1189 replies to this topic

[Kartr]

Apparently you can only have so many quotes in a single post, so here's the last bit I couldn't fit in the previous post:

Catamount, on 22 February 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

Wear down? I'd bet you $10 that a week after the Federation appear, the Imperium would collapse under its own oppression and political instability into civil war, and half the Imperium (including the military) would split away and join the fight with the Federation. Honestly, what does the Imperium offer them to convince them to do otherwise, threats of death? That's about all they have to offer, and it's a hollow threat when Galaxy class starships start appearing above your worlds

I'll take that bet and double or nothing a week after the Federation appears it has been consumed by Chaos Daemons or gone over to the Imperium for survival.
Further who cares about a Galaxy class starship? Give me a lance battery and I'll give you Federation wreckage.

[Zakatak]

How about a freaking challenge for you guys? No Deathstar since the power generation of it simply isn't possible by any explanable means.

Atlantis, fully armed, all upgrades, maximum power:
- 3 ZPM's (about ~600 Yottajoules of energy, universe in a bottle)
- 9-digit FTL speeds (in c) or instantaneous travel with Wormhole drive
- Over a thousand of Drones (low gigaton yields at maximum setting, ship-to-ship)
- 5km x 5km x 2km in size (still not entirely discovered yet)
- 24 Puddle Jumpers (perfect cloaking, carries 12 drones, around 100g acceleration)
- Subspace sensors that cover an entire dwarf galaxy (and communications)
- 2 BC-304 class ships that... totally own (has Asgard teleporters/replicators and F-302 fighters)

If you need an idea of Ancient technology, the Destiny gains power by sitting in the corona of blue giants and has been doing so for 50 million years. Also, toying with Ancient technology (a single powerplant the size of a van) destroyed a solar system. There you go.

How does Star Trek/WH40k stack up?

Edited by Zakatak, 22 February 2012 - 02:39 PM.

[Toothman]

All wrong. The Vorlon from Babylon 5 kill them all then make pancakes.

[Ilithi Dragon]

GDL Rahsan, on 22 February 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Well, thanks Dragon I havn't seen bit of info before.( I remain specktical about it but it's there).

No problem. I love this stuff, it's my biggest hobby. } : = 8 ) I've got a lot more information to provide on how Trek stacks up technologically vs the Imperium; I've got some notes I was jotting down at work today, so I'll have that up here later, and in the meantime you can browse through Catamount and my posts in the forum, we've posted a lot of information in that regard already (this is like the 3rd or 4th time we've been going over it, the thread has been going that long).

GDL Rahsan, on 22 February 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Oh and by the way you seem to be understating the materials the Imperium use. According to fluff (( that which I recall right now anyway)) the Imperium or whatever it was back started developing materials that are more resistent to energy and generally more powerful than their current ones (( which I believe were steel, titanium etc )) during the circa of 3000-6000 the current versions Plasteel, ceramic, Admantanium etc are the highly advanced versions of those which were created around 20,000-30,000 probably before 25,000 since that is when the age of strife began thought they didn't specify any differences sadly except the ones you can read around in any WH40K wiki but it is safe to say that they are more resistant than materials like iron or steel. (( I will try to look up more info about this for you))

I'd wondered as much. Based on the name, though, I'd assumed that plasteel was some sort of polymer molecule arrangement of iron, or some polymer molecule composite based around iron. Basic elements can have very interesting properties when assembled in the right molecular structures. If you have any other details on what plasteel is, though, that would definitely be useful.

GDL Rahsan, on 22 February 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

For how does Imperium teleporting technology work it is hard to say since I think they have a number of ways the most known one is a device that creates a gellar field around you ((which prevents deamons from attacking you and somehow greatly lessen the maddening effects of the warp on you if not nullify them not explained how)) the targetting system was not mentioned if it ever exists but the fluff say that after transferring the person into the warp he can actually navigate his way to the desired location without the need for a target lock(( again not specified how)). For the normal teleporters that teleport troops etc they function like the Star Trek versions except they send their troops throught the warp those types do use a target lock on to achieve a succesful teleport.

That makes a degree of sense, given what we know about the Warp, etc. They probably wouldn't be able to even attempt the general teleport through Trek shields; the one guy in the gellar field could probably try, though I doubt he'd have much success.

