101 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

DavidHurricane, on 26 April 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

The biggest difference the Mech tree makes is speed tweak. The difference is negligible imo for everything else.

I dunno, heat containment and cool run are pretty damn important, especially when elited. Tweak however is certainly the runner up.

[Pjwned]

DavidHurricane, on 26 April 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

The biggest difference the Mech tree makes is speed tweak. The difference is negligible imo for everything else.

Then your opinion is uninformed because everything except Pinpoint makes a noticeable difference as well, especially when Basics get doubled.

[990Dreams]

Escef, on 26 April 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

Speed Tweak is the single most transformative skill, yes. But getting double basics by filling out the elite tier of skills for many mechs feels like a huge difference. A lot of marginal builds become fun and effective with double basics.

FupDup, on 26 April 2015 - 04:34 PM, said:

I dunno, heat containment and cool run are pretty damn important, especially when elited. Tweak however is certainly the runner up.

Agreed. I personally think they should boost the speed of the higher tier engines w/out tweak to make tweaking less important. But I don't think tweaking needs a nerf, because it makes certain Mechs viable when the normally aren't (like the Commando/Locust).

As for the cooling stuffs, maybe have those only increased by 1.5. But then, heat scaling is in such a position that doubling the basic efficiencies is almost necessary. So maybe just double the values of the basic efficencies as they are and don't make elite double them (that way certain aspects of the basics when doubled still exist and allow Mechs to be viable, but elite-ing is less OP in these regards).

As for the Master Moduleslot, I see nothing wrong with it. It is very good for Mechs that only have 1/2/2 slots, and if you're gonna complain about removing skills, this needs to stay if nothing else.

Pjwned, on 26 April 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

Then your opinion is uninformed because everything except Pinpoint makes a noticeable difference as well, especially when Basics get doubled.

DavidHurricane, on 26 April 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

imo

Do you know what "imo" means? Don't try and continue a debate with me before you answer that question.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 26 April 2015 - 05:22 PM.

[OznerpaG]

funny, every single game i'v played since i was a little kid started off easy to suck you in, then got progressively harder the more you played to give you a bigger challenge. then i started playing MWO - it starts off hard as f*** where you die hard and fast every game, and gets easier only after playing a couple thousand games

i think this game has got it all backwards

[Ace Selin]

Players dont need any modules to do well (only to do better) and same goes for efficiencies.
Learn the inticacies of the game and how your mech handles and you can do good.

[Lunatic_Asylum]

Nothing is punishing new players. Are you saying that every hobby punishes new members? No. When I was a new player here, I even thought that it is too rewarding in some cases (cadet bonus and 2xp should have been taken out).
All sport and hobbies are about climbing up the ranks by gradually increasing both skill and equipment.

[Ari Dian]

Phashe, on 26 April 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

IMHO, PGI's two true failings are: (1) the horrible new player experience, and (2) doing nothing about it for 2 years. ALMOST like they do not care if they get new players.... which scares me...

Not even two.

There is only one fault. They have (had) no master plan. No red line they can work along.
They just mess arond with the game and try to fix the broken parts, with the only result that it is more broken after it.

The adding stuff without testing or even thinking is beyond my understanding. Tukayyid is a good example. They have the numbers. They can see how many player are signed for each faction and how many are playing in CW.


It all started with the total broken ECM. And why? Because the LRM were to powerfull. And drawing a line until now. With the need to balance the Clan and IS mechs because they are playing on the same side in CW!
No master plan. There would have been no need to balance the Clan Mechs at all if the matchmaking would be clan vs IS, 10 vs 12 or even 5 vs 8. Or a serrious bidding system with a canon like reward system for clans. But all this was lost when they added the same XP for Clans as for IS.


Honestly. If you are doing a game like this, you should have a master plan. A general idea what you want to make and how it should look like. But in this game? Not even close. Its all worked around and duct taped together so it does not fall apart.

The game itself is not bad. But it was made bad with stupid decissions. The real problem is now the, relativ, low player base.
You cant make so many different play modes and matchmaking with groups and pug, with instant fight and CW, without a solid player base. And this is what they ruinded in the last years.

