80 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

sycocys, on 28 May 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

what isn't it optional to have the other one? I can understand if one is locked for lore/balance/Paul's fanciful whim or whatever - but why can't I on my Gargoyle which has a f-ton of unused slots no matter how I rig it simply equip endo? That extra 7 tons or whatever it comes out to is far more valuable than lost crit space.

could it use the Endo and still have some Crit-Space? yes,
but Endo would only give the GAR +4Tons, switching the Ferro for Endo gives +2Tons,
so you could have more Options Switching then Just unlocking, you also dont lose 7Crit-Space,
also its Implementation is bending the TT Rules, where as straight unlocking is breaking them,

Khobai, on 28 May 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

I dont think swapping should be allowed. Endo/Ferro should stay locked on clan mechs.

But maybe mechs that only have ferro should get endo instead. That would be a slight buff.

well the Idea of Upgrading to Endo Cant really happen in Lore, its imposable, Why?
because the Structure is the Mech, so Upgrading to Endo is actually Buying an Endo Frame,
that said, the MechLab(MechWarrio) or MechFactory(BattleTech) allows us to do this for Ease of use,
also In Lore their have been Clan Mechs that have been Specially build with Endo replacing Ferro,
its Rumored that Ranna Kerensky had one of these Special OmniMechs(WarHawk without Ferro),

[Andi Nagasia]

Anakha, on 28 May 2015 - 11:14 AM, said:

Heard anything more from Russ on this hope this makes the June patch?

nothing yet i know Adder Flamer removal is making it the 16th,
but as to MLX/Cap or Endo/Ferro Switching nothing yet, ill Tweet him,

[martian]

Andi Nagasia, on 28 May 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

well the Idea of Upgrading to Endo Cant really happen in Lore, its imposable, Why?
because the Structure is the Mech, so Upgrading to Endo is actually Buying an Endo Frame,
that said, the MechLab(MechWarrio) or MechFactory(BattleTech) allows us to do this for Ease of use,

The BattleTech rules explicitly say that changing chassis and armor on OmniMech is not allowed.

Andi Nagasia, on 28 May 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

also In Lore their have been Clan Mechs that have been Specially build with Endo replacing Ferro,
its Rumored that Ranna Kerensky had one of these Special OmniMechs(WarHawk without Ferro),

Really?
May I ask you to tell me where in canon materials have you read that?

[Ragtag soldier]

martian, on 19 June 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

Really?
May I ask you to tell me where in canon materials have you read that?

he's referring to having omnimechs refit with differant armor in a factory post-construction, which would render it a non-omni per the rules. since the books don't assume that a reader is looking for excuses to break rules he's cherry-picking his facts.

[Andi Nagasia]

martian, on 19 June 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

The BattleTech rules explicitly say that changing chassis and armor on OmniMech is not allowed.

Really?
May I ask you to tell me where in canon materials have you read that?

and BattleMechs cant as well, but they can here in MWO,
as i said if BattleMechs where constructed by Lore, you couldnt upgrade,
you would have to Buy its with its upgrades, and not Upgrade in the sense of the Word,
thats all i was saying,

Ragtag soldier, on 19 June 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

he's referring to having omnimechs refit with differant armor in a factory post-construction, which would render it a non-omni per the rules. since the books don't assume that a reader is looking for excuses to break rules he's cherry-picking his facts.

Andi Nagasia, on 29 April 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

=Story of Canon=
Ranna Kerensky had a WHK named Lupus which had Endo instead of Ferro,
her Death= A freak strike to the cockpit of her 'Mech killed Ranna Kerensky.
-
in TT a OmniMechs cant change how much armor they have,
in this case a WHK has 14Tons of Armor but with Ferro it also Gains 10% more,
as her had Endo Instead of Ferro she had 10% less armor than that Standard WHK,
which her GM allowed, it was this and a Crit that lead to the Pilots death,
(as this was a Choice allowed in TT, it should be allowed here)

as i said, Rannas WHK was said to have more Tonnage then a Normal WHK giving her an Edge in battle,
so a WHK having less Armor but more Tonnage, would point to the WHKs Ferro being Swapped with Endo,
it still remained and was referred to being an OmniMech, so i have to assume that it was still one,

im not Cherry Picking, im sorry if it seems like i was that wasnt my intention,
i just found a Lore occurrence where a Ferro to Endo Swap had happened in Lore,
it wouldnt make sense for me to give out misinformation, as it would hurt my Cause,