GDL Rahsan, on 22 February 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

For the Imperium amount of worlds, the 1 million of worlds that are always considered a part of the IoM are actually just the nearby planets which are advanced enough to communicate with the core worlds of the Imperium ((all of which are either hive worlds, forge worlds, agri worlds, and osme are death worlds used for getting the elite recruits for marines but those ons are rare in the current million worlds)). The IoM might actually have even more forge worlds all around since those are made by the Adeptus not the IoM and they usually keep their forge worlds only for them without letting the rest of the IoM knowing about it. So basically saying that 95% of the IoM worlds are between stonge age to Information age is a great understatement the Imperium must have many hive, forge, agri, etc worlds that they dont always keep tabs on them becuase of communication problems. I mean logically if they were indeed 95% the IoM warmachine would have stopped in its tracks thousands of years ago.

Yes, there is the 1 million minimum that is officially listed, with a number of other worlds that may or may not be under Imperium control at any given time. Every reference that I've seen has been in the millions, though, and not tens or hundreds of millions, just millions, which would imply single-digit millions (hence why I used 4 million as the average number of planets under Imperium control at any given time in my last post).

That said, I know for sure that that minimum 1 million figure is NOT all hive worlds and forge worlds and other hyper-developed worlds. The wiki specifically lists that there are 32,000 Hive Worlds (plus some change). That is decidedly less than 1 million. Even assuming comparable numbers for Forge Worlds and other major developed worlds, you're still only going to get 20% of 1 million between Hive Worlds, Forge Worlds, Agri-Worlds, Mine Worlds and Armory Worlds (5% of the 4 million worlds figure I used in my last post). The rest are far less developed worlds or effectively dead/minimally-inhabited worlds.

GDL Rahsan, on 22 February 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

EDIT: Well I am off for now hope the new info gets you some fun in your silly wars that will never actually happen.

"There is much pleasure to be had from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russel

Zakatak, on 22 February 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

This topic made me realize why I dislike Trek so much.

The CIC/Bridge members being frontline soldiers, 100 redshirts being killed every episode and not even getting a salute (let alone a funeral), having fights at 500m despite 1 billion km ranges and warp strafing being possible, over embundance of technobabble and extremely conveniant technologies, saving the Earth at the 11th hour with some scientific epiphany. Bleh.

Ha, a little exagerated, but then, what sci-fi franchise on TV/movies hasn't delved into the absurd for the sake of entertainment?

Zakatak, on 22 February 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

Babylon 5. What kind of weapon outputs do they have? It seems to increase greatly as the series goes on. Omega-class destroyers having like 0.5g acceleration and 2 megaton nukes, to 64 megaton beams and 50g Whitestars with super-armor.

B5 is interesting. I don't know much about it (haven't had the chance to marathon through it yet), but from what I do know of it they seem to go through a lot of advancement and change of technological capabilities over the course of the series, which is cool.




Now, I had more I wanted to get up (specifically a tech comparison of 40K vs Trek for GDL Rahsan, and a response to Kartr, who should read my last post), but Catamount is pestering me to continue our game in the Final Frontier mod for Civ IV, so it'll have to wait.
} : = 8 )

[Catamount]

You know, pending a full response, I will say this much about kartr's post; it's yet another case in which 40k fans always seem to be the most belligerent posters. Irony much? (sans you, GDL)

[Insidious Johnson]

Perguru, on 22 February 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Babylon 5 will win ( or the Crusade)

Agreed. Not listed for that reason probably.

[Kartr]

Catamount, on 22 February 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

You know, pending a full response, I will say this much about kartr's post; it's yet another case in which 40k fans always seem to be the most belligerent posters. Irony much? (sans you, GDL)

Eh I'm hardly a 40K fan, I've read a couple books and played Dawn of War. The reason I get belligerent is because I am tired of Trek ****. For years now people have been grossly over stating the capabilities of Replicators and Phasers. The whole holographic foundries idea might work, until someone sabotages the power plant.