If this game would have a million player, it would be way easier. And the matchmaking would even work. But this ship has sailed.

Long story, short:
The game penalize new players because there not not enough player for a fair system. New player in trial Mechs HAVE to play against FotM, maxed out skill, full modul experienced players. Because there are not enough new player. Or even enough player on the same level.

[Ari Dian]

lunticasylum, on 26 April 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

Nothing is punishing new players. Are you saying that every hobby punishes new members? No. When I was a new player here, I even thought that it is too rewarding in some cases (cadet bonus and 2xp should have been taken out).
All sport and hobbies are about climbing up the ranks by gradually increasing both skill and equipment.

What kind of compare is this?

In sport i am not forced to play against the elite when i start. When i start with football now, i am not forced to play with 10 other randoms against Real Madrid. Over and over again.
Why not? Because this would be stupid!

Yes, you should climb um the ranks. Against EQUAL players. And this is what MWO is missing.

[Roadbuster]

XX Sulla XX, on 25 April 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

One things that hurts new players is they do not know what mechs to buy. Because of this they waste money on bad mechs. Add that to having limited skill in the game and it makes it hard for them. But if they have help and advice on both its much easier.

This is true.
But the problem is that there ARE bad mechs.
If a new player just wants to play a specific mech because he likes the look or because it is his favourite mech from the books or TT game, but that mech isn't competitive, the motivation of that player will not last for long.

Skilling up mechs and equipping them with upgrades like DHS are other factors.
Only few mechs and loadouts work with SHS, and none of them work well till elited.
No matter how good you are. If your opponent can fire twice as often without overheating, is faster, and more maneuverable, you are at a disadvantage.

Oh, and that there still is no ingame tutorial available which explains more than basic movement.
Like for example weapon ranges, weapon/ammo explosions, BAP, ECM, NARC, TAG, targetting, view modes,...

[Joseph Mallan]

Xoco, on 25 April 2015 - 07:32 AM, said:

TLDR:
Mechs grow stronger with time, which improves your performance. But why do we have to start out in the worst possible state, especially when you are already lacking in actual experience piloting the mech?
-----------
So I've been playing for a good bit, and I think I'm learning the ropes. I'm now at least doing 200 dmg (still pretty low), but it's improving pretty quick.

The thing is, I'm still just as bad at the game as a few months back mostly. I just happened to now be carrying bigger guns, going faster, as well as being tougher.



See, when I start out the game, I decided to go with the Locust (mainly because of its appearance)--I'm still playing them, and they are still my favorite mechs so far. The thing is, when I started, I was rocking the standard engine, and 2xsmall lasers. I was really struggling to do any damage (my alpha is a whopping 6 dmg!) at point blank range, in an armorless coffin. Needless to say, I usually don't make it past 3 minutes mark each game.

Then I made enough to start kitting out my Locust--new engine here, a few medium lasers there--now I'm going 50% faster than before, and doing 8 times the damage per salvo. Even when I was pretty much doing the same thing I did before, my score improved tremendously (which allows me to buy a few more stuff).

I'm also getting more EXP, which lets me get some mastery going, which makes my mech even stronger.

My question then, is why does the game penalize me when I'm starting out? When you buy a new mech, you're playing in a gimp bot. Why? For the sake of having in-game progress? Shouldn't new players be given a handicap, rather than having the worst possible mech in existence? Why not at least start everyone on equal footing, instead of making sure late-comers will always be at disadvantage?

Cause as a CO you don't put the new guy in the Baddest thing on the field. The most likely to die isn't the one you trust the good stuff to. That goes to teh guys who earned their stripes already. In most games I play, I have to earn the swag I have. I don't begin with Gold ammo and Armor of Invulnerability.

[Kristov Kerensky]

My first question for Xoco is a simple one, what other online MMO style games have you played?

I ask that because they all tend to start off like MWO does, you start off with nothing and have to go and play to earn anything you want. You do quests, you kill stuff, whatever the game's theme is, you end up doing things that let you earn coin and/or xp so you can get better stuff and become more powerful.

