This one tank in this one match, took out 6 out of 8 enemy Enforcers, and 1 Atlas. Its Commando ally was all but worthless.
One thing to remember, not every mech is small. By technicality Jenners are supposed to be around 10 meters tall (taller than the Shadowhawk) with long, skinny legs and a relatively wide but small body. The Commando in MWO is 9.7 meters tall for comparison.
A Centurion is supposed to be pretty tall, as is a Trebuchet, while the Hunchback and Commando are meant to be almost the same height (and both are shorter than 9 meters). So six of one, half a dozen the other. Some mechs are big, some mechs are squat and fat. (Ever noticed how the Hunchback has a drum on the LT -- the same side the stock ammo is on? Ever notice how artwork of the 4SP Hunchback puts that drum on the CT...where the stock ammo is at? It wasn't BIG enough to carry the ammo inside the torso! Its short size is a lot of what helped it in fighting within cities, and at that height 64.8 kph actually required 'running' versus the height it has in MWO which is 13.6 meters tall)
One thing to remember is the "2" series of Shadowhawks are small scout/recon mechs of 55 tons, with heavy weapons and engines and that's about it. They barely have more armor than Locusts. Their height makes sense. The enhanced ones of the 5 series all sport endo steel or ferro armor, and thus would be bigger. Other mechs simply were bigger, with goofy but plausible explanations like different materials used and construction techniques from other planets as well as "corporate secrets."
Of interesting note... This is the MWO Mist Lynx
Notice a problem?
It's about 9.5 meters tall.
Upper left, second mech...
10.8 meters tall here.
o.O;
Far as vehicles against mechs... Emphasis here.
I get the distinct feeling you are waiting for MWO to somehow morph into MWO 2. Hate to break it to you so harshly. It ain't gonna happen. Spewing BT Board game stats and stuff is not really productive or helpful when the OP is about ES and FF.
Buy the MW License from PGI and give us ALL a call. We would love to help you make it right... Hope you can deal with "our" wafflieness well too btw.
felio makes call for endo on all clan 'mechs, hordes of fellow bad players agree.
why do people keep making new threads on this? it's not like you're ever making any points besides "madcats and ryokens are too good, PGI PLZ buff the other mechs so they can be as good!"
Ragtag soldier, on 29 April 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:
felio makes call for endo on all clan 'mechs, hordes of fellow bad players agree.
why do people keep making new threads on this? it's not like you're ever making any points besides "madcats and ryokens are too good, PGI PLZ buff the other mechs so they can be as good!"
Why do you want to gimp the bad robots?
That's a better question. Why do Bad players want fewer options available?
they're not bad at all, clan-baby. they're perfectly fine 'mechs, you guys are just so bad you need OP mechs to carry you in spite of your crap playstyle.
Ragtag soldier, on 29 April 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:
they're not bad at all, clan-baby. they're perfectly fine 'mechs, you guys are just so bad you need OP mechs to carry you in spite of your crap playstyle.
Whatever you say, Mr Terribad.
Joseph Mallan, on 29 April 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:
Funny, How does more options help a bad player?
It lets them take more than 4 robots; also doesn't completely bankrupt them if they buy the 15 Mil Mr Gargles instead of the 15 Mil timberGod.
If Mr Gargles didn't have absolutely terrible construction, he could actually beat the TimberGod for firepower, while having worse hitboxes, hardpoint locations, and also being slower.
It lets them take more than 4 robots; also doesn't completely bankrupt them if they buy the 15 Mil Mr Gargles instead of the 15 Mil timberGod.
If Mr Gargles didn't have absolutely terrible construction, he could actually beat the TimberGod for firepower, while having worse hitboxes, hardpoint locations, and also being slower.
I don't see how that helps a bad player. I know what Mech I use I am adequate at best The Mech never changes that,
Edited by Joseph Mallan, 29 April 2015 - 11:04 AM.