And now having read Illith's post: Phasers cannot just shift some of the NDF chain reaction, fission like effects into an "alternate phase-sync" they have to shift ALL of it. Because we don't see continued reactions of exploding material. We see one detonation, followed by cratering with no following explosions from any sort of chain reaction. This points to a much simpler and more conventional weapon, particle cannon maybe, when looking at the effects of ships weapon fire. As for ground phasers there's still no explanation better than it beams the target directly to hell.

As for the number of worlds and the relative contribution they can make. Modern militaries would destroy any ground forces Trek has to offer up to and including the Borg. Modern weapons and combined arms simple have better range, greater accuracy, greater ease of handling etc. So any worlds that are roughly on par with modern technology can produce ground troops and vehicles that can destroy any Trek armies. Trek personal shields appear to be useless against simple slug throwers and the military vehicles used by the Federation are laughable.

Also I pointed out how not every world needs to be at the pinnacle of technology in order to be an important contributor to the war effort. Raw materials, food stuffs, bodies, etc. None of those vital war materials require high technology to be on planet.

/sigh just tired of the Trek ****, starting to wish I'd steered clear of this thread. Oh well next time I'll know better.

[Catamount]

In other words, you're just a condescending ******* by nature, who thinks he's the only one who has any grasp of real world science (it's not like a pair of science majors would, or anything), because he assumes that automatically anyone who says anything that doesn't seem right to him couldn't possibly have any caveats or further explanations to explain his objections, because he reflexively pigeonholes people, and just assumes stupidity?

I see.

Most or all of what you've said is easily addressed by anyone remotely familiar with Trek canon, but you never offered anyone the chance to give those explanations.


If that's your mode of posting out of the gate, then frankly, maybe you should just avoid these forums altogether.

Edited by Catamount, 22 February 2012 - 05:24 PM.

[Kartr]

Hey if you have an explanation that fits what we see on screen and makes sense from a scientific stand point I'm all ears, but I've heard a lot of arguments and seen more get refuted. This isn't my first time arguing Trek, first for WH40K, but not first for Trek. So if you've got something lay it on me.

[Catamount]

Later? Perhaps. For now, your "[scientifically ignorant]" opponent has climatology and calculus homework, and a really enthralling game of Civ4 in the meantime.

[Kartr]

Catamount, on 22 February 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Later? Perhaps. For now, your "[scientifically ignorant]" opponent has climatology and calculus homework, and a really enthralling game of Civ4 in the meantime.

Not sure how climatology or calculus has any bearing on what we're talking about. I'll be here, doing homework myself.

[Catamount]

It's just a curious pair of subjects, all things considered, isn't it? I mean, clearly anyone who disagrees with you is incapable of any knowledge of science, or any form of scientific reasoning.

[Kartr]

Catamount, on 22 February 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

It's just a curious pair of subjects, all things considered, isn't it? I mean, clearly anyone who disagrees with you is incapable of any knowledge of science, or any form of scientific reasoning.

Did I say that? Because I could have sworn that I called the idea that phasers dis-associate atomic bonds and/or vaporize targets to be an absurd claim that could be disproven by one year of college chemistry and more brains than the scarecrow. Hmm I'll retract that last phrase and let it stand at "...disproven by one year of college chemistry."

Now that doesn't change the fact that dis-associating atomic bonds and vaporization are not possible effects of phaser fire because the associated explosion from the sublimated material is not present, nor is there any pile or cloud of atoms left over from the victim.

[Catamount]

Kartr, on 22 February 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

Did I say that?

Yep, pretty much implied by the ******* tone of your post.

Quote

Because I could have sworn that I called the idea that phasers dis-associate atomic bonds and/or vaporize targets to be an absurd claim that could be disproven by one year of college chemistry and more brains than the scarecrow. Hmm I'll retract that last phrase and let it stand at "...disproven by one year of college chemistry."

a little better, at least now we're not completely out of the realm of basic internet etiquette

Quote

Now that doesn't change the fact that dis-associating atomic bonds and vaporization are not possible effects of phaser fire because the associated explosion from the sublimated material is not present, nor is there any pile or cloud of atoms left over from the victim.

This would be a problem with any sufficiently powerful weapon (just imagine how much of a problem it would create for SDN's estimates of average wars weaponry).