[martian]

Andi Nagasia, on 19 June 2015 - 05:24 PM, said:

and BattleMechs cant as well, but they can here in MWO,
as i said if BattleMechs where constructed by Lore, you couldnt upgrade,
you would have to Buy its with its upgrades, and not Upgrade in the sense of the Word,
thats all i was saying,

In BattleTech and in MWO you can change the type of chassis of a BattleMech and it will still be the same BattleMech.

But you can't change the type of chassis of an OmniMech because such swap would turn OmniMech into BattleMech - deleting its most fundamental quality.

Andi Nagasia, on 19 June 2015 - 05:24 PM, said:

as i said, Rannas WHK was said to have more Tonnage then a Normal WHK giving her an Edge in battle,
so a WHK having less Armor but more Tonnage, would point to the WHKs Ferro being Swapped with Endo,
it still remained and was referred to being an OmniMech, so i have to assume that it was still one,

Where in canon materials have you read that?

Andi Nagasia, on 19 June 2015 - 05:24 PM, said:

im not Cherry Picking, im sorry if it seems like i was that wasnt my intention,
i just found a Lore occurrence where a Ferro to Endo Swap had happened in Lore,
it wouldnt make sense for me to give out misinformation, as it would hurt my Cause,

Where in Lore was this mentioned?

[Andi Nagasia]

martian, on 19 June 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

In BattleTech and in MWO you can change the type of chassis of a BattleMech and it will still be the same BattleMech.

But you can't change the type of chassis of an OmniMech because such swap would turn OmniMech into BattleMech - deleting its most fundamental quality.

Where in canon materials have you read that?

Where in Lore was this mentioned?

your miss understanding me,

in BattleTech you dont Upgrade a BattleMech,
you call the Factory and have them make you one with Endo/Ferro, you cant upgrade them,
im not saying BattleMechs cant get Endo or Ferro, im saying in BattleTech you cant really upgrade,
even in TT, you would have to Strip the parts off a BattleMech and place them on an Endo Frame,
so your not upgrading a Mech to Endo, your taking a Mech with Endo and placing on your parts,

i think it was in the Lost Destiny, Lethal Heritage, or FM: Warden Clans,
as the BattleTech Novels are based on actual TT games, thats also the source im using as well,
looking up the actual People and Games of which the stories where written of off, the Source,

Lupus(WHK) had MoreTonnage@LessArmor, so im assuming it was a Ferro/Endo Swap,
now am i 100% Sure no, im assuming so based on the information in TT and in the Novels,
ive have listed how Endo/Ferro Swapping is possible within the TT Omni Construction Rules,
which doesnt explicitly break the Rules, as the Rules say only those points Must be Fixed,
this is not an Upgrade but an Upgrade Swap so the number of Upgrades stays the same,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 19 June 2015 - 08:48 PM.

[martian]

Andi Nagasia, on 19 June 2015 - 08:42 PM, said:

your miss understanding me,

in BattleTech you dont Upgrade a BattleMech,
you call the Factory and have them make you one with Endo/Ferro, you cant upgrade them,
im not saying BattleMechs cant get Endo or Ferro, im saying in BattleTech you cant really upgrade,
even in TT, you would have to Strip the parts off a BattleMech and place them on an Endo Frame,
so your not upgrading a Mech to Endo, your taking a Mech with Endo and placing on your parts,

In BattleTech, you can upgrade a BattleMech - you don't have to call the factory to make you a new 'Mech. The BattleTech rules let you upgrade a BattleMech with Endo-steel. You have examples from BattleTech canon fo such refits.

