutal then. Most of my work friends lost interest so I went looking for a unit...which is/was a super casual group for the most part. I found people with a little more experience, but mostly not any sort of useful help in learning the game better. I continued to primarily solo and suffered for it, but at some point it got better. I guess my point is, for me, a tutorial would have helped on day 1 of playing. Beyond that, the most valuable thing to me was trial and error and spending the time to learn the game for myself. I have also tried bringing friends into the game...in my experience...the most common thing i've run into is people expecting to be good from the first time they press 'w'. When that doesn't happen for them, they give up. I get that sentiment, but at the same time, these are people that I know would have been good at the game if they had given it more than the "welp, i'm not good. I don't want to play" You can't fix that regardless of the way you address new player experience.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Soy, on 21 April 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

Ok, so, I've thought about this for a long time. Long time. Since beta.

The game could (like every game) always use new players, right?

Then explain to me how it's a good idea to bring a friend to the game, have him group with you, 2 man drop into group queue, with your Elo, which may be high, while said player uses a trial mech and gets ***-pumped.

Has this ever been properly explained?

When the best way to get a friend to try the game with you is to make an alt account to derp around with... is that a problem to anyone?

PGI could build meta trial mechs, players will still have to buy the chasis to master their skill trees, but it could cut into customization revenue if players decide to just drop in the trial mech.

[Soy]

Sanctus Maleficus, on 22 April 2015 - 07:02 AM, said:

Perhaps grouping with a player that is still in the cadet training period is possible in two ways:

- grouping with a cadet in their training period, you may select one of your regular mechs, you're ELO will be taken into account in the matchmaker. MM drops you into the group queue.

- grouping with a cadet in their training period, you select to use a trial mech. Cadets elo is the only one that matters. Veteran elo is discounted. You can then be dropped as a 2 man into the solo queue.

I'll finally acquiesce to one of these ******* recurring ideas.

Look, here's where I'll give in to that.........

IF it is EXACTLY, ver-*******-batim, word for word how you said it above...

I'll quote it again...

Sanctus Maleficus, on 22 April 2015 - 07:02 AM, said:

- grouping with a cadet in their training period, you select to use a trial mech. Cadets elo is the only one that matters. Veteran elo is discounted. You can then be dropped as a 2 man into the solo queue.

AND...

...if the OTHER team has the exact same combo.

Then, and only then, would I ever want to ever ever ever ever ever ever ever see some 2 man **** in datsoloq.

And it would STILL have problems, somehow, some trolls would try and **** it up.

Edited by Soy, 22 April 2015 - 07:14 AM.

[Sanctus Maleficus]

Soy, on 22 April 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

And it would STILL have problems, somehow, some trolls would try and **** it up.

Agreed.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Ace Selin, on 22 April 2015 - 04:54 AM, said:

OP admits to having autism so cant think out of the box....

I have this and can do this O.o Am I lucky?

Sanctus Maleficus, on 22 April 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

Agreed.

thats what trolls DO