Phasers are basically technobabble "do anything" weapons (yes, it slightly annoys me as well). One of those effects is that they impart an enormous quantity of heat upon a target, which is why they're very frequently used to heat rocks for warmth, or savagely burn people in a few instances, mostly from prolonged low-setting exposure.

Of course, with any sufficiently powerful weapon, you'd deal with a cloud of vapor at best (VFX $$$$$$$$$$$), and with any matter-disrupting weapon, you'd have massive secondary releases of energy. This is old news, and a topic that has been beaten to death, by everyone, including the producers (Ron Moore was lamenting over it more than a decade ago).


So, for the sake of story and VFX budget, they use a cheap, pseudoscientific cop out. That's not news I trust, given that every scifi franchise does this. Transporters were also invented as a cop out to save money. Constant shuttle flights and having them around at landing sites were both a tax on VFX, and an unnecessary burden for the story, so they said "fine, our people magically appear wherever they want to go". Accelaration is explained away by inertial dampeners, which nearly every franchise has one form or another of.


So yes, phasers are physically impossible, insofar as we know (a fact not likely to change); so is a lot of what a lot of franchises do. Nevertheless, they do what they do.


How they work is, in most cases, less significant than what effects they're capable of, such as the capability to absolutely grossly negate solid materials, including tons of solid rock, at the hand phaser level (for the record, yes I think it's silly, like a lot of things in science fiction).

Edited by Catamount, 22 February 2012 - 06:33 PM.

[Kartr]

Catamount, on 22 February 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Yep, pretty much implied by the ******* tone of your post.




a little better, at least now we're not completely out of the realm of basic internet etiquette



This would be a problem with any sufficiently powerful weapon (just imagine how much of a problem it would create for SDN's estimates of average wars weaponry).

Phasers are basically technobabble "do anything" weapons (yes, it slightly annoys me as well). One of those effects is that they impart an enormous quantity of heat upon a target, which is why they're very frequently used to heat rocks for warmth, or savagely burn people in a few instances, mostly from prolonged low-setting exposure.

Of course, with any sufficiently powerful weapon, you'd deal with a cloud of vapor at best (VFX $$$$$$$$$$$), and with any matter-disrupting weapon, you'd have massive secondary releases of energy. This is old news, and a topic that has been beaten to death, by everyone, including the producers (Ron Moore was lamenting over it more than a decade ago).


So, for the sake of story and VFX budget, they use a cheap, pseudoscientific cop out. That's not news I trust, given that every scifi franchise does this. Transporters were also invented as a cop out to save money. Constant shuttle flights and having them around at landing sites were both a tax on VFX, and an unnecessary burden for the story, so they said "fine, our people magically appear wherever they want to go". Accelaration is explained away by inertial dampeners, which nearly every franchise has one form or another of.


So yes, phasers are physically impossible, insofar as we know (a fact not likely to change); so is a lot of what a lot of franchises do. Nevertheless, they do what they do.


How they work is, in most cases, less significant than what effects they're capable of, such as the capability to absolutely grossly negate solid materials, including tons of solid rock, at the hand phaser level (for the record, yes I think it's silly, like a lot of things in science fiction).

I'm familiar with SDN and their calculations and as I recall the vaporization side effects are part of their calculations. The sublimation of asteroids when hit by turbolaser fire being a prime example. Or the fist sized holes blown in the docking bay wall on Tatooine when Han is shooting stormtroopers. Energy is imparted, materials are sublimated and the resulting craters from the explosion as well as the expanding cloud of vapor is readily visible.

Also I was just re-reading the SDN examination of Phasers and the NDF principle of how they work. Their take on the NDF principle seems to make a lot of sense when compared to what we see in Trek. It also implies that heavy armor like the Imperium employs could be more effective than shields. As materials with higher atomic numbers are much more resistant to the NDF effects of phasers.

As I kept reading through the site I found out that the stated amount of Anti-matter in a photon is only enough to create a 64 megaton explosion assuming 100% efficiency. Only half of the energy would be directed at the target resulting in at most 32 megatons. On top of that in one episode the calculated energy released by a photon torpedo maxes out at 3 megatons.

/shrug so the more I read the more I think Star Trek's overwhelming superiority in technology is suspect.

[Strum Wealh]

Admittedly, I think Kartr raises an important point, as this "NDF effect" seems to be one of the key components of most arguments concerning the effectiveness of the Federation's weaponry.