If Mr Gargles didn't have absolutely terrible construction, he could actually beat the TimberGod for firepower, while having worse hitboxes, hardpoint locations, and also being slower.
comparing your other choices to the objectively most potent mech in the game and then saying you want to buff your other 'mechs is like going into a burgerking to tell them they gave you extra fries with your meal, and you need them to give an extra burger to balance it out. you sad little crybaby.
Ragtag soldier, on 29 April 2015 - 10:44 AM, said:
comparing your other choices to the objectively most potent mech in the game and then saying you want to buff your other 'mechs is like going into a burgerking to tell them they gave you extra fries with your meal, and you need them to give an extra burger to balance it out. you sad little crybaby.
Why so salty?
Afraid of facing more than 3 good robots? Who would still be worse than the God Tier?
Plenty of weaponry, but... a 65-ton mech with the armor of a 45-tonner? Any incidental damage to an arm or leg, and it'll get targeted and blown off if anyone is paying attention.
These builds work for me, the legs armor together are as much as the CT so go ahead and leg me it'll take just as long.
I don't put weapons in the arms thus making them entirely useless as they don't sit in a good place for blocking with.
Afraid of facing more than 3 good robots? Who would still be worse than the God Tier?
But the Gargoyle was never as good as the Timber Wolf Just like the Executioner was never as good as the Dire Wolf. Yet some folks wanna change history.
But the Gargoyle was never as good as the Timber Wolf Just like the Executioner was never as good as the Dire Wolf. Yet some folks wanna change history.
Was the Banshee any good in TT? A single PPC, single AC5, and a Small Laser.
Yet, in MWO, where every robot can pick whichever engine it wants (and hefty hardpoint inflation) it has become one of the best robots in the game.
Was the Banshee any good in TT? A single PPC, single AC5, and a Small Laser.
Yet, in MWO, where every robot can pick whichever engine it wants (and hefty hardpoint inflation) it has become one of the best robots in the game.
History means very little in MWO, sad as it is.
Depends on teh tech the GM allowed. in a 3025 tech game a Banshee just kept coming, in a 3050 Stock match it was pretty much crap. At my Table, it was a scary ride that was respected.
I get the distinct feeling you are waiting for MWO to somehow morph into MWO 2. Hate to break it to you so harshly. It ain't gonna happen. Spewing BT Board game stats and stuff is not really productive or helpful when the OP is about ES and FF.
Buy the MW License from PGI and give us ALL a call. We would love to help you make it right... Hope you can deal with "our" wafflieness well too btw.
I know it won't. But I can dream. I really wanted a simulator. The transition from MW2 for the PS to MW2 for the PC was like "Whoa," and then MW3 came along and it's like "O_O"... and thank god I missed MW4 because apparently something happened there that basically "almost killed the franchise." Then MechAssault... and seeing videos, uh, yeah... It's the same thing "Front Mission Evolution" did to "Front Mission," killed the franchise for a while. I did enjoy both MechCommanders though.
MWO when it started, was the closest the franchise ever got to a simulation, and I couldn't throw my money at it fast enough. But then they changed directions. Simulation, within the limitations they had, wasn't "fun" for people that knew nothing of BT or MW. "How come I can only fire all my weapons twice?" ...Being able to get away with it once in 10 seconds is a bit more than you should be able to. "I die too fast." That wasn't actually the fault of the core rules, but the fact that everything could be fired at the same spot -- something that didn't really come up right away but much later down the line when the game changed directions. Before that it was that "Mechs take too long to die" and then "Everyone goes for the headshot, why are the heads so big"... so the first response is double armor, bringing us back to "mechs take too long to die" and "why are heads so big", and then they started fixing head sizes... and things got huge CTs... And just problem after problem after problem after problem. Each just a bandaid after another bandaid.
And man if I had that kind of money, I'd already be in production. I was really wanting to pick up MW:LL and use it as a testing bed but apparently some Russians did. Not that I mind. I just can't figure out how to install it anymore. If I could get a development version of it and maybe a single server, I can test and try my ideas.
