1189 replies to this topic

[Catamount]

Strum Wealh, on 26 February 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

Has MacGyver himself, any other individual member of his civilization, or any organized group (from rag-tag team to nation-state) of said civilization exhibited qualities or characteristics that would be indicative or characteristic of a civilization with capabilities in excess of a Type III?

Yes. http://macgyverscotland.ytmnd.com/

[Catamount]

guardiandashi, on 26 February 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

mabie I overreacted but I was picking up on an impression.

1 warhammer is the wins and nothing anyone can say to the contrary matters
2 even if the physics says this doesn't work, this old information that says BLAH that on one else can find ...

oh never mind

I will say that the way he phrased the arguements irritated me, it read as excessively fanboy and condencending to me, re a IP I have never cared that much for.

edit spelling

I will say that as has been mentioned warhammer IP irritates me because they routinely claim "magical, contridictory performance out of "tech" with no justification. its IMO the ultimate expression of "the rule of cool"

wheras other ip's that I like more:
robotech, honorverse, star trek, star wars, etc at least TRY to be internally consistant, warhammer 40k doesn't even seem to do that IMO

MOST franchises are at least consistent on the most obvious points. In fairness, Star Trek Voyager grossly violated this many times, with Parallax, for instance, which begins with a member of the crew requesting soil for her hydroponics bay, and ends with the ship making a hole in math and flying through (and let's not get started in Threshold, for the love of all that is holy).

I'm sorry, but for lack of a better word, that's just stupid. Yes, you have to bend science, and yes, most science fiction operates on the cheap copout of "well technically physics doesn't say I CAN'T do that, just that it doesn't know that I can", but within that framework most scifi is pretty good most of the time.


However, when 40k states that an ordinary nuclear warhead can fit into a torpedo smaller than that warhead... yeah, no.


As for not liking 40k, they make great games, but it's a universe that has more than questionable philosophical values written into the canon (excusing and justifying all the worst in humanity, and eschewing basic humanism and progress), and I'm more than a bit leery of that (it's like they're trying to write in cheap justifications to say it's okay to oppose all human progress to make oppression and regression seem cool! The hell?), and the racial powers themselves are basically oppressive, evil bullies who are effectively the enemies of all sentient life in that universe, which makes me more than a little disturbed that some posters have actually expressed a like for, say, the Imperium (I'm sorry, they're about as cool as Pol Pot), BUT... that's a discussion for another time

[GDL Rahsan]

Actually I am pretty sure Games Workshop is not justifying any of what it does. Actually if anyone sees what type of a universe the WH40K is they will probably try and stop doing anything they does to get themselves a better future so technically that is helping, yep I am just making stuff up . But there is some morales to get out of it. (( that are good for real life actually)) but like what you said this is a discussion for another time.

EDIT: Well guardian, it didn't help that the WH40K universe started as a parody for Warhammer, and had originally many parodies of a lot of popular works and real life examples too. But then Games Workshop decided to make it a "sereprate universe" and started to actually start invest in the plot etc etc


EDIT2: In support of what Catamount previously said I give you:

Inspirational Verse, Imperial Hymnal Vol. IV

Hate! Hate! Hate!
An emotion as pure as it is deep!
Hate! Hate! Hate!
Let it flow, let it run free!

And for something truly hilarious try reading any of the Adeptus Mechanicus "Instruction Manuals" or at least parts of it.

EDIT3: Ok this is the last one but here is the a quote of Runic Spaceflight - An Introduction: Naval Flight Manual W110E

"Should a machine not function upon striking the panel marked "on" this is an omen of great ill. The reasons ascribed may be as follows. Firstly, the function of inadequate preparation on the part of the operator. Secondly, the action of the machine whose spirit may refuse the binding of the operator. Thirdly, the malintent of some third party upon the operator or machine. The operator must repeat the ritual from the beginning re-purifying himself, enscribing the runes, intoning the incantations, and striking the panel marked 'on'. An accompanying oath may be made. Should this procedure fail, the operator must recourse to consulting the instruction manual."

Edited by GDL Rahsan, 26 February 2012 - 10:33 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Well, defeating 1300s England doesn't seem like too much of a feat, but the time-travel needed to get MacGyver to 1300s England would probably disqualify him (assuming it's a method he or other members of his parent civilization control, as opposed to some whimsical god-like being having a bit of fun).

