80 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

cdlord, on 30 October 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:

Sry, late to the discussion here.

First, I oppose the straight swap between FF and ES because it would totally invalidate FF on Clan mechs. Ever think that FF is used on Clan mechs as a balance mechanic? Those extra tons between FF and ES could mean all the difference in balance.

Secondly, FF is from TT. It's not equal to ES and never was meant to be. I always choose ES first, but there are times when I need both and other times I use FF instead. It has it's uses.

well i dont think an extra 2 tons will break these Mechs,
with 2 more tons on the MDD will have the same tonnage as the EBJ with lower mounts and Higher posture,
with 2 more tons on the WHK will have more tonnage for Ammo, but wont help Energy builds due to CritSpace,
and the 2 more tons for the SMN and GAR wont really give them anything to shift Meta and Balance,

true its not, but this isnt really TT and also in MWO all Ferro is is weaker Weight Saving Upgrade,
Now if Ferro also increased how much armor you could carry by 10% as well as decrease the weight,
than that would be different all together but as it is right now Endo is always better than Ferro in MWO,

sycocys, on 30 October 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

Warhawk definitely doesn't need it. Mad Dog really doesn't either. Haven't played the others much, but just going by the two on the list I have played - I doubt this is really needed, or would do much if anything to balance these mechs out.

well again both will only gain 2 tons, so it will mostly help Ammo Driven Builds,
and the WubHawk wont benefit from this as it lacks space for more DHS,

[Navid A1]

A bit late... but i support this.

[Steve Pryde]

Navid A1, on 03 August 2016 - 09:51 PM, said:

A bit late... but i support this.

This

It would help mediocre omnimechs like Summoner, Gargoyle and Executioner. And even a Dire Wolf with endosteel doesn't sound that op (LOL!) then there is the Kodiak on the field.

[cazidin]

...We could have had both C-FF AND C-ES unlocked?! WHY DID YOU ASK FOR JUST ONE?!

[Chuck Jager]

I think in this version of the game no mech should be allowed to have ferro without endo first. Stock mechs - I get it (not really just being nice). The ferro thing is a sinkhole for newer players who are already gimped when it come to building mechs and lack of funds.

The extra tonnage would be great on a Hellbringer.

[Andi Nagasia]

cazidin, on 04 August 2016 - 07:01 AM, said:

...We could have had both C-FF AND C-ES unlocked?! WHY DID YOU ASK FOR JUST ONE?!

actually im not asking for Endo to be unlocked,
im asking for an Option for OmniMechs that Have Ferro, allowing them to Swap it for Endo,
this is Actually within the BT Lore and possible with OmniMech Special Construction Rules,
Edit- spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 04 August 2016 - 11:53 AM.

[Battlemaster56]

It be nice to have endo on certain omni's, but I feel it unnecessary personally I see that omni's that have locked ferro but no endo is usually build around a niche (mobility, specific weapon boating, and firepower) and come off with a trade off and just adding endo make em into another set of Timberwolves, Cauldron Borns, and whatever the super meta mech is. But ah'll support it.

[SMDMadCow]

Andi Nagasia, on 04 August 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

actually im not asking for Endo to be unlocked,
im asking for an Option for OmniMechs that Have Ferro, allowing them to Swap it for Endo,
this is Actually within the BT Lore and possible with OmniMech Special Construction Rules,
Edit- spelling

It is, BUT then it turns into a standard battlemech and loses the ability to mount omni-pods if you alter the structure/engine.

An OmniMech's structural components (its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech) are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech.[30] While customization of these components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms the OmniMech into a standard BattleMech.
↑ TechManual, p. 53 "BattleMech Construction - Step 2: Install Engines and Control Systems"

Edited by SMDMadCow, 04 August 2016 - 12:30 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

SMDMadCow, on 04 August 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

It is, BUT then it turns into a standard battlemech and loses the ability to mount omni-pods if you alter the structure/engine.