If you aren't any good at the game's mechanics, then it will probably be a frustrating and long experience trying to get anything of any value ingame. Most MMO style games this typically means you need to be able to point and click, there's no real skills involved outside of knowing what to click when. And most MMOs of that type will have loads of online tutorials, charts, graphs, and even 3rd party tools that allow you to 'master' the game without actually learning anything.

MWO, you actually are required to have some skills in order to do well due to the FPS nature of the game's mechanics. Some people discover that they really don't have the skills necessary and blame the game for that lack. Others realize they don't have the skills and work to acquire them, they understand that the GAME isn't the problem, they are.

The new player experience in MWO is, sadly, lacking a lot, but PGI is working on that. Starting off with nothing and having to earn what you want, well, that's EVERY MMO style game out there, from WoW to PlanetSide2. Hell, even Battlefield and Call of Duty require one to 'grind' to earn stuff to use ingame, it's not given to you right off the bat for simply logging into the game.

Mastery of a Mech chassis IS supposed to be end game material in MWO, and since I can buy 3 variants of a single chassis I haven't ever used before and get Mastery in all 3 of variants in less than 20 hours ingame and without upgrading any of them, simply replacing weapons to fit MY style of playing I don't consider it much of a grind. Not when I compare what it takes to complete end game material in other MMO style games, not even close to a grind.

Edited by Kristov Kerensky, 27 April 2015 - 09:36 AM.

[S13gtastic]

michaelius, on 25 April 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

Most games have protection systems in place to give positive first impression of game to new players by mostly making them to play against other new people.
MWO doesn't and we have newbies thrown straight into pool full of sharks.

Nailed it. When I first started playing it was a battle every step of the way untell I had knowledge memorized on almost every mechs weakpoints and popular builds. If you can survive it all and the feeding frenzy and make friends willing to teach you it really helps.

[Almond Brown]

Mister Blastman, on 25 April 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:

Because most game designers today had rocks thrown at them when they were children. Or so it seems.

Fup has the right answer.

Back when I was a kid, we didn't need artificial progression. We made it ourselves!

Oh for crying out loud. When you and Fup were "kids", there was likely no such thing as only Online gaming. SP sure.

The issue today is the same as ALL strictly Online games, if you do not get hooked into a Game, with an Online component, on the Ground floor (Beta or very close to) everyday you fall behind, is a day the other players who did get in early, gain that much more experience.

The question is, why should you start at the "Front of the Line" when everyone else paid their dues in "Time Played" to get to their "spot" in that line. (time played moves the line)

So today, with F2P, you actually have a choice. One that was not available when many of us were kids. Now you got into the line where you belong or Pay RL funds to move up the line.

How far up that line you wish to pay for is strictly up to you?

Edited by Almond Brown, 27 April 2015 - 10:59 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Almond Brown, on 27 April 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

Oh for crying out loud. When you and Fup were "kids", there was likely no such thing as only Online gaming. SP sure.

We had BBSs back when I was a kid and such wonderful diversions like The Pit or Tradewars. We also had MUDs (though, I didn't partake in them).

We also had fantastic multiplayer games (on the same system) like Combat™ or my personal favorite on the Atari 2600, Warlords!



Taken from my old piece of junk television that still works!

[Khobai]

Quote

Most games have protection systems in place to give positive first impression of game to new players by mostly making them to play against other new people.

This.

Most other games dont have pugstomping either.

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 27 April 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

Oh for crying out loud. When you and Fup were "kids", there was likely no such thing as only Online gaming. SP sure.

The issue today is the same as ALL strictly Online games, if you do not get hooked into a Game, with an Online component, on the Ground floor (Beta or very close to) everyday you fall behind, is a day the other players who did get in early, gain that much more experience.

The question is, why should you start at the "Front of the Line" when everyone else paid their dues in "Time Played" to get to their "spot" in that line. (time played moves the line)

So today, with F2P, you actually have a choice. One that was not available when many of us were kids. Now you got into the line where you belong or Pay RL funds to move up the line.

How far up that line you wish to pay for is strictly up to you?

This was my Online gaming as a kid!

in 1978!

[Phashe]

Makes me sad that we cannot help new players. Means eventually the game will die prematurely. Going Steam or whatnot would do nothing if the new player experience is the painful mess it is now. They will try it, be discouraged, and uninstall it.

