256 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 23 April 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

Definition: Sniping is long- and extreme-range precise and accurate fire.

Opinion: Jump jets should make reliable sniping impossible. See my prior post for how JJs should work (in my lore-informed and balance-mindful opinion).

Conclusion: Jump Sniping is inherently contradictory and therefore crap.

Addendum: It helps my argument that Jump Sniping is fun for only a small portion of the player base, and is inimical to the lore and to healthy gameplay in general. Even if a supermajority of players do it, it's only fun for a small portion of those players, the rest do it out of perceived necessity.

Thank you for responding intelligently. Can we just call it jump shooting instead? 500-600 m is not really sniping. I feel like 800+ Gauss work is sniping. And you are right, sniping consists of a calm carefully placed shot. Jump shooting doesn't give you that luxury, as you have to ascertain where your target is, what it is doing, and aiming in a limited amount of time.

I do not really care about lore when it comes to this game. Lore is always used whenever it is convenient for an argument, but ignored when it doesn't support an argument. General BattleTech stuff yeah, but just because there wasn't jump shooting in the books doesn't mean it can't be in this game.

Also, remember most of the people here are arguing for it to be a bit more viable than it is now without being dominant. Simply buffing JJ thrust should be done for other reasons, and I stand by my theory that the change would not all of a sudden shift the meta away from where we are now. If you don't want to jump shoot, you don't have to. You can use the other perfectly viable strategies that we have now. No necessity to do it if you don't want to. It makes everyone happy! Jump brawling is better, Highlander JJs can be used to help get out of tight spots (since it doesn't have the speed).. life is just better and there is STILL no OP jump snipe meta.

Apnu, on 23 April 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

I don't need to. Its B.S. and even jump snipers know its B.S. They happen to like using B.S. that's the only difference.

Interesting. I don't see any rational and unbiased reasons here.

[Ultimax]

Kh0rn, on 23 April 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

Jump jet system needs too be reworked and follow the MWLL jump system where your mech actually jumped instead of hover around. I feel MWLL nailed the jump jets.

While that looks fun, that kind of jumping would destroy your legs pretty fast and that much air time + slow descent would just make you a clay pigeon.

[Apnu]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 April 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

I do not really care about lore when it comes to this game. Lore is always used whenever it is convenient for an argument, but ignored when it doesn't support an argument. General BattleTech stuff yeah, but just because there wasn't jump shooting in the books doesn't mean it can't be in this game.

You ask us for specifics but you generalize. I have never used lore as convenient cover to get my way, so your generalization is now moot. You also ask for logic but arbitrarily talk about what do and don't care about.

In lore there's no shooting while jumping. There's shooting after jumping. This prevents the player from jumping up in the air, hitting stuff and then dropping behind cover so to not see return fire. FASA even recognized that the idea breaks the game. Therefore jump sniping does not belong in the game. It happens because of a side effect in video games to allow it, players exploited it, and they will troll with it. Another reason not to have it.

Now if PGI would allow us to do damage when we fall on mechs, allowing us to try for a DFA (even on friendlies!), THAT, I would support.

We have the weak hover jets because of jump snipers. We have the shaky reticle because of jump snipers. We have jumping leg damage because of jump snipers. The vast majority of Mechwarrior players, that I've ever payed with over 20 years, including this game, hate jump snipers. Even Russ is against jump snipers.

Jump snipers are why we can't have nice things. PGI reacted its fastest I've ever seen against jump snipers.

So I'll go back to my original statement: HELL NO.

[Gas Guzzler]

Apnu, on 23 April 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

You ask us for specifics but you generalize. I have never used lore as convenient cover to get my way, so your generalization is now moot. You also ask for logic but arbitrarily talk about what do and don't care about.

In lore there's no shooting while jumping. There's shooting after jumping. This prevents the player from jumping up in the air, hitting stuff and then dropping behind cover so to not see return fire. FASA even recognized that the idea breaks the game. Therefore jump sniping does not belong in the game. It happens because of a side effect in video games to allow it, players exploited it, and they will troll with it. Another reason not to have it.

Now if PGI would allow us to do damage when we fall on mechs, allowing us to try for a DFA (even on friendlies!), THAT, I would support.

