49 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

So. I don't know if this is everyone's experience, but since Elo's have been introduced, I seem to be on a never ending, swinging cycle. 20(ish) Easy Wins, followed by 20(ish) crushing, curb stomping losses, being stuck on teams that I don't think even qualify for the Underhive.

Sure there are a handful of decent matches sprinkled in, but for the vast majority of the time, that seems to be the pattern. And it's pretty noticeable. I'll be going along OK; then suddenly, I find myself in one derp match, then another, and I know that for the rest of the day, things are going to go poorly. Switching Mech Classes, sometimes helps, as I thinK Elo is by Class, but even then, it's usually just forestalling the inevitable, ESPECIALLY if I play in the USA Evening time slots.

I should not that I am referring to the PUG queue here. And the stomps are not as bad, on average as before Elo, but dang it gets old, win or lose. It'd be one thing if it was like 5 wins, 5 stomps, rinse, wash and repeat. But going through so many losses in a row, usually makes me turn the game off. Part of it gets down to how fast losses snowball in a 12v12 focus fire environment. But probably 9 times out of 10 I can tell if we are going to lose before the first real shot is fired by the lack of coordination or other derp antics. And it really does seem to sing primarily between "good team" and "idiot team" with very little in between.

Why is it so hard to see more close, tight matches?

What's been your experience on the Mighty Elo Pendulum?

[Xetelian]

12vs12 is hard to roll. Almost every game I play is a stomp either way wining or losing. I even made a post about this and put 8 screenshots in it of stomps and they were literally my last 8 games not hand picked stomps.

It always comes down to first kill or 2 which sways the match greatly in favor of the team with 12v10 and while I've seen countless times where it doesn't matter, the majority of my experience is getting those first couple kills is a great weight and the teams fall apart.

Edited by Xetelian, 25 April 2015 - 01:42 PM.

[STEF_]

My experience with that pendulum was this: getting tired to drop in Puglandia.

[Sarlic]

I have been experiencing stomps alot as well. But also carry harder matches.

I am not sure if splitting th que from veterans will make a difference.

But this is what i have come up so far:




More or less two different ques. One for the total new player and the other for the veterans. Since i dont want to split it up in three different ques (our playerbase is not high enough and we have C.W. as well) each mech have their own que setting. Instead of being dumped with other veterans you play your mech with que settings. The more you play and gain experience, the higher que setting gets unlocked for that specific mech.

Still does not root out of the underlying problem: ELO, but its much more workable by splitting atleast the new players with the veterans, higher suited ELO class.

Edited by Sarlic, 25 April 2015 - 01:52 PM.

[Zoid]

It's a simple function of no respawn. The first team to get a kill is at a significant advantage, which makes it easier to get another and it snowballs from there.

Just picture a normal game and 5 mechs from one team run into four from the other, equal skill. The numerical advantage quickly brings down one of the four and now it's 5 v 3. Now if the others pull above their weight, the first team will still end up with 2 mechs left that will now flank the remaining enemy team when the 7 from their team engage the 8 from the other team.

This is why the most important thing you can do as a PUG is not die stupidly. Make sure you're always in a position that you can either take cover easily OR if you're getting hammered you have several friends around to return fire.

[Tarogato]

Bishop, maybe you could track your progress?



You can get pretty graphs like that. I also have one that's divided by weight class and notes solo and group queue.

The information I track is:

• which weight class
  
• ranking on team - top match score? 2nd highest? 3rd? Lowest? etc.
  
• win vs loss
  
• match score (optional)
  
• which queue (optional)

With just those three or so criteria tracked, you can extrapolate a lot of data in a spreadsheet and make some telling graphs that put things into perspective. Let me know if you're interested. I'm looking for another person to track data so I can put my own stuff into perspective anyways - I'm hoping to see that the data reveals that Elo isn't working very well. So far, mild success.

Edited by Tarogato, 25 April 2015 - 02:05 PM.

[Wintersdark]

I dunno. Works well for me, but I learned early how to mitigate things. I get lots of pretty close games.

I always wonder why everthing works better for me than everyone else. Elo, hitreg, etc.

I think its just because I'm awesome.

[Dark Jackal]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 April 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

What's been your experience on the Mighty Elo Pendulum?

Doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. Too little players when I play so I get slotted into curb stomp matches any way so I don't really consider having close matches matter all that much. I would say it's a grind all around.

[AEgg]

It's hard to see close matches because team sizes are too big.

Somewhere between 8v8 and 12v12 goes from "Found them, should I poke and hide again or reposition" to "I'm dead already".

I don't think it's even really the maps fault, people will bunch up anyway. There's just too much firepower in a 12 man team. And once a few die or split up, you drop below the "instant death" threshold of firepower, and are crushed by the other team.

