256 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Mystere, on 23 April 2015 - 04:12 PM, said:

Or alternatively, we have all of those things because so many butthurt players decided to cry to momma instead of finding ways to counter them.




Again, alternatively, we cannot have nice things because there are so many crybabies quick to run to momma instead of finding tactics suitable to the situation at hand. So PGI has to dumb the game down to cater to the lowest common denominator.




Just because a company suddenly decided to do what a number of its customers demanded does not mean that the customers were right. Other reasons -- financial, legal, public relations, etc. -- could be the real reason behind the action while at the same time pretending they were following the customers' "wishes".

Politicians do the same thing.

I would ask you to demonstrate how pop-tart sniping was balanced with 3x range ACs, single jumpjets giving nearly max thrust, jumpjets not generating any heat, fall damage not mattering at all, etc but I don't think you're capable of doing that because that doesn't fit into your narrative of "everybody is a scrub except me."

[Ursh]

Don't ever want to see jump-sniping again. It got very tiring, very quickly.

[Apnu]

Soy, on 23 April 2015 - 09:07 PM, said:

i just wanna say sprites like Apnu are why the game is such a pile of garbage, gj.

talking about how poptarting didn't exist in TT, srsly, i'm biting my tongue right now i'll just part with this shot - dumb as ****

Keep crying in your beer. You're junk skill got nerfed. Boo-hoo.

[Apnu]

HiasRGB, on 23 April 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:

In TT you have Rounds and can not shoot back.
MWO is a FPS and you can shoot back. (ok, may be you not)

PS: Jumpsniping was the most aesthetic Playstyle in MWO

Yeah its pretty to look at, but it depends on indestructible environments. The Jump sniper, poptarts, shoots, maybe hits, then falls, fairly quickly, down behind indestructible cover. Its BS exploiting of the limits of the game. Hence its unbalanced and should not be in the game.

Now If I could demo the building the jump sniper is hiding behind and topple it on him for damge, then I'd be fine with jump sniping. But we aren't going to get that. The packet spam for destructible environments would bugger every player over 50 ping, which is more than half the player base.

None of this means that I like the crappy thrust of JJs on assaults. That's a bandaid fix. Those mechs should be able to move around at a good clip. I have a lance mate who's still pissed about the VTR nerf. He never ran it as a jump sniper, he was a jumping brawler and it was deadly in his hands. Not any more.

So I don't like nerfs that have unintended consequences, like the VTR brawler being nerfed because of VTR jump snipers. That's BS.

I'd like to see good thrust come back for assaults, but I still want to see nerfs to jump sniping. More screen shake please!

I think leg damage should go away unless we can DFA. Gods and Demons, I want DFA in this game.

[Mister Blastman]

One other thing to consider... All that constant acceleration and then instantaneous deceleration when you land, it'd take a toll on the pilot. Talk about a headache, loss of consciousness, concussions etc. It would be very traumatic for the pilot to experience one time, let alone twenty to fifty times over the course of a single drop.

This is why pilot health and status should be equally simulated in this game. You're a robot second, a pilot first.

[Mystere]

Pjwned, on 23 April 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:

I would ask you to demonstrate how pop-tart sniping was balanced with 3x range ACs, single jumpjets giving nearly max thrust, jumpjets not generating any heat, fall damage not mattering at all, etc but I don't think you're capable of doing that because that doesn't fit into your narrative of "everybody is a scrub except me."

The problem was never poptarting itself. You mentioned it yourself. The main problem was single-JJ setups that worked almost as good as multi-JJ setups for so little cost. But because of all the butthurt crying, Jump Jets became slow-moving Hover Jets to silence the butthurt whiners. In other words, JJs were made virtually ineffective as a response to the butthurt crying. Why? Because instead of asking that a scalpel be used to fix a problem, butthurt players demanded a bone saw be used instead.

Fast forward to 2015 and we now have 2x range for ACs, heat for using JJs, and fall damage now mattering. These are all good. But, why are people still so vehemently against improving jump jets so that jump "sniping" (it's not really sniping because it was usually done at 800m or less) again becomes viable? What is everyone's excuse this time?

And by the way, it's not about scrubs. it's about players constantly crying to momma PGI every time someone/something beats them.

Edited by Mystere, 24 April 2015 - 08:34 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Pjwned, on 23 April 2015 - 11:42 PM, said:

I would ask you to demonstrate how pop-tart sniping was balanced with 3x range ACs, single jumpjets giving nearly max thrust, jumpjets not generating any heat, fall damage not mattering at all, etc but I don't think you're capable of doing that because that doesn't fit into your narrative of "everybody is a scrub except me."

I don't know if I am the only one who feels this way, but some of those adjustments were necessary. The only one I don't like is that even with a few jump jets the thrust still sucks, and with max JJs on a Highlander the thrust is terrible. I understand adjusting the 1 JJ thrust and scaling thereafter, but I feel even the 3-4 JJ range is weak.

[Koniks]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 April 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

Can we just call it jump shooting instead?