We have the weak hover jets because of jump snipers. We have the shaky reticle because of jump snipers. We have jumping leg damage because of jump snipers. The vast majority of Mechwarrior players, that I've ever payed with over 20 years, including this game, hate jump snipers. Even Russ is against jump snipers.

Jump snipers are why we can't have nice things. PGI reacted its fastest I've ever seen against jump snipers.

So I'll go back to my original statement: HELL NO.

The bolded statement seems to contradict your claim that you never use lore to argue your point.

It is unclear whether or not FASA consciously made that decision because it "breaks the game" or whether in the table top it simply wasn't practical to do so. Isn't there a movement phase and attack phase? That would also imply that you cannot shoot while you are moving. But in any case, I don't agree with picking things from the table top to say "you can't do it in TT so you shouldn't be able to do it in MWO". That opens up a whole list of things that is just not practical for a FPS.

Where does this hate come from? Because it sounds like you just got rekt by jump snipers and are butthurt over it. Whether or not that is the case I don't know. But that is how it is coming across because you are so vehemently against their existence.

Russ "hates" jump snipers because of all the QQ they have caused in his game. And we all know, they were OP. If you had the skill to do it effectively, it was an overpowered play style. Nobody wants it to be an OP play style, but I fail to see why it shouldn't be allowed just because a section of the playerbase doesn't like it. A section of the playerbase doesn't like having to deal with LRM boats (both on the same team or the other team), but we aren't trying to get them removed from the game.

And actually, QQ is why we can't have nice things. Jump jets could have been nerfed less harshly, and along with all the IS mechs getting quirks and Clan mechs, jump sniping would not have been dominant anymore. But because the tears were so furious, they nerfed everything even remotely jump related into the ground.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 23 April 2015 - 02:26 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Thing is I am not sure you can have jump sniping without it being OP for higher skilled players. It either works well enough to bring it or it does not. And it works really well against average players that cant shoot back effectively.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 23 April 2015 - 03:36 PM.

[Mystere]

Apnu, on 23 April 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

We have the weak hover jets because of jump snipers. We have the shaky reticle because of jump snipers. We have jumping leg damage because of jump snipers. The vast majority of Mechwarrior players, that I've ever payed with over 20 years, including this game, hate jump snipers. Even Russ is against jump snipers.

Or alternatively, we have all of those things because so many butthurt players decided to cry to momma instead of finding ways to counter them.

Apnu, on 23 April 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

Jump snipers are why we can't have nice things.

Again, alternatively, we cannot have nice things because there are so many crybabies quick to run to momma instead of finding tactics suitable to the situation at hand. So PGI has to dumb the game down to cater to the lowest common denominator.

Apnu, on 23 April 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

PGI reacted its fastest I've ever seen against jump snipers.

Just because a company suddenly decided to do what a number of its customers demanded does not mean that the customers were right. Other reasons -- financial, legal, public relations, etc. -- could be the real reason behind the action while at the same time pretending they were following the customers' "wishes".

Politicians do the same thing.

Edited by Mystere, 23 April 2015 - 04:14 PM.

[John80sk]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 23 April 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

Definition: Sniping is long- and extreme-range precise and accurate fire.

Opinion: Jump jets should make reliable sniping impossible. See my prior post for how JJs should work (in my lore-informed and balance-mindful opinion).

Conclusion: Jump Sniping is inherently contradictory and therefore crap.

Addendum: It helps my argument that Jump Sniping is fun for only a small portion of the player base, and is inimical to the lore and to healthy gameplay in general. Even if a supermajority of players do it, it's only fun for a small portion of those players, the rest do it out of perceived necessity.

I feel like jump sniping has been thrown into 6MG spider disinformation levels. As soon as ERPPC's became too hot for practical use, and ballistics were reduced to only 2x range jump sniping stopped being a long range tactic.

To clarify the way I generally think of range: 0-270 short range 270-540 medium range 540-800 long range 800+ extreme long range. The way range bands were set up in my head were generally created by the poptart meta, so other folks might have different definitions.

Jump sniping was always a med-long tactic, PPC's effective range is only 540m and firing beyond that was fairly inefficient. You still did it if you could get clean trades, but simply put the range was no greater than current laser vomit setups.