To expand a bit more on the Kardashev Scale and the relative capabilities of each Type:

Quote

Type I civilization methods

• Large-scale application of fusion power. According to mass-energy equivalence, Type I implies the conversion of about 2 kg of matter to energy per second. While there is no known method to convert matter (by itself) completely into energy, an equivalent energy release could theoretically be achieved by fusing approximately 280 kg of hydrogen into helium per second, a rate roughly equivalent to 8.9×10^9 kg/year. A cubic km of water contains about 10^11 kg of hydrogen, and the Earth's oceans contain about 1.3×10^9 cubic km of water, meaning that this rate of consumption could be sustained over geological time scales, discounting the protium-deuterium imbalance.
  
• Antimatter in large quantities would have a mechanism to produce power on a scale several factors above our current level of technology. In antimatter-matter collisions, the entire rest mass of the particles is converted to kinetic energy. Their energy density (energy released per mass) is about four orders of magnitude greater than that from using nuclear fission, and about two orders of magnitude greater than the best possible yield from fusion. The reaction of 1 kg of anti-matter with 1 kg of matter would produce 1.8×10^17 J (180 petajoules) of energy. Although antimatter is sometimes proposed as a source of energy, this is currently infeasible. Artificially producing antimatter according to current understanding of the laws of physics involves first converting energy into mass, so there is no net gain. Artificially created antimatter is only usable as a medium of energy storage but not as an energy source, unless future technological developments (contrary to the conservation of the baryon number, such as a CP Violation in favour of antimatter) allow the conversion of ordinary matter into anti-matter. There are a number of naturally occurring sources of antimatter we may theoretically be able to cultivate and harvest in the future.
  
• Solar energy through converting sunlight into electricity by either solar cells and concentrating solar power or indirectly through wind and hydroelectric power. Currently, there is no known way for human civilization to successfully utilize the equivalent of the Earth's total absorbed solar energy without completely coating the surface with man-made structures, which is presently not feasible. However, if a civilization constructed very large space-based solar power satellites, Type I power levels might be achievable.

Type II civilization methods

• A Dyson sphere or Dyson swarm and similar constructs are hypothetical megastructures originally described by Freeman Dyson as a system of orbiting solar power satellites meant to completely enclose a star and capture most or all of its energy output.
  
• Perhaps a more exotic means to generate usable energy would be to feed a stellar mass into a black hole, and collect photons emitted by the accretion disc. Less exotic would be simply to capture photons already escaping from the accretion disc, reducing a black hole's angular momentum; known as the Penrose process.
  
• Star lifting is a process where an advanced civilization could remove a substantial portion of a star's matter in a controlled manner for other uses.
  
• Anti-matter is likely to be produced as an industrial byproduct of a number of megascale engineering processes (such as some of the Star Lifting above).
  
• In multiple-star systems of a sufficiently large number of stars, absorbing a small but significant fraction of the output of each individual star.

Type III civilization methods
Type III civilizations might use the same techniques employed by a Type II civilization, but applied to all of the stars of one or more galaxies individually. They may also be able to tap into the energy released from the supermassive black holes which are believed to exist at the center of most galaxies.

-----

Zoltan Galantai has defined a further extrapolation of the scale, a Type IV level which controls the energy output of the visible universe; this is within a few orders of magnitude of 10^45 W. Such a civilization approaches or surpasses the limits of speculation based on current scientific understanding, and may not be possible. Frank J. Tipler's Omega point would presumably occupy this level, as would the Biocosm hypothesis. Galantai has argued that such a civilization could not be detected, as its activities would be indistinguishable from the workings of nature (there being nothing to compare them to).

However, Milan M. Ćirković has argued that "Type IV" should instead be used to refer to a civilization that has harnessed the power of its supercluster, or "the largest gravitationally bound structure it originated in." For the Local Supercluster, this would be approximately 10^42 W.

Dr. Michio Kaku has discussed a Type IV civilization, which could harness "extragalactic" energy sources such as dark energy, in his book Parallel Worlds.

In contrast to simply increasing the maximum power level covered by the scale, Carl Sagan suggested adding another dimension: the information available to the civilization. He assigned the letter A to represent 10^6 unique bits of information (less than any recorded human culture) and each successive letter to represent an order of magnitude increase, so that a level Z civilization would have 10^31 bits. In this classification, 1973 Earth is a 0.7 H civilization, with access to 10^13 bits of information. Sagan believed that no civilization has yet reached level Z, conjecturing that so much unique information would exceed that of all the intelligent species in a galactic supercluster and observing that the universe is not old enough to effectively exchange information over larger distances. The information and energy axes are not strictly interdependent, so that even a level Z civilization would not need to be Kardashev Type III.