An OmniMech's structural components (its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech) are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech.[30] While customization of these components is theoretically possible in the field, it is avoided as it hard-wires all the 'Mechs components and effectively transforms the OmniMech into a standard BattleMech.
↑ TechManual, p. 53 "BattleMech Construction - Step 2: Install Engines and Control Systems"

there has been Times in Lore where a Elite Units had special OmniMech Variants,
such as Ranna Kerensky who had a WHK Lupus that had Endo instead of Ferro,
how else can you Explain that Lupus was still an Omni, had 2 Tons more, at less Armor,
an OmniMech can threw Mech Factory change its Upgrade from Ferro to Endo and Remain an OmniMech,

its also Know that OmniMechs can Change their Engine Type, such as going from an XL to a STD,
as well as Any OmniMech can Equip JJ, and ECM, though in MWO i dont think thats Likely,
Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 04 August 2016 - 01:09 PM.

[JC Daxion]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 29 April 2015 - 03:48 PM, said:

I'd rather see standard structure give internals a 10-20% boost to hitpoints. Then you can throw FF on as a weight saving method. So do you want the large weight savings of Endo at the cost of standard number of internal health? Or do you want to take standard structure for a boost to internal health at the cost of having less available tonnage?

Tl; dr, give a reason for standard structure to exist and you'll see a rise in the usage of ferro.

*idea is the courtesy of 1453R

I like this.. Standard structure getting an HP boost is something i would really like to see. For one, It would give those OMNI mechs a bonus, to make um a bit more tanky, and honestly each one of those mechs could benefit with that, as they are not Top performers, so makes them a bit different than some of the other clan mechs..


On the IS side it could really be intersting. Especially if you have mechs that already have structure+armor quirks, being able to stack even more bonus might be quite interesting, especially considering often people that forgo Endo, often run an XL engine, and use the extra space for heat sinks. So in some ways, it could buff some select builds on certain mechs.. Perhaps making an XL safer in something like a Victor perhaps. Or atlas's that often don't run Endo, getting even more tanky for those big brawlers.

As for Ferro, I always thought it should add something other than weight reduction.. Personally i always thought it needed a Bonus to Projectile resistance, 5-10%? (then add a Reflective version of Ferro that was weight reduction+ 5-10% energy resistance) I could swear that is how it worked in one of the previous games.

Now if you added both, Perhaps that could be something that could be attached to Clan torso's Perhaps some have standard, and others reflective, giving more reasons to use different variants outside of quirks.

[SMDMadCow]

Andi Nagasia, on 04 August 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

there has been Times in Lore where a Elite Units had special OmniMech Variants,
such as Ranna Kerensky who had a WHK Lupus that had Endo instead of Ferro,
how else can you Explain that Lupus was still an Omni, had 2 Tons more, at less Armor,
an OmniMech can threw Mech Factory change its Upgrade from Ferro to Endo and Remain an OmniMech,

its also Know that OmniMechs can Change their Engine Type, such as going from an XL to a STD,
as well as Any OmniMech can Equip JJ, and ECM, though in MWO i dont think thats Likely,
Edit- Spelling

Need sources. the JJ and other equipment is covered under the techmanual I just quoted.
Do we as players have a mech factory available? Looks like we're just hanging out in ye ol mech bay, sounds like something they could put in a proper CW though.

Because I found this on Sarna:
Her preferred 'Mech was the Warhawk (Inner Sphere designation: Masakari) which she had named Lupus
-nothing about it being custom

Edited by SMDMadCow, 04 August 2016 - 01:35 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

SMDMadCow, on 04 August 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

Need sources. the JJ and other equipment is covered under the techmanual I just quoted.
Do we as players have a mech factory available? Looks like we're just hanging out in ye ol mech bay, sounds like something they could put in a proper CW though.