Edited by John80sk, 23 April 2015 - 04:15 PM.

[Summon3r]

cdlord, on 22 April 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

None of the above?

I'd like to see a stock meta. Use quirks to reinforce stock loadouts.

i would pay massive of amount of real life moneys for this to happen or at least the option to play in a stock only drop

Edited by Summon3r, 23 April 2015 - 04:27 PM.

[ShinVector]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 April 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

Poptarting with Grasshoppers? With what 3 PPCs?

I guess you could do that if you wanted too but...
LPL man... LPL !

[Bullseye69]

They nerfed the jump jets first, then they introduced the gauss charge, then desynced the AC and PPC, then they refuse to give the 2 mechs assault that have to pay out the butt Highlander and Victor 2 tons per jet the ability to slow you fall IE hover jet.

I used my Highlander jump jets for mobility in combat since even though it a assault it could move like a fat heavy and for that ability I have to pay the 10 in heavy metal and I am good with that but when the jump jet nerfed hit it made the highlander unusable since I can do it better and with lighter chassis now the Zeus and Battlemaster. Pleas give me the ability to actual jump up not hover.

[Ace Selin]

I still jump snipe just fine in my Madcat.
Maybe people don't use enough jump jets and want to use 1 JJ to fly from here to there.

Jump jets really are fine at present, certainly many more important things to look at in the game.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ace Selin, on 23 April 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

I still jump snipe just fine in my Madcat.
Maybe people don't use enough jump jets and want to use 1 JJ to fly from here to there.

Jump jets really are fine at present, certainly many more important things to look at in the game.

Clearly you don't drive Highlanders

[Apnu]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 April 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

The bolded statement seems to contradict your claim that you never use lore to argue your point.

It is unclear whether or not FASA consciously made that decision because it "breaks the game" or whether in the table top it simply wasn't practical to do so. Isn't there a movement phase and attack phase? That would also imply that you cannot shoot while you are moving. But in any case, I don't agree with picking things from the table top to say "you can't do it in TT so you shouldn't be able to do it in MWO". That opens up a whole list of things that is just not practical for a FPS.

Where does this hate come from? Because it sounds like you just got rekt by jump snipers and are butthurt over it. Whether or not that is the case I don't know. But that is how it is coming across because you are so vehemently against their existence.

Russ "hates" jump snipers because of all the QQ they have caused in his game. And we all know, they were OP. If you had the skill to do it effectively, it was an overpowered play style. Nobody wants it to be an OP play style, but I fail to see why it shouldn't be allowed just because a section of the playerbase doesn't like it. A section of the playerbase doesn't like having to deal with LRM boats (both on the same team or the other team), but we aren't trying to get them removed from the game.

And actually, QQ is why we can't have nice things. Jump jets could have been nerfed less harshly, and along with all the IS mechs getting quirks and Clan mechs, jump sniping would not have been dominant anymore. But because the tears were so furious, they nerfed everything even remotely jump related into the ground.

You know what Russ hates huh? You been in his brain? What's he want for dinner tonight?

As for the lore business, you should go back and read it again. I said I don't hide behind the lore when its convenient and ignore it when it suits me. Which is what you said.

I want to see true UACs, ones that jam and stay jammed for the whole match. I want to see clan ACs w/out the stupid bursting mechanic. I want to see true clan LRMs, none of this trickle nonsense. I want to see 10 v 12. I don't want to see mixed tech in the public queue until the time line is advanced to 3060. I want to see DFAs and knock downs.

You guys say I'm butthurt over Jump snipers? No. I adapted to them pretty fast. They haven't changed in 20 years. They don't do well to an AC20 in the back, jump snipers got no short game, they got one skill and nothing else.
Is you guys mewling about wanting jump meta back in the game.

I still say hell no to jump sniping because its not in the TT.

I say hell no to jump sniping because its a unbalanced game mechanic that was a side effect of a game written 20 years ago and no dev until PGI decided to do anything about it. Its you jump snipers who are butt hurt over your nerf.

I say hell no because jump sniping is a one trick pony and its boring.

[Mystere]

Apnu, on 23 April 2015 - 06:14 PM, said:

You guys say I'm butthurt over Jump snipers? No. I adapted to them pretty fast. They haven't changed in 20 years. They don't do well to an AC20 in the back, jump snipers got no short game, they got one skill and nothing else.
Is you guys mewling about wanting jump meta back in the game.