The Wikipedia article also gives a number of examples of each Type from various franchises.

So, where does everyone's favored or favorite civilizations fall on the scale?

[Catamount]

@GDL Rahsan

That's the thing, though, to do justify it, in a George Lucas sort of way saying "Oh, well we just wrote it so that they had no choice, so that even the "good guys", "protecting" humanity are regressive and oppressive, because it was just the right thing to do, because all human progress was ultimately evil and bad, and nearly killed humanity".

Like I said, it's less me out and out saying "that's bad" (though it's not the most relevant story to humanity, it is a good setting for a war game in its own way), it's just that, like I said, I'm leery; I'm dubious. It's just like BS George Lucas philosophy in the prequel Star Wars films, which effectively claims that if I get angry, even at, say, oppression and genocide, it will "corrupt me", and cause me to spontaneously reverse all of my political and philosophical world views, and join the people I was opposing. Basically, it's like claiming that if I get angry as the Nazis, the end result will be that I'll spontaneously become a member of the SS, and like 40k, Lucas justifies it by saying "oh, it's just how the universe works", and he uses that as a platform to attack democracy, humanism, basic human progress, futurism (read about his actual comments on society sometime) and it's really pretty sickening stuff. 40K doesn't do THAT, because they don't claim it applies to the real world, but to me, as I said, it's close enough in terms of in-story philosophy at a fundamental level, that it makes me a bit wary, seeing what values other franchises have promoted with similar reasoning.


More than that, though, you might say I don't have a problem with 40k itself, besides thinking the story to be less relevant than real science fiction (Stargate, Trek, etc). My real problem is with the people here (not recently, more people further back in the thread) who had this "Aww, yeah, the Imperium is SO COOL; I want to be a Space Marine because they're SO COOL!" attitude. In the off-topic forums, there's even a "what franchise would you live in, IRL, if you could" thread, with people picking 40k. THAT disturbs me. There's no being leery there; that's just out and out disturbing.

Edited by Catamount, 26 February 2012 - 10:38 AM.

[Catamount]

Strum Wealh, on 26 February 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

Well, defeating 1300s England doesn't seem like too much of a feat, but the time-travel needed to get MacGyver to 1300s England would probably disqualify him (assuming it's a method he or other members of his parent civilization control, as opposed to some whimsical god-like being having a bit of fun).

To expand a bit more on the Kardashev Scale and the relative capabilities of each Type:


The Wikipedia article also gives a number of examples of each Type from various franchises.

So, where does everyone's favored or favorite civilizations fall on the scale?

Remember though, Macgyver did it in 14 seconds, with a cardboard box and a soda can

Some of what he did was sometimes pretty questionable in terms of plausibility (it was the 80s, what do you want?), but he was always a great protagonist. I can't think of a better concept for a hero.


As for where most civilizations sit, I think all of the ones here are petty squarely Type I, except for the Ancients, and potentially the Asgard at their peak (they can do absurd things, like artificially change the mass of entire stars to collapse them, but we only see them as their civilization is effectively destroyed by the replicators and their own genetic problems). Those two qualify as Type II, I think, or at least come close.

[GDL Rahsan]

Catamount, on 26 February 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

@GDL Rahsan

That's the thing, though, to do justify it, in a George Lucas sort of way saying "Oh, well we just wrote it so that they had no choice, so that even the "good guys", "protecting" humanity are regressive and oppressive, because it was just the right thing to do, because all human progress was ultimately evil and bad, and nearly killed humanity".

Like I said, it's less me out and out saying "that's bad" (though it's not the most relevant story to humanity, it is a good setting for a war game in its own way), it's just that, like I said, I'm leery; I'm dubious. It's just like BS George Lucas philosophy in the prequel Star Wars films, which effectively claims that if I get angry, even at, say, oppression and genocide, it will "corrupt me", and cause me to spontaneously reverse all of my political and philosophical world views, and join the people I was opposing. Basically, it's like claiming that if I get angry as the Nazis, the end result will be that I'll spontaneously become a member of the SS, and like 40k, Lucas justifies it by saying "oh, it's just how the universe works", and he uses that as a platform to attack democracy, humanism, basic human progress, futurism (read about his actual comments on society sometime) and it's really pretty sickening stuff. 40K doesn't do THAT, because they don't claim it applies to the real world, but to me, as I said, it's close enough in terms of in-story philosophy at a fundamental level, that it makes me a bit wary, seeing what values other franchises have promoted with similar reasoning.