In fact, I asked a similar question during the "Federation vs High Guard" debate:

Strum Wealh, on 14 January 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

So, I looked up this "NDF Effect"...

It seems as though there are materials (one of which is apparently commonly used in the construction of packing crates) that are resistant to the disruptive effects of phasers (and disruptors).

What makes such things resistant?
As such, who's to say that the High Guard isn't already using NDF-resistant(/immune) materials and/or technologies ("cold plasma armor" and/or "fullerene composite plating", for instance)?

I feel that Kartr may, in part, be asking fundamentally similar questions:
How canonically-valid is this "NDF effect"? What canon sources** explicitly support its existence/inclusion?
What specific materials (please list) are resistant to it? What specific qualities of said materials (please list) make them resistant?

** "Canon sources" being "explicit mention in any televised episodes or movies (please include video clip and/or episode citation), explicit mention in any canon print media (novels, technical readouts, etc), explicit mention/support by "Word of God" (interviews with showrunners and other staff), and explicit mention in other canon-recognized media (for example, release-state video games (fan-mods don't count))". Additionally, known and verifiable real-world science (e.g. the real-world physics and efficiency of M/AM reactions vs other power generation methods) counts.

It can either be backed by canon sources and/or real scientific principles, or it can't, right?
If it can, what are those sources/principles?
If it can't, what other explanations may work to do so?

That being said... we know that ST canon includes a set of weapons known as "disruptors".
Of particular interest are the "subatomic disruptors" of ST's 29th century and the disruptors used by the Romulans in the TNG era (one Subcommander N'Vek was apparently vaporized/disintegrated by such a weapon in Face of the Enemy).
How, specifically, do these weapons work? What are their limitations - that is, why use phasers at all when one can use disruptors?

[Zakatak]

Federation vs. Terran Empire



By 2155, they were already making the Vulcans/Denobulans/Klingons cry home to mommy. The ISS Enterprise NX-01 had cloak (and agony booths to keep the crew in line, lol). No more of that friendly peacekeeper bullshat! Hail to the Empire!

Edited by Zakatak, 22 February 2012 - 07:48 PM.

[Kartr]

Strum Wealh, on 22 February 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

...

Try these two links, one is specifically for phasers and the other for NDF: http://stardestroyer...Beam/Beam1.html | http://stardestroyer.../NDFTheory.html

Fair warning they are written in the style of an Imperial (Star Wars) report on the capabilities of Star Trek universe science and technology. As such there are many repeated uses of the phrase "Federation Cultists." If you can ignore the in character jabs at the Federation and Trekkies, the science and reasoning seems to be sound.

[guardiandashi]

disrupters and phasers work upon similar principles but different methods from everything I have reas about trek tech.

Phasers actually use a modified FTL laser as a carrier for the "attack energy pulse" at least thats the best non technobabble explanation I have.

another feature is that phasers have a wide range of "settings" in fact the portable phasers are as much (or more) tools as they are weapons.

with a federation phaser (Reference Star trek TNG RPG pg 234) a federation phaser has up to 16 primary settings.
setting 1 light stun damage (in the rpg 2 + 2d6 uses 1 charge notes stuns a human for 5 min
2 medium stun 4 +2d6 2 charges note stuns a human for 15 min klingon for 5 min
3 heavy stun 6+4d6 3 charges note stuns a human for an hour, klingon for 15 min
4 light thermal damage 8+2d6 5 charges note cut a 1 meter hole in 10 CM of wood in 3 minutes
5 heavy thermal 10+2d6 8 charges note cut a 1 m hole in 10cm of steel in 3 min (this is ~ equivalant to a modern plasma cutter rig)
6 light disrupt A 12+3d6 12 charges cut a 1M hole in 10cm steel or rock in 30 seconds
7 Light disrupt B 14+4d6 15 charges Notes Kill a humanoid; Cut a 1m hole in a duranium bulkhead in 10 minutes
8 light disrupt C 16+4D6 20 charges NOTE Vaporize a humanoid
9 light disrupt D 24+5d6 30 charges Vaporize resiliant alloys (beam Ricochets possible)
10 Heavy disrupt A 30+9D6 40 charges NOTE Vaporize any substance (Energy rebound prior to vaporization common)
11 Heavy Disrupt B 40+12D6 50 charges Note explode 10 cubic meters of rock into glowing rubble
12 Heavy disrupt C 60+12D6 60 charges explode 50 cubic meters of rock into rubble
13 heavy disrupt D 80+18D6 70 charges explode 100 cubic meters of rock into rubble
14 Heavy disrupt E 100+12d6 80 charges explode 160 cubic meters of rock into rubble
15 Heavy disrupt (F)? 120+12d6 90 charges explode 400 cubic meters of rock into rubble
16 Heavy Disrupt G 160+2d6 100 charges explode 600 cubic meters of rock into rubble