I still say hell no to jump sniping because its not in the TT.

I say hell no to jump sniping because its a unbalanced game mechanic that was a side effect of a game written 20 years ago and no dev until PGI decided to do anything about it. Its you jump snipers who are butt hurt over your nerf.

I say hell no because jump sniping is a one trick pony and its boring.

Did you just say jump sniping is both junk and unbalanced at the same time?

[Apnu]

Mystere, on 23 April 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

Did you just say jump sniping is both junk and unbalanced at the same time?

Yes I did. Theres more in life than either or.

[Tarl Cabot]

Apnu, on 23 April 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

You ask us for specifics but you generalize. I have never used lore as convenient cover to get my way, so your generalization is now moot. You also ask for logic but arbitrarily talk about what do and don't care about.

In lore there's no shooting while jumping. There's shooting after jumping. This prevents the player from jumping up in the air, hitting stuff and then dropping behind cover so to not see return fire. FASA even recognized that the idea breaks the game. Therefore jump sniping does not belong in the game. It happens because of a side effect in video games to allow it, players exploited it, and they will troll with it. Another reason not to have it.

Now if PGI would allow us to do damage when we fall on mechs, allowing us to try for a DFA (even on friendlies!), THAT, I would support.

We have the weak hover jets because of jump snipers. We have the shaky reticle because of jump snipers. We have jumping leg damage because of jump snipers. The vast majority of Mechwarrior players, that I've ever payed with over 20 years, including this game, hate jump snipers. Even Russ is against jump snipers.

Jump snipers are why we can't have nice things. PGI reacted its fastest I've ever seen against jump snipers.

So I'll go back to my original statement: HELL NO.

In FASA's BT TT, you are correct, the firing is done at the end of the movement phase. But MWO and all the other games are more akin to FASA's BT Solaris that is broken down into 2.5 sec intervals instead of the 10 sec intervals of the standard TT. With Solaris a mech had the ability to fire its weapons at the end of its movement phase, during a jump, provided it was still air-borne.

Solaris also had different cooldown timers for its weapons. Simply noting that the TT was a simplified game for individual combat, Solaris broke that down even more while Battleforce was for larger unit actions. Each was handled with a specific scope.

[Soy]

i just wanna say sprites like Apnu are why the game is such a pile of garbage, gj.

talking about how poptarting didn't exist in TT, srsly, i'm biting my tongue right now i'll just part with this shot - dumb as ****

[Telmasa]

So am I alone in thinking JJ-poptarting is more or less the fine the way it is, and that JJ effectivness on heavies & assaults just needn't be scaled down as heavily as they are now?

[Duke Nedo]

I tried my old Vic 9S yesterday for single drop because of these discussions and I was surprised it didn't do too bad. Ok, it was a solo drop that turned into a nice 12-9 brawl on a cold map, but with only 2 JJ I could take off if I timed it with terrain, definately enough to increase brawling agility a bit, and scored 970 damage and 3 kills using 2x LPL, 1x AC20, 3x SRM4. If I have time tonight I might try a gauss/ppc build with 4x JJ.

I think firing mid-air has a place in MWO, definately for Lights and Mediums anyways. For example the cSPL MLX is Fun to play! The only thing I don't want to see are Heavy and Assault pogo-stick snipers. Not because I believe they would be OP, but because it looks bloody silly... But I am all for Heavies and Assaults being able to pull it off once in a while, collecting some heat and some leg damage in the process.

[H I A S]

Apnu, on 23 April 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

In lore there's no shooting while jumping. There's shooting after jumping. This prevents the player from jumping up in the air, hitting stuff and then dropping behind cover so to not see return fire. FASA even recognized that the idea breaks the game. Therefore jump sniping does not belong in the game. It happens because of a side effect in video games to allow it, players exploited it, and they will troll with it. Another reason not to have it.

In TT you have Rounds and can not shoot back.
MWO is a FPS and you can shoot back. (ok, may be you not)

PS: Jumpsniping was the most aesthetic Playstyle in MWO

Edited by HiasRGB, 23 April 2015 - 10:48 PM.