More than that, though, you might say I don't have a problem with 40k itself, besides thinking the story to be less relevant than real science fiction (Stargate, Trek, etc). My real problem is with the people here (not recently, more people further back in the thread) who had this "Aww, yeah, the Imperium is SO COOL; I want to be a Space Marine because they're SO COOL!" attitude. In the off-topic forums, there's even a "what franchise would you live in, IRL, if you could" thread, with people picking 40k. THAT disturbs me. There's no being leery there; that's just out and out disturbing.

I never really listened to Lucas much, but if that's correct then I think that your stance is understandable, as for the "whcih SCI-FI universe you would love to live in?" I have already posted their about how living in the WH40K is bad, at the first page and at the second as a rebuttal against a guy who said its cool, I myself chose Face of Mankind universe with Star Trek and stargate coming as second and third. But yeah you have a point about WH40K but don't bother yourself too much about it and remember the amount of GRIMDARK(™) there have already crossed the line to the so horrible it's hilarious area. And I remind you about WH40K arc words

In the grim, dark future of the 41st millennium, there is ONLY WAR!

[guardiandashi]

actually there is an arguement that you could make that the "ancients" in the star gate universe are actually a level 3 civ, not because of what they are actually doing, but because after they "ascended" as near as I can tell they are on the level with some of the trek "god" races
the Q continium
the organians
trelane and his family
apollo (from the origional series)
the people who made the guardian of forever
etc

what is "interesting" is that most of the "civilizations" seem to take a mostly "hands off approach" on the "lesser/normal races" sometimes seeming to view them as "children" but some of the star trek eu novels seem indicate that there are "levels" of ascention IE
humanity = intellegent
organians/Q basic ascended
above Q races
above the above Q races?

[Commander Elias Vaughn]

Yeah, Q can snap his fingers and wipe the Imperium out of existence. I never said he couldn't. The Federation, however, is no match for the Imperium. Even taking The Die is Cast into account, we're talking 20 ships who couldn't accomplish what one ship in those two separate videos I posted accomplished (the latter of which was accomplished with a single warhead).

This, after all, is the universe where the following scenes occured:

Quote

[color=black]There is a glimmer. A flash. Beams of coherent energy, beams of staggering magnitude, rip from Calth and its orbital stations.

Calth has a weapons grid capable of keeping at bay an entire expeditionary fleet or primary battlegroup. Only the most devious and ingenious treachery has circumvented it today.

The weapons grid begins to discharge. Calth begins to kill the neighbouring planets in the Veridian System.

It starts with a massive asteroid world that orbits the system beyond the circuit of Calth's moons. The asteroid, called Alamasta, is the main remnant of a planet that once occupied that orbital slot. It is now a rock the size of a major satellite.

It is no longer called Alamasta. It is known as Veridia Forge. It is the system's principal Mechanicum station, and the most significant manufacturing venue in six systems.

Veridia Forge is helpless, its systems crashed by the same scrapcode that brought the Calth grid down.

It has no shields, no responsive weaponry, and no means of evasion.

It takes four prolonged strikes from the weapons grid. The first two burn away surface rock and immolate rockcrete bastions or adamantine bulwarks. The third voids the main fabricatory to space, and combusts the forge world's reactor power systems.

The fourth causes Veridia Forge to explode like a newborn star.

For the next eighteen minutes, Calth has no nightside.[/color]

Quote

[color=black]Kor Phaeron steps forward and places his left hand on the master control.

He presses it.

The weapons grid begins to fire. Concentrated and coherent energy. Shoals of missiles. Destructive beams. Warheads of antimatter sheathed in heavy metals. The rays and beams will take almost eight minutes to reach their target. The hard projectiles will take considerably longer. But they will all hit in turn, and continue to strike again and again as the merciless bombardment continues.

Their target is the blue-white star of the Veridian System.

Kor Phaeron begins to murder the sun.[/color]

610 gigaton torpedoes are hardly out of line with that.

[Catamount]

You have a point about the ascending Ancients. The Asgard, by end-SGA we just don't know.

Their empire was so vast, that even when the main civilization died out from that ridiculous SG-1 finale (don't even get me started), there were still pockets of Asgard left over, strewn across god only knows how many galaxies.