Let me give you a single, quick example. Think about this for just one moment. What does most IS mechs have that Clans don't? Think on it. Don't click that second spoiler until you can think of at least one thing. My hints are in the first spoiler.
Spoiler
This 'Mech does NOT have it.
This 'Mech has it.
This 'Mech does not have it.
This 'Mech has it.
This 'Mech does not have it.
And this 'Mech not only has it but is actively using it.
What do the 'Mechs that have "it" have in common?
Spoiler
If you said pivot-able heads, you'd be correct! This is one thing that ~Most~ IS 'Mechs have over Clan mechs. Short of the Gargoyle and Executioner, what Clan Omni has pivoting heads in 3050? That's right, no other.
This is one way to buff IS 'Mechs without nerfing Clans or creating a power creep as PGI has done with the quirk system.
Picture this.. In a system without convergence, imagine the tactical advantage you would have with the ability to independently control each arm with a sensible aiming system? For example, lets say your typical "lean from cover keys" in first person shooters are Q and E. What if Q turned your 'head' left X degrees, allowing you to focus your aim in that direction? Aim too far for the right arm to go, and you'd only use your left. Now, say you're behind a building or barricade or some other thing for cover. You stick your left arm out from behind the cover, minimally exposing yourself -- you wouldn't even have to expose your head as convergence comes from the weapons to that direction that your crosshair is pointed -- and not the first raytrace that your cockpit's crosshair hits.
Akin to this killing blow where I fired, but convergence did not focus on the wall I was pointed at (due to delayed convergence, but lets say this was an intentional mechanic rather than a fluke of timing).
While Clans aren't alien to tactical combat, their zealous nature and quest for personal glory tends to alienate them from classic military tactical combat. It's cowardly to camp in cover. But the IS has no such notions, but nothing really enables this in MWO. Sure you can pop and shoot but it looks like crap and what really makes it work is bad hitboxes on the environment. I mean seriously look at all the invisible walls encountered in the first 2 minutes of this video.
Now, lets expand this a bit further. This half-assed Air Buster model from back in 2000 that I worked on and abandoned is your 'Mech for this explanation.
Lets say when using the head-left or head-right, your arms will raise.
But once you aim too far for one arm it will return to its default position. Arms without lower arm actuators will also remain in the default position.
Now you can shoot over cover and low walls.
And that's just one, very simple mechanic that would create an entirely different kind of tactical element to the gameplay as well as a huge distinction between 'Mechs. It's one of the smallest, most insignificant ideas I've had... but think about it. It's one thing that a lot more IS Mechs can use than Clans ever would be able to. Would super weapons be as necessary? Now also consider Clan range superiority -- it wouldn't be the camp fest it might initially sound like as the IS would be screwed if they relied on it for sniping. This also doesn't completely alienate the Clans. If their 'Mech can see in that direction and their arms are capable, they can still do something similar. But, unlike many IS 'Mechs, Clans lacking the pivoting head could never get the extreme sideways aiming capabilities.
"Now wait, that might greatly debilitate certain 'Mechs like the Catapult!"
Spoiler
You mean when 'Mechs with heads can aim around corners and aim to far lefts/rights without having to twist? Wait for it.
Now most people would actually mean the Catapult's inability to aim left or right at all reducing the viability of lock-on style missiles. PGI's bad game design did that.
Compare aiming in MWO to aiming in MW3. In MW3, you could aim and target at anything on screen regardless of actuators. Some 'Mechs, like the Locust, Rifleman, Jagermech, even Blackjack, are depicted as being able to aim left/right without lower arm actuators. Locusts even have a turret on top of that, as well as the ability to flip arms. So even when considering my belief that 'Mechs without torso twist should be without torso twist, it would still be more advantageous for the Locust with my designs than MWO's.