[RogueLdr]

First off, they do need a better and more in depth player tutorial. (though they say they are working on it)

That being said, while eliting a mech does help it's not the end all be all. Skill and knowledge of game machanics are by far much more vital. As someone said earlier you take a seasoned player and put them in a brand new mech, they will still pull 400+ dmg in all likelihood.



The problem is that MWO mechanics are different then many if not most other games. Most players come from FPS or MMO's

FPS games reward run and gun style tactics. If you play slow and cautious you typically either get a knife in the back or a sniper round in the melon. FPS players are used to killing an enemy in less then 2 seconds. The idea that you can fire everything you have at an enemy and barely hurt them is foreign to them. This explains the general pug mentality of rushing in.

People aren't used to moving cautiously as a team and using coordinated efforts to drop hostiles.

And in most MMO's you stand in one spot and cycle your abilities until the enemy is dead. (PVE)

It takes a while for new players to adjust to the MWO play style. Once they understand that they can't charge over the hill and kill 3 people instantly before ducking into cover, they tend to do much better.

This is complicated by the fact that different weight classes as well as different loadouts have differing play styles and need to be learned in turn.


As far as the call for deeper mech trees and such. The progression is there to give long term players a sense of "getting somewhere", of improving. It rewards people who keep playing and gives new players something to strive for.

The draw back is, the "deeper" you make the progression, the wider the gap between new and elited becomes.

With the exception of hero mechs (which are kinda meh anyways) there is nothing of consequence that can be bought with money that can't be achieved by playing.

What PGI needs to ensure is that new players stick around and don't get frustrated into quitting before they learn to play the game correctly.

In addition to a good tutorial they should give new players one free mech of their choice, not force them to run crappy trial versions.

Also (if possible given player numbers) place new players in a separate que with only other new players. This gives them a chance to get acclimated without getting facerolled as much.

[Kristov Kerensky]

RogueLdr, on 27 April 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

First off, they do need a better and more in depth player tutorial. (though they say they are working on it)

That being said, while eliting a mech does help it's not the end all be all. Skill and knowledge of game machanics are by far much more vital. As someone said earlier you take a seasoned player and put them in a brand new mech, they will still pull 400+ dmg in all likelihood.



The problem is that MWO mechanics are different then many if not most other games. Most players come from FPS or MMO's

FPS games reward run and gun style tactics. If you play slow and cautious you typically either get a knife in the back or a sniper round in the melon. FPS players are used to killing an enemy in less then 2 seconds. The idea that you can fire everything you have at an enemy and barely hurt them is foreign to them. This explains the general pug mentality of rushing in.

People aren't used to moving cautiously as a team and using coordinated efforts to drop hostiles.

And in most MMO's you stand in one spot and cycle your abilities until the enemy is dead. (PVE)

It takes a while for new players to adjust to the MWO play style. Once they understand that they can't charge over the hill and kill 3 people instantly before ducking into cover, they tend to do much better.

This is complicated by the fact that different weight classes as well as different loadouts have differing play styles and need to be learned in turn.


As far as the call for deeper mech trees and such. The progression is there to give long term players a sense of "getting somewhere", of improving. It rewards people who keep playing and gives new players something to strive for.

The draw back is, the "deeper" you make the progression, the wider the gap between new and elited becomes.

With the exception of hero mechs (which are kinda meh anyways) there is nothing of consequence that can be bought with money that can't be achieved by playing.

What PGI needs to ensure is that new players stick around and don't get frustrated into quitting before they learn to play the game correctly.

In addition to a good tutorial they should give new players one free mech of their choice, not force them to run crappy trial versions.

Also (if possible given player numbers) place new players in a separate que with only other new players. This gives them a chance to get acclimated without getting facerolled as much.

^^ Very much this.

Newbie que for people with less than 50 drops maybe? Give Cadets not only the cbill bonus but also give them a Mech for free when they complete their Cadet drops, have them select a Faction(Clan, IS or Lone Wolf) and give them a choice of 1 Mech of any Class for their Faction, IS if they go Lone Wolf as there is no such thing as a Lone Wolf in the Clans(push a little RP at em, fits the lore). If they are IS, the Mech selections should all include DHS, they can upgrade to ES/FF on their own, we're trying to help them out, not do the entire science project for them after all

This way a new player can do their 25 drops, get some cbills and a brand new NOT obsolete Mech of their choice but they will still be kept in the Newbie que for at least another 25 drops, which should let them build up enough cbills and xp to get that Mech leveled up a bit and afford some toys for it.