@GDL Rahsan

Quote

I never really listened to Lucas much, but if that's correct then I think that your stance is understandable, as for the "whcih SCI-FI universe you would love to live in?" I have already posted their about how living in the WH40K is bad, at the first page and at the second as a rebuttal against a guy who said its cool, I myself chose Face of Mankind universe with Star Trek and stargate coming as second and third. But yeah you have a point about WH40K but don't bother yourself too much about it and remember the amount of GRIMDARK(™) there have already crossed the line to the so horrible it's hilarious area. And I remind you about WH40K arc words

It's very true that it's not entirely fair to hold George Lucas' philosophical ugliness against 40k. Like I said, I'm just a bit leery of it.

I'm more disturbed by people who think the 40k lore presents a "cool" universe, but then, you apparently are too.


As for Star Wars, one of these days, I suggest you read Star Wars on Trial by David Brin for a rundown of some of the problems with George Lucas, a man who has blatantly stated the Democracy is ineffective, and that "the ideal form of government is a benevolent dictator".

A shorter look at Wars'/Lucas' philosophy is here:

http://www.salon.com...6/15/brin_main/

and it's a good discussion of how Star Wars is really a typical tale harkening back to a Feudal Age tradition in story telling born out of contempt for the masses and human progress, that teaches us that the only true people who matter in society are the "ordained", who are above the importance of everyone else, and above reproach, and that all of life is essentially dictated by fate, fate which favors the few, for which the masses have no recourse (in other words, it's a tradition in story telling made to justify feudal rule).

Quote

Just what bill of goods are we being sold, between the frames?

• Elites have an inherent right to arbitrary rule; common citizens needn’t be consulted. They may only choose which elite to follow.
  
• “Good” elites should act on their subjective whims, without evidence, argument or accountability.
  
• Any amount of sin can be forgiven if you are important enough.
  
• True leaders are born. It’s genetic. The right to rule is inherited.
  
• Justified human emotions can turn a good person evil.

That is just the beginning of a long list of “moral” lessons relentlessly pushed by “Star Wars.”

Now, I don't hate Star Wars, and indeed, most of these problem manifest themselves in the prequel films most strongly, when Lucas didn't have all the feedback from other people who had strong say in the films.

The IP itself even has some things to like, and is a rich universe. Lucas himself, however, tries very hard to lace the franchise with his own personal, monstrous values.

[Catamount]

Commander Elias Vaughn, on 26 February 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Yeah, Q can snap his fingers and wipe the Imperium out of existence. I never said he couldn't. The Federation, however, is no match for the Imperium. Even taking The Die is Cast into account, we're talking 20 ships who couldn't accomplish what one ship in those two separate videos I posted accomplished (the latter of which was accomplished with a single warhead).

This, after all, is the universe where the following scenes occured:


610 gigaton torpedoes are hardly out of line with that.

It might be, were it not for the fact that you've just completely glossed over and utterly failed to address the past page or so of statements and questions about your point of view here.

Besides, even if it were a battle between your preposterous "let's just throw logic to the wind" torpedoes, and TDiC level firepower, the very fact that an Imperium vessel would never be able to strike a Federation starship with any kind of weapon (almost certainly not at sublight speed, and most certainly not at FTL), renders a minor firepower advantage, one that's questionable at best given 40k's apparently inability to ever display the slightest bit of consistency, moot.


Also, Federation ships can clearly spontaneously change size, since 40k is allowed to fit warheads into their torpedoes that are bigger than the torpedoes.


I can't wait to see what happens when the already planet-annihilating fleets of the Federation spontaneously explode in size

Edited by Catamount, 26 February 2012 - 11:37 AM.

[GDL Rahsan]

Ok thanks I will probably read that book sometime. As for me thinking the WH40K universe as "cool" I must say I am a bit confused. If you mean I think that the WH40K lore represents a universe that is interesting and supports the type of games introduced by Games Workshop, as in Wargames which is basically everything you will get out of it, then yes. But if you mean if I consider the WH40K universe as a "cool" universe to live in with correct philosophies and noble ideals that could possible work in real life or that I would like any sentient being to live there then I must say it requires the passing of 4 ice ages in Hell to even consider that concept of "cool".

Edited by GDL Rahsan, 26 February 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[Catamount]

I mean the latter, of course, which applies to both the philosophies, and the entities within (which is to say, is the Imperium, for instance, "cool").