Because I found this on Sarna:
Her preferred 'Mech was the Warhawk (Inner Sphere designation: Masakari) which she had named Lupus
-nothing about it being custom

Actually yes we do, BattleMechs in MWO have Full Mech Factory Retrofit Capability, thats what our Mech Lab is,
OmniMechs Created in the Factory could be Created with Certain Upgrades Endo/Ferro, EngineType Changes,
Im asking for a Swap Because it Keeps OmniMechs Different than BattleMechs vs just unlocking them,

Not Everything BT can be found on Sarna, Such as OmniMechs being able to Change their Engine Type,
also you wont find all the Weapons Available in BattleTech on Sarna Ether, Please See the I-PPC,

[SMDMadCow]

Andi Nagasia, on 04 August 2016 - 04:54 PM, said:

Actually yes we do, BattleMechs in MWO have Full Mech Factory Retrofit Capability, thats what our Mech Lab is,
OmniMechs Created in the Factory could be Created with Certain Upgrades Endo/Ferro, EngineType Changes,
Im asking for a Swap Because it Keeps OmniMechs Different than BattleMechs vs just unlocking them,

Not Everything BT can be found on Sarna, Such as OmniMechs being able to Change their Engine Type,
also you wont find all the Weapons Available in BattleTech on Sarna Ether, Please See the I-PPC,

I'm not so sure, looks more like the inside of a drop ship. Has it been defined? Can you provide a source saying otherwise?

No, not everything can be found on Sarna, but enough of it can be and a lot of it is source cited. Would you like to point out where in the Techmanual or Total Warfare or other publication where these 'rules' exist?

If you want to use the lore/rules to prove your point then put up citations of that lore/rule, like I did with the Techmanual.

Edited by SMDMadCow, 04 August 2016 - 05:42 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

SMDMadCow, on 04 August 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

I'm not so sure, looks more like the inside of a drop ship. Has it been defined? Can you provide a source saying otherwise?

No, not everything can be found on Sarna, but enough of it can be and a lot of it is source cited. Would you like to point out where in the Techmanual or Total Warfare or other publication where these 'rules' exist?

If you want to use the lore/rules to prove your point then put up citations of that lore/rule, like I did with the Techmanual.

yes the MechLab looks like a Hangar, but im not debating that,
Currently in MWO BattleMechs Enjoy Full Mech Factory Customization,
This means their Weapons, Armor, Upgrades, Engines Ect Could be Changed,
Which in lore it could tame Months of not Years, this had to be done at a Mech Factory,
this is less like Changing your Car Sterio, and more like Ordering a new Car with only what you wanted in it,
-
OmniMechs where Able to Change out Pods in the Field, allowing them to Change in days not months(their TT Benefit),
OmniMechs also also able to Equip JJ, and ECM, as they pleased as that was part of their Construction Rules,
but in MWO OmniMechs are Extreamly restricted, and have much less than they should,
-
if you had a MechFactory you could make a WHK with Endo, 4JJ(in the Legs) and no Locked DHS,
as if left the MechFactory it would be locked in its state but it would still be an OmniMech,

In this BattleMechs Enjoy Full MechFactory Refits,
but OMniMechs are over Locked, and bearly have Feild RetroFits,

and before Anyone Brings up OmniPods allow Hard Point Min/Maxing,
Most if not All BattleMechs get Hard Point inflation giving them much more Viability,
OmniMechs dont get Hard Point Inflation, Poor NVA-C RA(no weapons and not even good Quirks)

[Navid A1]

To re-iterate:

This thread is not about "unlocking" endo
it is about the ability to "swap" upgrades.. meaning that if mech as FF armor it would gain the ability to swap for Endo.
This does not break lore builds as you are just replacing every FF slot with endo slot and you gain a very small free tonnage.

Mechs with no upgrades remain the same, and mechs with both remain the same.

[Angel of Annihilation]

I think at this point it is pretty ridiculous that at this point in the game that Clan Omni-mechs still have as many build restrictions as they do. I mean the whole point of them having these restrictions was because when they first came out, Clan weapons and equipment was superior to IS weapons and equipment. Well fast forward to balancing version 100.1 and most of those advantages the clan had have totally disappeared.

Clan XL Engine Advantage - gone to at least mostly gone due to PGI stacking tons of structure in IS side torsos making it much, much harder to actually take out a side torso even if the IS mech is running an XL and the IS is at a huge advantage if it is running a standard engine.