Andi Nagasia, on 19 June 2015 - 08:42 PM, said:

i think it was in the Lost Destiny, Lethal Heritage, or FM: Warden Clans,
as the BattleTech Novels are based on actual TT games, thats also the source im using as well,
looking up the actual People and Games of which the stories where written of off, the Source,

Lupus(WHK) had MoreTonnage@LessArmor, so im assuming it was a Ferro/Endo Swap

All you have to do is to show some proof. Post the relevant quote.

Andi Nagasia, on 19 June 2015 - 08:42 PM, said:

Sure no, im assuming so based on the information in TT and in the Novels,
ive have listed how Endo/Ferro Swapping is possible within the TT Omni Construction Rules, which doesnt explicitly break the Rules, as the Rules say only those points Must be Fixed,
this is not an Upgrade but an Upgrade Swap so the number of Upgrades stays the same,
Edit-

Sorry, it breaks the rules. The BattleTech rules know no such "Upgrade Swaps". Chassis type is one of many defining traits of each OmniMech. Changing it would mean that your OmniMech stops being an OmniMech.

Edited by martian, 19 June 2015 - 10:39 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

martian, on 19 June 2015 - 10:28 PM, said:

In BattleTech, you can upgrade a BattleMech - you don't have to call the factory to make you a new 'Mech. The BattleTech rules let you upgrade a BattleMech with Endo-steel. You have examples from BattleTech canon fo such refits.

All you have to do is to show some proof. Post the relevant quote.

Sorry, it breaks the rules. The BattleTech rules know no such "Upgrade Swaps". Chassis type is one of many defining traits of each OmniMech. Changing it would mean that your OmniMech stops being an OmniMech.

so TT Rules are allowed to work past Canon?
which is the point im trying to make,

that is true i really dont have much in the lines of true Proof,
i have assumptions from excerpts of Text and the Sources,

i know this Case is thin, and may seem like Bending the TT Rules,
but i also know that MWO(and most MW games) didnt follow the TT Rules,
many of the things BattleMech can do in MWO they cant do in TT,

[Lugin]

Andi Nagasia, on 20 June 2015 - 07:43 AM, said:

so TT Rules are allowed to work past Canon?
which is the point im trying to make,

that is true i really dont have much in the lines of true Proof,
i have assumptions from excerpts of Text and the Sources,

i know this Case is thin, and may seem like Bending the TT Rules,
but i also know that MWO(and most MW games) didnt follow the TT Rules,
many of the things BattleMech can do in MWO they cant do in TT,

Tech Manual, pg 8 said:

FICTION VS. RULES
It is important to remember that regardless of the critical role
fiction plays in immersing players in the Classic BattleTech universe,
such fiction should never be construed as rules.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Lugin,
Well Played,

that said if a Change such as Ferro to Endo Swapping was allowed by an Official FASA TT GM,
than would it be considered an Abridge and Supplement to the Rules, and as such be allowed?
as Ferro to Endo Swapping more so Bends the Rules then out right break them,

[GXMan]

Hi all

By way of introduction, I'm from Singapore and I've been playing since Closed Beta. I have never played TT, but have an extensive collection of Battletech fiction.

Anyway, I found this quote from sarna:

"[color=#000000]Despite their benefits in flexibility and maintenance, OmniMechs have distinct limitations in regard to cost and logistics. OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components (its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech) are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech.[/color][color=#000000] While customization of these components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms the OmniMech into a standard BattleMech." ([/color]http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech , under the disadvantages section)

In essence, I'm suggesting that applying the various upgrades (or even engine changes) to an Omnimech should lock the mech into its stock pod-configuration. (ie. The B variant will remain locked with B omnipods.) This will open an endless bundle of customization options available to players and add variety to gameplay. It will also give omnimechs a very different flavor and has great potential to increase the game's replayability.

TL;DR - Unlock upgrades, engines and fixed equipment, lock pods.

[Andi Nagasia]

@GXMan
Although at first glance your idea seems like a good one,
The problem is it would open up to exploitation of a lot of factors,
As you can imagine how people would exploit this I'm not going to go into details,
Currently interSphere have BattleMechs and clan have OmniMechs,
I currently don't see this changing as they give each side its own distinct flavor,
However only half of MWO follow the TT rules, I feel this is the problem,
The point I'm trying to make is you either have to fully follow the TT rules or disregard them,
No one can just pick and choose which rules they want to follow and which they want to ignore,
In essence we should get either
more customizability with OmniMechs, which is supposedly against TT,
Or we should be allowed to swap OmniPods between any OmniMech as in TT,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 23 June 2015 - 10:37 AM.