"But, what about that poor Catapult with its missiles? PGI's design already makes it a bad LRM platform due to having to directly face your enemies. And if it loses its torso twist like you're certain to ensure of because of 'lore', Koniving, it'll be DoA!"
Don't fret! If you can see it, you can lock onto it. Just use that targeting and tracking software that 'Mechs are detailed to have to look at what you want to lock onto and have at it. Even for dumb fire, just look and shoot. If you can see it, you can shoot at it. Also don't forget -- I'm a firm believe in arm-flipping! Flip those arms and shoot out of your aft-side! Glee! Actually you could deliberately flip a Catapult's arms to lower your vertical profile when running across low cover. Low hanging ears FTW!
"Wait, you're a lore enthusiast! That means goofy stuff like missile variants and having to have Homing LRMs to take advantage of TAG and NARC-enabled LRMs to take advantage of NARC and oh my gawd what about indirect fire and say we don't have the BT-lore enabled goodies that take advantage of TAG or NARC and such?"
What's this? You don't have any Homing LRMs and have no NARC-enabled S- or L-RMS? Or could you be packing Artemis-enhanced LRMs (which cannot use the 'Homing' (Tag-enabled) or NARC-enabled LRMs) but you don't have a visual and want indirect fire? Relax!I got you covered. Pop open that Battlegrid, target a coordinate, and fire away!
LRMs are great, because I believe in one times armor and lore-based interpretations of weapons. Missiles would be among the few front loaded damage weapons. But akin to the lore, you aren't gonna spam. Regular damage missile variants, one use per 10 seconds. Rapid fire missile variants might get 2 or 3 uses in the same time frame, but would still effectively be the same damage per 10 seconds.
Please notice that brings forth a choice and a tactical decision -- devastating hits with devastating misses, or more chances to hit but you need to make every hit to be as devastating, with the gaps of time in the front loaded version being large enough to make you sweat for every single shot.
I want you, as the player, to think during combat. I want to immerse you. I want to make you cross your fingers, wish for Lady Luck to bless you and hope nothing goes wrong when you go to fire those missiles. And when it does, expletives will shoot from your mouth like a Gatling gun as you panic from the incoming counter attack or with experience, you immediately fall back to your next move. And when you hit with that devastating blow and the crits roll and you get that spectacular kill, I want you to launch from your chair in excitement. I want you to have stories to tell to your friends about that one time you got two kills when the missiles launched debris from one 'Mech which crushed the cockpit of another 'Mech.
That's what I'd like to play and what I'd shoot for in design. A game or if possible a simulation, that will immerse you. That will live up to and surpass "Thinking Person's Shooter" and become the premeire "Thinking Person's Simulation."
--------
But back on the OP's topic and how my posts relate.. Consider the response back to FupDup in which I offered something that PGI could actually do near the end after acknowledging we couldn't rely on PGI to use the lore-proper solution or to actually follow the customization limitations for BattleMechs.
It used a lore-bound fact but akin to what PGI often does, it flipped the results of that fact to change it from "being stronger" to "being weaker." Kinda like "ECM counters BAP" was changed by PGI to "BAP counters ECM." Same premise, same level of B.S., but functionally sound for making balance out of poor design.
The concept basically implies that having Endo Steel would weaken your structure to attack. At first it implied possibly having less structure HP. But then I acknowledged that PGI would just quirk structure again if that happened. So instead I used Critical Hits.
Currently there's a Crit system in which 15% of the damage dealt by a critical hit to an exposed structure will be delivered as bonus damage to the structure. I'll iterate: With the current crit system
If I hit you with an AC/10, and no crit happens, I deal 10 damage to your structure.
If 1 crit happens, I deal 15% extra damage based on one crit of 10 damage, so the structure damage from that shot is 11.5 damage.
If the ultra rare 3 crits happens for 1 shot, 15% of (30 damage) is 4.5, and thus 10 base damage + 4.5 crit bonus damage = 14.5 damage to structure.