[Pjwned]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 April 2015 - 03:59 AM, said:

Cause as a CO you don't put the new guy in the Baddest thing on the field. The most likely to die isn't the one you trust the good stuff to. That goes to teh guys who earned their stripes already. In most games I play, I have to earn the swag I have. I don't begin with Gold ammo and Armor of Invulnerability.

The thing is that things like gold ammo and armor of invulnerability (which obviously don't literally exist here) are stupid in a purely PvP game like this, and crap like that never existed before certain F2P games came along because every other game saw why giving people a competitive advantage simply for paying money or playing longer was dumb.

The only reason to justify such metagame crap is to line the publisher's wallet with money and absolutely nothing to do with it being good for the game, so if you say "well yeah obviously new players should get slaughtered by those who paid money or played longer, duh" then I'm going to say "enjoy playing your dead piece of crap game while I go play something else."

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 April 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

My first question for Xoco is a simple one, what other online MMO style games have you played?

I ask that because they all tend to start off like MWO does, you start off with nothing and have to go and play to earn anything you want. You do quests, you kill stuff, whatever the game's theme is, you end up doing things that let you earn coin and/or xp so you can get better stuff and become more powerful.

If you aren't any good at the game's mechanics, then it will probably be a frustrating and long experience trying to get anything of any value ingame. Most MMO style games this typically means you need to be able to point and click, there's no real skills involved outside of knowing what to click when. And most MMOs of that type will have loads of online tutorials, charts, graphs, and even 3rd party tools that allow you to 'master' the game without actually learning anything.

MWO, you actually are required to have some skills in order to do well due to the FPS nature of the game's mechanics. Some people discover that they really don't have the skills necessary and blame the game for that lack. Others realize they don't have the skills and work to acquire them, they understand that the GAME isn't the problem, they are.

The new player experience in MWO is, sadly, lacking a lot, but PGI is working on that. Starting off with nothing and having to earn what you want, well, that's EVERY MMO style game out there, from WoW to PlanetSide2. Hell, even Battlefield and Call of Duty require one to 'grind' to earn stuff to use ingame, it's not given to you right off the bat for simply logging into the game.

Mastery of a Mech chassis IS supposed to be end game material in MWO, and since I can buy 3 variants of a single chassis I haven't ever used before and get Mastery in all 3 of variants in less than 20 hours ingame and without upgrading any of them, simply replacing weapons to fit MY style of playing I don't consider it much of a grind. Not when I compare what it takes to complete end game material in other MMO style games, not even close to a grind.

The significant difference with MWO and other MMOs is that MWO is extremely lacking in content, and in particular there's no PvE content whatsoever, so shoving in a crappy artificial grind becomes a lot harder to justify. At least in other MMOs when you're doing quests and exploring and gaining levels (which could be considered "grinding") you're experiencing a variety of content, but here all you experience is getting blown to bits by other players in their mechs that aren't death traps because they grinded more or paid more than you in a purely PvP game.

RogueLdr, on 27 April 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

First off, they do need a better and more in depth player tutorial. (though they say they are working on it)

That being said, while eliting a mech does help it's not the end all be all. Skill and knowledge of game machanics are by far much more vital. As someone said earlier you take a seasoned player and put them in a brand new mech, they will still pull 400+ dmg in all likelihood.

The problem is that there are plenty of builds that rely on those doubled basics and elites (and possibly even the master module slot) to be decent, in particular brawling builds, because there are so many important bonuses tied to the mech tree that mechs are ultimately balanced around, and until they grind that crap up the mechs are significantly less effective.

I can stand that sort of grinding crap to an extent, despite my immense displeasure for it that regularly reminds me why I don't spend more money than the very small amount I spent in the past, but MWO takes it too far and it ruins the game.

Edited by Pjwned, 27 April 2015 - 08:56 PM.