It like the BT universe a lot. It's a universe with a fair bit of depth and a lot of interesting history, one or two terrible arcs aside, and I may wear a Marik insignia, but House Marik is still just a petty and often oppressive and belligerent political power. I certainly don't consider them "cool" (though, in fairness, one of the virtues of the FWL is that the semi-autonomous nature of many places means you don't have to like Marik ).

[GDL Rahsan]

Then that means I do not think that the WH40K universe is cool good let's keep that as a fact, but I have to approve what you said the BT universe is one of the rare universes ,with mechs I must add, that convoy a bit of a realistic feeling to it from world politics to civilian life, I myself am a Gray Death Legion memeber which can be some how considered a hero, may be a grayish Anti-Hero shade, Oh and for FWL they offer freedom of speech, you know to state that you hate the House etc right?

[Catamount]

Yeah, the FWL is definitely not among the worst powers in BT, not even close. "Oppressive" is probably the wrong word for them, even in their worst moments, though belligerent is not undeserved:)

[guardian wolf]

GDL Rahsan, on 26 February 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

Ok thanks I will probably read that book sometime. As for me thinking the WH40K universe as "cool" I must say I am a bit confused. If you mean I think that the WH40K lore represents a universe that is interesting and supports the type of games introduced by Games Workshop, as in Wargames which is basically everything you will get out of it, then yes. But if you mean if I consider the WH40K universe as a "cool" universe to live in with correct philosophies and noble ideals that could possible work in real life or that I would like any sentient being to live there then I must say it requires the passing of 4 ice ages in Hell to even consider that concept of "cool".

Yeah have to agree with you on that one, as I think Star Wars, even with some of the things that happened there, is still not even close to 40k's ****. And to be honest, I actually picked Star Wars, as I currently have a character going through a story in that setting, and may even submit it to Lucas Arts to see if it's publisher worthy.

[Catamount]

guardian wolf, on 26 February 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

Yeah have to agree with you on that one, as I think Star Wars, even with some of the things that happened there, is still not even close to 40k's ****. And to be honest, I actually picked Star Wars, as I currently have a character going through a story in that setting, and may even submit it to Lucas Arts to see if it's publisher worthy.

You could always run it by the forums, see what people think

[Kip Wilson]

Quote

After 2012, the Zentradi are estimated to have 1000-2000 fleets of sizes similar to the 4.8-million-ship Boddole Zer Main Fleet in Space War I.

From the wikipedia entry on the Zentradi fleet. Based on those numbers and the fact that a typical Zentradi vessel is equivalent in size to a super star destroyer and that each vessel contains 10 - 100,000 tactical battle pods AND each command ship (which is about one out of every twelve) mounts the same main obliterate everything cannon of the SDF-1. The Zentradi fleet could take on the combined fleets of every other sci-fi universe together and win.

So Id have to say the Macross universe wins hands down. And technology really doesnt matter here, theyd just grind any opponent down through sheer numbers (as is the Zentradi way).

[Catamount]

Kip Wilson, on 26 February 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

From the wikipedia entry on the Zentradi fleet. Based on those numbers and the fact that a typical Zentradi vessel is equivalent in size to a super star destroyer and that each vessel contains 10 - 100,000 tactical battle pods AND each command ship (which is about one out of every twelve) mounts the same main obliterate everything cannon of the SDF-1. The Zentradi fleet could take on the combined fleets of every other sci-fi universe together and win.

So Id have to say the Macross universe wins hands down. And technology really doesnt matter here, theyd just grind any opponent down through sheer numbers (as is the Zentradi way).

So wait, these guys have 5-10 billion ships? Yeah, I'd say that pretty much wins hands down, but then, I think we already said at the beginning that the strongest would be some random anime... (though, in fairness, there are probably 500 random obscure anime series none of us know about that are vastly stronger still; the Japanese have a way of doing things... big... in their animated shows )

[Jack Gammel]

Catamount, on 26 February 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

So wait, these guys have 5-10 billion ships? Yeah, I'd say that pretty much wins hands down, but then, I think we already said at the beginning that the strongest would be some random anime... (though, in fairness, there are probably 500 random obscure anime series none of us know about that are vastly stronger still; the Japanese have a way of doing things... big... in their animated shows )

Are we talking anime now? Taking animes into account the the win probably has to go to Gurren Lagann, since spiral power is based on pure willpower. As long as they don't give up their space/psychic mecha (which is three times the size of a galaxy...assuming the galaxies within the pocket dimension the anti-spirals live in are the same size as those in our dimension) will win.

Edited by Jack Gammel, 26 February 2012 - 08:11 PM.