Disrupter table
pg 235

1 light stun same as phaser on setting 1
2 heavy stun same as phaser on setting 2
3 light thermal same as phaser on setting 5
4 heavy thermal 12+3d6 15 charges note cut a 1m hole in 10 cm steel or rock in 30 seconds cut a 1m hole in duranium bulkhead in 10 min
5 light disrupt 24+5d6 35 charges vaporize almost anything including humanoids and resiliant alloys
6 heavy disrupt 160+12d6 100 charges explode 600 cubic meters of rock into glowing rubble

Phaser (Short for PHASed Energy Rectification) blah phasers produce beams of rapid nadions (highly energetic, short lived sub atomic particles) these can generate a variety of effects depending on their energy state. at low energy phasers produce bioelectric shock which will stun most targets. at moderate settings the beam heats the target, at hgher settings this heating is replaced by large scale subatomic disruption which can cause moderate sized objects to vaporize and larger ones to explode.

phasers can be fired in standard beams, pulses, continious beams or wide beams

type 1 phaser settings 1-8, 160 charges
type 2 phaser settings 1-16 1000 charges
type 3 phaser (rifle) settings 1-16, 1500 charges


disruptors are a common alternative they fire bolts of highly charged plasma created by using microscopic amounts of antimater
disruptors cannot be recharged like phasers can they require replaceing the power cartridge which contains the antimatter.

Shipboard phasers are basically scaled up versions of the infantry weapons
shipboard disruptors seem (in some references) to induce a sonic effect into the target prior to/while the disruption effect is occuring

the point is disruptors are more analgous to modern guns with ammo (antimatter clips) and an energy pulse discharge

phasers are massively multipurpose tools/weapons, and can be used for a lot more uses than just "I blow stuff up"

additionaly the references indicate that phasers cause a sub atomic disruption/vaporization effect, which explains why there isn't any "ash" because the carbon in your body isn't carbon any more its a bunch of disassociated protons, neutrons, and electrons.


as far as replicator tech is concerned replicators CAN "transmute" atoms/molecules. as a reference the ferengi are big on "latinum currency" the reason this is is that latinum CANNOT be replicated, when you try you get a material called chasnium which has all the physical properties of latinum... except sensors can easilly tell it was replicated due to some atomic feature.

if I wanted to make say a shuttle craft, and all I had was a replicator and a power source, and a supply of raw matter common dirt, carbon tailings, trees etc I can do it but it will take vastly more energy than if I have the proper raw materials. That is what the "replicator mass" is its a "soup" of as many of the most commonly used elements in aproximately the right ratios to be made into a wide variety of items as easilly as possible.

replicators work on a "transporter technologyvariation where instaid of scanning the object, disassembling it, "beaming it to the destination and reassembling it using the scanned pattern to a high precision) it instaid "beams" up a supply of "source material" and reassembles it using a pre created pattern that is saved on file. one reference even indicated that some "patterns" are copywrited meaning that if I want to make a bowl of "chicken noodle soup" there might be some use fee that goes to campbels (for instance)

now while from what I have seen the federation hasn't completely eliminated "money" what they have done is made it so that for the average citizen money as such isn't that important as you can pretty much get whatever you want, as long as its not rare or restricted. IE you want a meal of replicated food no biggie, want a meal of ivers clam chowder that will cost you some, want a guitar played by ozzy? good luck that is REALLY expensive.

[Kartr]

guardiandashi, on 22 February 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

disrupters and phasers work upon similar principles but different methods from everything I have reas about trek tech.