Clan Weapon Advantage - Gone. The Range advantage has been mostly offset with IS getting quirks that give IS weapons almost the same range and if those quirks don't other quirks will give IS weapons some other advantage to compensate. Further Clan weapons have been virtually crippled by heat nerf after hear neaf making what based on lore was suppose to be supremely cool running mechs, on average run must hotter than IS mechs.

Clan DHS advantage - Gone - Sure Clans can mount more DHS but quirks strike again, often giving IS mechs a huge advantage in dealing with heat comparable to any amount of extra DHS a Clan Mech can mount. Also there are SO MANY Clan mechs with fixed structure, armor, equipment, and locked, unuseable heat sink slots in the engine, etc that often despite the smaller size of Clan DHS, you really can't actually mount more DHS than a typical IS mech.

Basically the only advantage Clan mechs still have is the ability to switch omni-pods around to customize where your hard points are located but considering how restricted the hard points on each omni-pod are, this is mostly just cosmetic and just about as restrictive a what you have with IS mechs anyway.

On the other hand, IS mechs aside from hardpoints are 100% customizable. All the structure and armor slots are dynamic, Armor and Structure can be freely swapped. Engines can be freely swapped. JJs can either be removed or moved to other locations in the mech to free up critical slots in other areas and ad more equipment. Equipment is never fixed and can be put anywhere there is a free slot. All or none of the engine heat sink slots can be used. I mean seriously, how is this in any way, shape, form or fashion balanced any more?

So it is about time PGI started relaxing some of the build restrictions on Clan mechs. Let us change the armor types. Let us use all the slots in the engine of the mech for DHS. Let is remove or relocate JJs or other equipment. Make the armor and structure slots dynamic. Basically free up the restrictions a bit and allow us to actually customize the mechs that BY LORE are actually supposed to be customizable.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 05 August 2016 - 05:36 AM.

[Lucian Nostra]

SMDMadCow, on 04 August 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

I'm not so sure, looks more like the inside of a drop ship. Has it been defined? Can you provide a source saying otherwise?

No, not everything can be found on Sarna, but enough of it can be and a lot of it is source cited. Would you like to point out where in the Techmanual or Total Warfare or other publication where these 'rules' exist?

If you want to use the lore/rules to prove your point then put up citations of that lore/rule, like I did with the Techmanual.

Lol he tells you IS has mech factory access and tells you why but because of pgis visuals you don't believe it?

Let me lol again.

Seriously you think taking apart your entire mech to rebuild it from the ground up is something you can just do outside a factory? Taking out a FUSION engine, the CORE of a mech for another one?

Yet again lol

[SMDMadCow]

Lucian Nostra, on 05 August 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

Lol he tells you IS has mech factory access and tells you why but because of pgis visuals you don't believe it?

Let me lol again.

Seriously you think taking apart your entire mech to rebuild it from the ground up is something you can just do outside a factory? Taking out a FUSION engine, the CORE of a mech for another one?

Yet again lol

IIRC, you can change engines in a drop ship mechbay. Its actually harder to replace structure as its the underlying skeleton of the mech which requires. a factory. Nice job trolling though, its cute.

[Lucian Nostra]

SMDMadCow, on 05 August 2016 - 06:59 AM, said:

IIRC, you can change engines in a drop ship mechbay. Its actually harder to replace structure as its the underlying skeleton of the mech which requires. a factory. Nice job trolling though, its cute.

Nope sorry champ engine internal gyro and cockpit and case are all factory level changes.

And I love how you think we don't have factories but state structure needs a factory.... how do you think you've been putting endo into all those IS mechs?

Legendary founder 900+ posts... this topic has come up a lot.

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 05 August 2016 - 07:15 AM.

[SMDMadCow]

Lucian Nostra, on 05 August 2016 - 07:14 AM, said:

Legendary founder 900+ posts... this topic has come up a lot.

Are you trying to shame me through post-count? Because thats HILARIOUS. OMG so cute.

You do bring up a good point though, we do effectively have factory level capabilities. And I do agree that omnis are getting shafted, but I also think you should just deal with it.