[Twilight Fenrir]

Just replying to the initial post, haven't followed any of the discussion so far...

I came i to this thread expecting more angry unreasonable rants... But this is a fairly reasonable suggestion. I'm still opposed to it, because that's how Omni Mechs are SUPPOSED to be. They have hard-locked upgrades, engines, heatsinks, etc. That's what enables them to be modular.


Now, ferro IS something I'd like to see tweaked slightly, for both sides to make it a viable trade for Endo in certain situations...

Make Ferro require a fewer number of criticals, proportionate to the difference in weight savings. Then it becomes a better balance of choice. Are all your criticals full with Endo, but you have an extra ton or two? Switch it to ferro and squeeze in that extra double heatsink. Want every ton you can get for big guns? Endo is for you!

[Andi Nagasia]

The problem with making Ferro have less the Crit slots is it breaks OmniMechs,
Who are forced to have those locked crits, in this case doing just that would break the rules,
As where my idea on being able to switch them is more bending been explicitly breaking the rules,
I'm using the actual rules in TT about OmniMech construction not the fluff description of how it works,

[Hades Trooper]

will never happen, IF PGI makes a myst lynx have a fixed beagle prob when it can carry ECM, what do you expect?

PGI hates clans, they just like the money clans earn.

GXMan, on 23 June 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

Hi all

By way of introduction, I'm from Singapore and I've been playing since Closed Beta. I have never played TT, but have an extensive collection of Battletech fiction.

Anyway, I found this quote from sarna:

"[color=#000000]Despite their benefits in flexibility and maintenance, OmniMechs have distinct limitations in regard to cost and logistics. OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components (its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech) are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech.[/color][color=#000000] While customization of these components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms the OmniMech into a standard BattleMech." ([/color]http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech , under the disadvantages section)

In essence, I'm suggesting that applying the various upgrades (or even engine changes) to an Omnimech should lock the mech into its stock pod-configuration. (ie. The B variant will remain locked with B omnipods.) This will open an endless bundle of customization options available to players and add variety to gameplay. It will also give omnimechs a very different flavor and has great potential to increase the game's replayability.

TL;DR - Unlock upgrades, engines and fixed equipment, lock pods.

I would agree with you if PGI hadn't reduced the range and damage on almost every clan weapon and make clan uac a min gun.

When PGI removes all the nerfs on weapons for clans which is whyn they had these restrictions in the 1st place then we can talk, till then WHY the flark not can't a clan mech take endo as an upgrade?

[Anakha]

Russ ever comment anymore on this? Would really help those underperforming mechs like the Summoner that could really use more tonnage.

[Andi Nagasia]

Anakha, on 09 July 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

Russ ever comment anymore on this? Would really help those underperforming mechs like the Summoner that could really use more tonnage.

he hasnt yet, but i can shoot him another Tweet,
when we talked he didnt seem against it as its ok with Lore and Balance,
and it gives nothing to the Over achieving mechs wail helping others,

[CDLord HHGD]

Pjwned, on 29 April 2015 - 02:44 PM, said:

Why not instead fix the underlying problem of Ferro Fibrous armor being terrible?

Sry, late to the discussion here.

First, I oppose the straight swap between FF and ES because it would totally invalidate FF on Clan mechs. Ever think that FF is used on Clan mechs as a balance mechanic? Those extra tons between FF and ES could mean all the difference in balance.

Secondly, FF is from TT. It's not equal to ES and never was meant to be. I always choose ES first, but there are times when I need both and other times I use FF instead. It has it's uses.

[sycocys]

Warhawk definitely doesn't need it. Mad Dog really doesn't either. Haven't played the others much, but just going by the two on the list I have played - I doubt this is really needed, or would do much if anything to balance these mechs out.