The semantics don't really matter. We know what people mean when they use jump sniping, poptarting, or jump shooting. Correcting it is just people against the tactic being condescending towards the people who are for the tactic. Just like using scrub, peasant, or L2P is condescending towards the anti-jumpers.

Regardless of what we call it, the opposition are overly worried about how OP it would be if it was remotely viable. It was previously OP for a lot of reasons that left us with no counters, including the 3x range on ballistics, ballistic and PPC velocity sync, bad SRM hit reg, too-hot pulse lasers, ghost heat at 3xLL, no quirks, needing only 1 jump jet to get sufficient lift, 30 point alphas of pinpoint frontloaded damage being a sweetspot with few mechs able to deliver a bigger alpha at mid-range, and few hill-peeking options with equal or better range as a counter.

There are now plenty of counters available with relatively low skill floors. I don't think it would be the best tactic at most ranges of engagement the way it was. At a minimum we should be given a weekend to see what happens with it beeing possible to use the tactic with any chance of success, like we had with the LL ghost heat change, or at least time on the Test Server.

Average players are going to lose to better players regardless of what the meta is.

Edited by Mizeur, 24 April 2015 - 07:14 AM.

[Mystere]

Mister Blastman, on 24 April 2015 - 07:02 AM, said:

One other thing to consider... All that constant acceleration and then instantaneous deceleration when you land, it'd take a toll on the pilot. Talk about a headache, loss of consciousness, concussions etc. It would be very traumatic for the pilot to experience one time, let alone twenty to fifty times over the course of a single drop.

This is why pilot health and status should be equally simulated in this game. You're a robot second, a pilot first.

We can simulate pilots experiencing a temporary black out where duration is directly proportional to the G-force of impact. Players should be required to feather JJs to mitigate fall damage (both to the pilot and Mech).

Gas Guzzler, on 24 April 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

I don't know if I am the only one who feels this way, but some of those adjustments were necessary. The only one I don't like is that even with a few jump jets the thrust still sucks, and with max JJs on a Highlander the thrust is terrible. I understand adjusting the 1 JJ thrust and scaling thereafter, but I feel even the 3-4 JJ range is weak.

See, this person gets it. Poptarting was not the problem. JJs were the main problem.

Edited by Mystere, 24 April 2015 - 08:34 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Telmasa, on 23 April 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

So am I alone in thinking JJ-poptarting is more or less the fine the way it is, and that JJ effectivness on heavies & assaults just needn't be scaled down as heavily as they are now?

That is pretty much what I would like to see.

But I also hate the PPC quirks and having to adjust for all these different velocities, and would prefer if they just buffed them a little bit across the board and did away with the crazy velocity quirks.

[Mister Blastman]

Mystere, on 24 April 2015 - 07:15 AM, said:

We can simulate pilots experiencing a temporary black out where duration is directly proportional to the G-force of impact. Players should be required to feather JJs to mitigate fall damage (both to the pilot and Mech).

I think the pilots should have health.

Overheat too many times? Pilot melts.
Fall too many times? Pilot splats.

And in between you have negative effects blurred screens, delayed response times, etc.

I fly fast jet sims. Pilot effects are modeled in these and are a very real conscious problem when you make any maneuvering decisions. I see no reason why they shouldn't be modeled here, especially to reign in some of the more absurd gameplay issues.

[Mystere]

Mister Blastman, on 24 April 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

I think the pilots should have health.

Overheat too many times? Pilot melts.
Fall too many times? Pilot splats.

And in between you have negative effects blurred screens, delayed response times, etc.

Sounds good to me.

Mister Blastman, on 24 April 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

I fly fast jet sims. Pilot effects are modeled in these and are a very real conscious problem when you make any maneuvering decisions. I see no reason why they shouldn't be modeled here, especially to reign in some of the more absurd gameplay issues.

Are you playing any new ones, or old ones worthy of a well-specced machine and Thrustmaster gear?

Telmasa, on 23 April 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

So am I alone in thinking JJ-poptarting is more or less the fine the way it is, and that JJ effectivness on heavies & assaults just needn't be scaled down as heavily as they are now?

They're kinda fine for lights (Urbie!) and mediums. But my Heavy Metal needs some love when running a full complement of JJs.

[Mister Blastman]

Mystere, on 24 April 2015 - 07:50 AM, said:

Are you playing any new ones, or old ones worthy of a well-specced machine and Thrustmaster gear?

I've got a full kit of modded Thrustmaster gear. Stick/throttle/pedals/track IR.

I fly Falcon 4.0 BMS which is the best it gets. Virtual cockpit, campaigns, theaters, realism, the works. A new version is in development at the moment and it will knock people's socks off.

http://www.bmsforum....rum/content.php

It's free to download and install as long as you have the original 4.0 CD or... .exe file.

I like it above and beyond anything else due to the realism alone. I was flying with a virtual squadron for a few years and doing online persistent campaigns and multiplayer (think 24/7 server with ppl logging on/off as it retained the game world and you can fly for either side depending on who you register for). But I've taken a short break from that since Elite Dangerous came out.