Note: I REALLY don't want to see armor increased or weapon damage decreased. It's too high for 1v1 already. I want to see smaller teams. PGI, make 4v4v4v4v4v4 (or 8v8v8) happen. I'll wait years for it if I have to.

Edited by AEgg, 25 April 2015 - 02:40 PM.

[Telmasa]

It's a problem of 12 v 12 in a game that was entirely designed around 8 v 8, save for Alpine Peaks (which frankly is the ONLY map truely suitable for CW matches...).

I really don't see why pug matches can't be 8 v 8 again while CW can be 12 v 12.

[Mar-X-maN]

Lern to lose gracefully and with venegance. Winning is nice, but playing is more important. Consider it a challenge if you must.

[Cosmocat]

So the idea of the matchmaker being responsible for all of the stomps we experience is something that is put forward so often that it's basically become an accepted fact in the Mechwarrior Online community, but (surprisingly to me) it isn't suggested very often that lopsided results might just be the normal outcome of 12 vs 12 matches, even when the teams are evenly matched.

I agree with the previous posters who emphasized the importance of an early advantage in determining the outcome of the game. Even when your teams are of equal skill level, the motion of 24 players bumping around the game map is extremely chaotic. So many aspects of this process are affected by chance that an early advantage can be secured by pure luck, and snowball into a crushing victory.

I'd go so far as to suggest that in an uneven contest where Team A is only 40% likely to beat Team B, a significant portion of those 40% are going to be landslides where Team A demolishes Team B, leaving everyone on B with the impression that the matchmaker screwed them over (or their team let them down, or whatever).

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

my record is 29 losses in a row,just carry harder ™ and move on to the next dissapointment

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeah, that is the rigged portion of the MM. If the MM was truly balanced or w/e and wasnt rigged, there would be no pattern really. It would give you good games that dont mostly end in 2-12 stomps 8/10 games.

And yeah, the pattern I notice is nothing but 1-4/12 or 12/1-4. Of my some 150 pug games, maybe 3 have been 8/12 or better and maybe 8 have been 5-7/12....but mostly its 1-4/12 stomps either way.

If that is "balanced" avg elo, I think pgi dun failed.

[Lily from animove]

randomness, and not so randomness randomness

pay attention if after such a match the majority of the players is the same at the next matchup.
Because especially in CW the way how drops are filled can provide you often with the same people sicne they wikll very likely exit the game and enter the together again..

Sarlic, on 25 April 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

I have been experiencing stomps alot as well. But also carry harder matches.

I am not sure if splitting th que from veterans will make a difference.

But this is what i have come up so far:




More or less two different ques. One for the total new player and the other for the veterans. Since i dont want to split it up in three different ques (our playerbase is not high enough and we have C.W. as well) each mech have their own que setting. Instead of being dumped with other veterans you play your mech with que settings. The more you play and gain experience, the higher que setting gets unlocked for that specific mech.

Still does not root out of the underlying problem: ELO, but its much more workable by splitting atleast the new players with the veterans, higher suited ELO class.

That idea is dangerous. because does that mean i have to "unlock" hardmode? meaning I can stay midmode and wreck casuals? hardmode should probably apply at a k/d of hmm, lets say 1.8 but then even this can eb faked losing some matches on intention.

basic ideas, there are many. But hardly any idea is safe from being abused and exploited by people seeking easy games for trolling, stomping or epeen stroking.

Edited by Lily from animove, 25 April 2015 - 05:20 PM.

[RAM]

Combat Loss Grouping


RAM
ELH

[XX Sulla XX]

Thing is in the end its going to come down to how well you can carry a game. Your Elo will find the spot where you cant do it any longer and then hang around that spot with patterns of wins and losses. On the way to that spot you will have more wins just by the nature of your Elo rising. But you will either hit a wall or end up as one of the top 1% or so of players that have very very good win loss ratios because they are the best in the game and play in groups with other top players.

And remember Elo does not care what mech you bring or what loadout your bring. And as you move up every one is bringing the best mechs and loadouts. So the more you have to carry against good or top players the harder it is and the more important it is to bring a mech that will carry better.

So you can either just be OK at where your at and ride out the ups and down. Maybe just working on personal goals like having really good games even in losses. Or you can work at getting to the to 1% or so. Doesnt seem to be any other options

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 25 April 2015 - 06:57 PM.

[Kjudoon]

The side with the most clan mechs and/or ecm wins the vast majority of the time. If this is not the case on rare occasions, it is due to hitreg issues, an unmentionable reason we all know is here, specific broken IS mechs or the irresistible force of compound derp.

Don't forget. Elo is trying to keep you at a 50% victory percentage.

[FatYak]

IF only elo was on the chassis and not the weight class, at least you would not get punished for being a rockstar in one chassis and average in another

[FupDup]