Phasers actually use a modified FTL laser as a carrier for the "attack energy pulse" at least thats the best non technobabble explanation I have.

FTL stands for Faster than light, lasers are light, therefor you can't a laser (light) that travels faster than light. Your "explantion" is even more technobabble than NDF.

guardiandashi, on 22 February 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

Phaser (Short for PHASed Energy Rectification) blah phasers produce beams of rapid nadions (highly energetic, short lived sub atomic particles) these can generate a variety of effects depending on their energy state. at low energy phasers produce bioelectric shock which will stun most targets. at moderate settings the beam heats the target, at hgher settings this heating is replaced by large scale subatomic disruption which can cause moderate sized objects to vaporize and larger ones to explode.

Gah vaporization and exploding. That's not what happens on screen, definitely no explosions when something is disappeared. Other than that its roughly what the more plausible theories propose.

guardiandashi, on 22 February 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

phasers are massively multipurpose tools/weapons, and can be used for a lot more uses than just "I blow stuff up"

They act like heat lamps, stunners, torture devices and they can make people disappear. Hardly a multipurpose tool, about the only tool like thing it does is heat rocks to keep people warm.

guardiandashi, on 22 February 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

additionaly the references indicate that phasers cause a sub atomic disruption/vaporization effect, which explains why there isn't any "ash" because the carbon in your body isn't carbon any more its a bunch of disassociated protons, neutrons, and electrons.

Actually try sub atomic vaporization causing a nuclear explosion. You break apart the subatomic bonds and you have a fission explosion, something which is definately not seen any time phasers disintigrated someone.

guardiandashi, on 22 February 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

as far as replicator tech is concerned replicators CAN "transmute" atoms/molecules. as a reference the ferengi are big on "latinum currency" the reason this is is that latinum CANNOT be replicated, when you try you get a material called chasnium which has all the physical properties of latinum... except sensors can easilly tell it was replicated due to some atomic feature.

If Latinum can't be replicated (neither can gold btw) then obvioiusly they can't transmute atoms. However they do do it at the molecular level, which is why they have "food stock" which is basic molecules combined and re-arrainged to make any kind of food. Transporters are designed to destroy and rebuild on an even smaller, sub atomic scale. By the way "chasnium" which doesn't show up in a search of Memory Alpha.

guardiandashi, on 22 February 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

if I wanted to make say a shuttle craft, and all I had was a replicator and a power source, and a supply of raw matter common dirt, carbon tailings, trees etc I can do it but it will take vastly more energy than if I have the proper raw materials. That is what the "replicator mass" is its a "soup" of as many of the most commonly used elements in aproximately the right ratios to be made into a wide variety of items as easilly as possible.

Actually no because you don't have any of the elements you need. You're right "replicator mass" or "food stock" depending on the situation is a ratio of common elements and compounds. However you need the right atoms to utilize create your item. If transmutation was possible then there's no reason latinum or gold would be unreplicatable, nor would there be any real reason to carry any sort of stock. After all if anything is transmutable then just scoop up hydrogen as you need to replenish your depleted resivoir.

guardiandashi, on 22 February 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

replicators work on a "transporter technologyvariation where instaid of scanning the object, disassembling it, "beaming it to the destination and reassembling it using the scanned pattern to a high precision) it instaid "beams" up a supply of "source material" and reassembles it using a pre created pattern that is saved on file. one reference even indicated that some "patterns" are copywrited meaning that if I want to make a bowl of "chicken noodle soup" there might be some use fee that goes to campbels (for instance)

Nah there's no fee, because that would mean the UFP has money. Yes replicators work on a similar technology to transporters, but they don't work on the same level. Replicators manipulate molecules while transporters build on the quantom level to ensure that the copy of the destroyed person is identical down to the neurons firing in the synapses.

guardiandashi, on 22 February 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

now while from what I have seen the federation hasn't completely eliminated "money" what they have done is made it so that for the average citizen money as such isn't that important as you can pretty much get whatever you want, as long as its not rare or restricted. IE you want a meal of replicated food no biggie, want a meal of ivers clam chowder that will cost you some, want a guitar played by ozzy? good luck that is REALLY expensive.

What evidence do you have to support this assumption?