Rise of Flight is also loads of fun, DCS A-10 is nice but doesn't have the dynamic campaign of Falcon. Really I could list tons of stuff, I fly it all, even Helo sims. But the one I always come back to is Falcon BMS. It is never the same flight, ever, as the last one. The campaign guarantees it is different every time.

And for stunt flying, well, nothing beats the immersion of Cliffs of Dover in the SU-29. There's something about that sim that just nails the look and feel of flight. It was worth the ten bucks alone just to fart around in that stunt plane with my daughter in my lap.

Beyond that, X-Plane is fun, especially with the ultra high resolution mesh packs and planes you can download.

[Summon3r]

no reason to bring back jump sniping meta but make jump jets a viable piece of equipment would be good. hover equipment is bad

[generalazure]

I want a MG meta, where people are just stupidly staring each other down at close range and yet fights take forever. Maybe MG and flamer, gotta offer an alternative that does not rely on ammo after all. And noone would ever see it coming

On a more serious note, I'd be fine with way more jump in jump jets as long as it's more about maneuving and less about midflight precision shooting

[Feetwet]

Just to point out...it was not the "whiners" fault that PGI decided to go this route to curb the jumpsniping meta. The "whiners" complained about THE meta. This game style was around for a long time and over that period many crazy AND valid fixes were discussed on this very forum. If I remember correctly one of the solutions centered around fixing JJ so that they got more effective as you added them. Basically 1 pretty useless, full load would be the same as they were. PGI decided not to go this route. PGI decided to fix it in a way that causes mechs to hover. Ultimately it is PGI's choice how to fix a problem, it is the communities job to point it out and make suggestions.

S

[Benjamin Davion]

cdlord, on 22 April 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

lol why?

#RIPReasoning

Maybe because the stock mechs are absolute ****?

[Pjwned]

Mystere, on 24 April 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

The problem was never poptarting itself. You mentioned it yourself. The main problem was single-JJ setups that worked almost as good as multi-JJ setups for so little cost. But because of all the butthurt crying, Jump Jets became slow-moving Hover Jets to silence the butthurt whiners. In other words, JJs were made virtually ineffective as a response to the butthurt crying. Why? Because instead of asking that a scalpel be used to fix a problem, butthurt players demanded a bone saw be used instead.

I don't recall (many) people saying jumpjets should be a piece of crap, it was more about toning down pop-tarts and part of that was making it so single jumpjet builds weren't so effective. Now though, after quirks have kind of settled in (which is relevant because jumpjet mechs get less quirks) people are starting to clamor about making jumpjets less of a piece of crap and that PGI overnerfed the thrust when reigning in the pop-tarts; I also think the thrust was nerfed too hard.

Quote

Fast forward to 2015 and we now have 2x range for ACs, heat for using JJs, and fall damage now mattering. These are all good. But, why are people still so vehemently against improving jump jets so that jump "sniping" (it's not really sniping because it was usually done at 800m or less) again becomes viable? What is everyone's excuse this time?

Reading your posts it seems easy to think it's not fine from your perspective because of how you seem to think it was completely fine the way it was before (and as I recall have said as much before in other posts) and blaming every single thing on players crying about it who can't deal with a challenge instead of even trying to consider for a moment that maybe things people complain about are actually unbalanced in at least some cases, but I pretty much agree with you here.

Quote

And by the way, it's not about scrubs. it's about players constantly crying to momma PGI every time someone/something beats them.

People tend to have good reasons when they complain about something that's so blatantly OP that it completely dominates the entire metagame by a long shot and snuffs out everything else, like how pop-tarting used to be. Of course, there's still the occasional "LRMs are OP" thread or some thread asking for some ridiculous, arbitrary nerf or buff to something that makes no sense, but those threads are quickly shut down by people explaining why it's dumb. There are also other threads like giving clan XL engines more of a penalty on side torso loss (which was prompted by PGI saying the current penalty is not enough) or making ECM less broken or whatever, but those threads don't tend to be filled with people crying about nerfs for no good reason.

Edited by Pjwned, 24 April 2015 - 02:53 PM.

[Mystere]

Pjwned, on 24 April 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

I don't recall (many) people saying jumpjets should be a piece of crap ...

Go check the archives. There are more than a few of them.

Edited by Mystere, 24 April 2015 - 03:56 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

ut I also hate the PPC quirks and having to adjust for all these different velocities, and would prefer if they just buffed them a little bit across the board and did away with the crazy velocity quirks.

Problem is PPCs are a huge problem if they work well. They were one of the main reasons jump sniping was so good. And before jump sniping you had the 3-5 ppc and AC builds with huge front loaded damge. The laser meta works much better as the main meta since its not front loaded. Really the less front loaded damage in the game the better over all meta it is for 95% of the player base. Thats one reason people dislike the dual gauss builds now.

Oh and sniping does not always suggest long range. "the action of attacking a person or persons with a rifle from a place of concealment ". It can be from long distance but does not have to be.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 24 April 2015 - 04:30 PM.