With my implied Endo balancing offer:
The above is true for Standard Structure. For Endo, it is 30% of crit damage.
If the AC/10 hits and has no crit, it does 10 damage to Endo Steel structure.
If the AC/10 hits and has 1 crit, it does 10 damage + 30% of crit damage (which for 1 crit of 10 damage, 30% of that is 3) and so 13 damage applies to endo steel structure (where against standard structure it would have been 11.5 damage).
If the ultra rare triple crit occurs, it'd do 30% bonus damage of three crits (1 crit being 10 damage, 3 crits being 30 damage, 30% of 30 is 9) so it'd deal 19 damage to the endo-steel structure (where it'd do 14.5 damage to standard structure).
There you have it. A trade off for endo steel that means something again without resorting to repair and rearm.
As for Ferro -- well that's your safe route! It's not as good, of course. But that's fine. It's safe.
Afraid of facing more than 3 good robots? Who would still be worse than the God Tier?
At least Wave III will change that instantly
/trollface
I know this may be an unpopular idea, but I genuinely think that quirks could help the bad Clan mechs if PGI weren't so gun-shy about them now. And, you know, if they weren't also really really bad at actually implementing meaningful ones.
For example, considering how heat dissipation quirks are basically like having a boatload of free heat sinks, that is one way that Mr Gargles could be helped.
Buuuuuut I know there are so many purists out there these days that would prefer to have 75% of Clan robots be bad, rather than conjuring the specter of the Quirk Monster.
I know this may be an unpopular idea, but I genuinely think that quirks could help the bad Clan mechs if PGI weren't so gun-shy about them now. And, you know, if they weren't also really really bad at actually implementing meaningful ones.
For example, considering how heat dissipation quirks are basically like having a boatload of free heat sinks, that is one way that Mr Gargles could be helped.
Buuuuuut I know there are so many purists out there these days that would prefer to have 75% of Clan robots be bad, rather than conjuring the specter of the Quirk Monster.
Heat dissipation quirks would allow for more energy boating...which is all it can do anyways.
There isn't a single mech with heat dissipations quirks at the moment though, which is strange. Awesome used to have it.
If the 6 engine heatsinks were TrueDubs, also a buff. Essentially 2.5 free heatsinks.
But, something tells me the quirks could never compare to 11 tons of lost pod space.
But, something tells me the quirks could never compare to 11 tons of lost pod space.
Yes and no, but that depends more on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.
For an extreme, and perhaps absurd, example, imagine they gave the Gargoyle-C left arm omnipod a 25% ballistic and a 25% Gauss cooldown bonus. In terms of DPS, that's functionally the equivalent of having a 2nd Gauss rifle, or an extra 12 tons of pod space.
Now, I can't speak for anyone else, but I think an 80ton Grid Iron running around at 89kph with Clan lasers backing it up would be a pretty fearsome sight, regardless of the fact that the raw alpha damage would be lower than, say, a dual gauss Ebon Jag. Hell, it may even be balanced by the fact that it would need more face time than a dual gauss boat (face time in a Gargle is bad).
Of course, quirks of that magnitude will probably never ever ever come again, but it does show what can be done with the system if the will were there to improve under-performers.
Ragtag soldier, on 29 April 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:
they're not bad at all, clan-baby. they're perfectly fine 'mechs, you guys are just so bad you need OP mechs to carry you in spite of your crap playstyle.
Come to my private lobby and put your money where your mouth is.
Ragtag soldier, on 29 April 2015 - 10:44 AM, said:
comparing your other choices to the objectively most potent mech in the game and then saying you want to buff your other 'mechs is like going into a burgerking to tell them they gave you extra fries with your meal, and you need them to give an extra burger to balance it out. you sad little crybaby.
On another note....why can a heavier mech NOT be better than a lighter mech IN A SINGLE ASPECT?!
It's already worse in every sense...why can't it be better in one?
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Koniving, on 28 April 2015 - 04:03 PM, said:
