56 replies to this topic

[Soy]

no

[Knyx]

7/10 for troll bait OP. Only the vocal minority thinks the TW and SCR are OP, and anytime DW is mentioned as OP, whomever mentioned it should uninstall the game.


Statistically even the Tuk event showed:
1. The top IS mechs are quite a big stronger then the top clan mechs (Ty over quirking)
2. Even some of the non top IS mechs contend with the top clan mechs.
3. Attack- invasion and Hold territory give you and automatic advantage (which most of us already knew)


What I think needs to be done?

1. The top IS mechs need to have their quirks reduced a bit. Ex: Stalker, Tbolt, jager, FS
2. Give IS an ECM heavy but make it hardpoint location deficient like the Summoner
3. Move the ECM platform from hellbringer and Hardwire it into every LT (or RT) omnipod for Summoner
4. Give Hellbringer Endo and add some quirks to arms and Torsos (no none of this -3% ERPPC heat crap, or LBX spread crap)
5. Add a hardwired TC V to all Hellbringer LTs, with no additional tonnage cost.
6. Remove JJs from Dire Wolf -S, Remove most of the hardpoints on DW-S LT and RT and Give those torsos MASC
7. Increase the current weapon quirks and give all LT and RT omnipods high acceleration, reverse, and torso twist quirks for the Gargoyle
8. Give Ice ferret -10% energy Heat generation and +Range to SRM and SSRM quirks on all RT omnipods
9. Hardwire ECM in all LT omnipods for Mist lynx at no additional tonnage and replace current arm ECM hardpoint with an additional missile hardpoint
10. Add some quirks to Mad dog Torsos for +armor, -heat gen for missiles, and reduced spread and +range for SRM as well as SSRM
11. Reduce heat on ALL clans Ballistics (except gauss), increase ammo per ton on all clan ballistics (except Gauss), and lower cooldown on ALL LBX platforms by a good mount.

Edited by Knyx, 04 May 2015 - 05:48 AM.

[Ultimax]

Can we go like one day without a Nerf thread of some kind?

[Joseph Mallan]

Ultimatum X, on 04 May 2015 - 05:56 AM, said:

Can we go like one day without a Nerf thread of some kind?

Nerf asking for Nerfs!

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 May 2015 - 03:26 AM, said:

Your reason I don't doubt. Your logic however is in question.

Eh, it's just as logical as those who promote the fallacy that TT had a 30 pt heat cap (and the number of HS doesn't affect it). Since heat in TT has always been factored end of round, not "by the tick", the more heat sinks a mech has, the higher effective cap it has.

I'm not against trying a system like mentioned in Test Server (since all too often "perfect fixes" on paper meet reality and flop), but I do tire of hearing the inaccurate argument "cuz that's how it's done inTT", which seems to be made by players who have only ever played "TT" on Megamek, which is not apparently playing official tourney rules, since people comment on how it has "alpha strike" special rules, etc. (Um, in TT, an AWS-8Q could alpha strike multiple times before seeing any notable build up, and quite a while before facing shut down. My usual rule was 3-4 Alphas while if stationary, then one round with just 2 PPCs, to hit heat neutral again, then blast away. Something apparently mighty megamek frowns on, lol)

[InRev]

Knyx, on 04 May 2015 - 05:39 AM, said:

7/10 for troll bait OP. Only the vocal minority thinks the TW and SCR are OP, and anytime DW is mentioned as OP, whomever mentioned it should uninstall the game.

Usually the number of players who genuinely understand game mechanics constitutes a minority of the population which the rest just follows and parrots, so you're half correct. And what does that minority of comp players say? That the TW and SCR outperform all other mechs in this game (other clanners included) to the point that they are the absolute go-to in unrestricted comp play.

Now I'm not saying we should take the nerf-hammer to them. However, what is undeniable is that they inspired the quirk power-sprint because everything has revolved around bringing mechs up to their standard. A game without TWs and SCRs in their current iteration would not need such hefty quirks in the first place. That is the main problem with the Trinity: they sparked a power creep arms race.

PS: "whomever" is an object, not subject pronoun. I know you like to call people illiterate when they argue with you, so you might want to work on your pronoun usage.

[Kain Demos]

Praetor Knight, on 04 May 2015 - 12:14 AM, said:

I don't think they'd go bye bye, it's could promote players actually needing to bring a mixed loadout, while reducing our high volume of fire.

I'd at least want to test it out.

Imagine two C-ERLLs at 12 heat each would naturally be limited to two, and if the player brought a mix of other weapons, would be able to switch over to using those weapons when needed. An easy example, the TBR Prime would have to choose between LRMs or ERLLs at range, but still able to easily fire its two C-ERMLs and C-MPL for 16 heat at close range, dissipating 6.8 heat each second with 17 DHS.

---

Going with 60, that could be fine too, it's where 10 engine DHS sit right now, for example. But that would likely mean little change with dissipation and still being stuck with ghost heat though.

At any rate, I hope for possibly getting true external dubs (and getting an updated Mech Tree Efficiencies) with setting a 60 cap.

If they were to cap it at 60 they would then need to make DHS better as well. This "let's make it so we can only shoot 2 lasers every 20 seconds for the children" crap is pretty weak but I could live with a 60 heat hard cap if we got much, much better dissipation.

[Knyx]

InRev, on 04 May 2015 - 06:15 AM, said:

Usually the number of players who genuinely understand game mechanics constitutes a minority of the population which the rest just follows and parrots, so you're half correct. And what does that minority of comp players say? That the TW and SCR outperform all other mechs in this game (other clanners included) to the point that they are the absolute go-to in unrestricted comp play.

Now I'm not saying we should take the nerf-hammer to them. However, what is undeniable is that they inspired the quirk power-sprint because everything has revolved around bringing mechs up to their standard. A game without TWs and SCRs in their current iteration would not need such hefty quirks in the first place. That is the main problem with the Trinity: they sparked a power creep arms race.

PS: "whomever" is an object, not subject pronoun. I know you like to call people illiterate when they argue with you, so you might want to work on your pronoun usage.

A. The comp players and the majority of players in general do not use the forums much less take time to make threads. This is accurate for ANY game out there

B. Strike 2, only the vocal minority thinks the Timber and crow are OP, and these are mostly IS players if not ALL IS players (clan alt accts taken into consideration). Just like almost every game in any multiplayer market with the major balance issues, the root cause is the developer listening to the vocal minority rather then objectively dissecting metrics they have access to. Listening to the vocal minority rather then dissecting metrics = quirking and over quirking

C. This is just advice, but if you are going to try and correct the grammar of another poster, make sure you don't fail miserably and instead be wrong yourself. For me to claim someone is illiterate *because* they argued with me, would assume that they actually presented an argument. Reading the post they are replying to is a required step to being able to present an argument, failing to do so and attempting to argue makes them look illiterate.

Edited by Knyx, 04 May 2015 - 07:29 AM.

[Johnny Z]

+1 for clan nerfing

[CyclonerM]

SaltBeef, on 03 May 2015 - 10:45 PM, said:

I do not like to hear Bitchin betty constantly whine about my heat as is....so NO! Alpha Striking has always been a Part of BT.

Aff, but it was a last resort, not the standard way of firing weapons.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

beleneagle, on 03 May 2015 - 08:50 PM, said:

what do we do?

How about NOT take a trip to Abilene?

[Skarlock]

Brody319, on 03 May 2015 - 10:19 PM, said:

You doubt my reason?!
Then it shall be a heat threshold of 5!

How about we reduce it to 1, so that I can run a triple or quad gauss rifle dire wolf and just headshot every member of the enemy team when they try to actually attack me with gauss weapons and overheat? This would be fair and balanced for everyone! As long as everyone has a dire wolf and drives a dire wolf, exclusively.

[Aethon]

Brody319, on 03 May 2015 - 10:09 PM, said:

Max Heat threshold of 10 for all mechs. Alpha strike problem - Gone OP Clan mechs - Gone OP IS mechs - Gone Time to Kill - Gone

Not sure if serious...

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 May 2015 - 06:01 AM, said:

Eh, it's just as logical as those who promote the fallacy that TT had a 30 pt heat cap (and the number of HS doesn't affect it). Since heat in TT has always been factored end of round, not "by the tick", the more heat sinks a mech has, the higher effective cap it has.

I'm not against trying a system like mentioned in Test Server (since all too often "perfect fixes" on paper meet reality and flop), but I do tire of hearing the inaccurate argument "cuz that's how it's done inTT", which seems to be made by players who have only ever played "TT" on Megamek, which is not apparently playing official tourney rules, since people comment on how it has "alpha strike" special rules, etc. (Um, in TT, an AWS-8Q could alpha strike multiple times before seeing any notable build up, and quite a while before facing shut down. My usual rule was 3-4 Alphas while if stationary, then one round with just 2 PPCs, to hit heat neutral again, then blast away. Something apparently mighty megamek frowns on, lol)

I only played a few rounds of MegaMech, didn't do it for me. So I don't know about that, I have played quite a few MechWarrior video games. I never had a problem building Heat Neutral rides.

As for the Awesome... I was a 3/3/2/3/3/2 Cyclic rate but I liked 0 heat mods!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 May 2015 - 09:56 AM.

[AkoolPopTart]

In regards to "balance/Nerfing" in general.

"All is fair in love and war"

Find ways to counter build the guy killing you instead of complaining about balance. Use your brains for once. PGI should, if they haven't already, take the lore weapon stats and apply them to the game and lock it. Got a problem with a certain weapon doing X, Y, or Z? Too bad, learn to use it properly. Heavy handed, yes, but balancing in my opinion is an utter waste of time.

[Gyrok]

Praetor Knight, on 04 May 2015 - 12:14 AM, said:

I don't think they'd go bye bye, it's could promote players actually needing to bring a mixed loadout, while reducing our high volume of fire.

I'd at least want to test it out.

Imagine two C-ERLLs at 12 heat each would naturally be limited to two, and if the player brought a mix of other weapons, would be able to switch over to using those weapons when needed. An easy example, the TBR Prime would have to choose between LRMs or ERLLs at range, but still able to easily fire its two C-ERMLs and C-MPL for 16 heat at close range, dissipating 6.8 heat each second with 17 DHS.

---

Going with 60, that could be fine too, it's where 10 engine DHS sit right now, for example. But that would likely mean little change with dissipation and still being stuck with ghost heat though.

At any rate, I hope for possibly getting true external dubs (and getting an updated Mech Tree Efficiencies) with setting a 60 cap.

The issue we have here, is even in tabletop, that was assessed at the end of your 10 second turn, and you were dissipating heat for each HS during that 10 seconds.

For example:

A WHK prime with 22DHS manages to dissipate 44 heat per 10 second turn. This means the WHK prime could fire 3 CERPPC every 10 seconds, and only gain 1 heat per turn beyond what it could dissipate.

If you tried to setup a hard capped threshold at 30, there would need to be lots of changes to systems to accommodate that...

[Fate 6]

Knyx, on 04 May 2015 - 05:39 AM, said:

Statistically even the Tuk event showed:
1. The top IS mechs are quite a big stronger then the top clan mechs (Ty over quirking)
2. Even some of the non top IS mechs contend with the top clan mechs.
3. Attack- invasion and Hold territory give you and automatic advantage (which most of us already knew)

1. Nowhere in the statistics is this even suggested. There's no direct comparison of mechs.
2. Again, there's nothing in the statistics that suggests any direct comparison of mechs.
3. This did give Clans some advantage, as the IS were always on Counter Attack or Defense.

What you're also failing to notice is that the Stalker-4N that everyone complains about was the 4th most popular chassis. Not first, not second, but fourth (you have to actually read and see that they defined champion mechs as separate variants so the 9SE and 9SE(C) have separate stats, for example).
.
.
.
I read the rest of your post with your suggestions on what to change and now I'm pretty sure you're actually just a troll so I'm disappointed that I took the time to respond at all

[Mystere]

Brody319, on 03 May 2015 - 10:09 PM, said:

Max Heat threshold of 10 for all mechs.
Alpha strike problem - Gone
OP Clan mechs - Gone
OP IS mechs - Gone
Time to Kill - Gone

You do realize a number of weapons produce 10 or more heat, right?

[Fate 6]

Knyx, on 04 May 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

A. The comp players and the majority of players in general do not use the forums much less take time to make threads. This is accurate for ANY game out there

B. Strike 2, only the vocal minority thinks the Timber and crow are OP, and these are mostly IS players if not ALL IS players (clan alt accts taken into consideration). Just like almost every game in any multiplayer market with the major balance issues, the root cause is the developer listening to the vocal minority rather then objectively dissecting metrics they have access to. Listening to the vocal minority rather then dissecting metrics = quirking and over quirking

A. The reason comp players don't bother with the forums is because useful things only get done on Twitter with PGI. Additionally, because they don't want to deal with people making assumptions like your second point:

B. You have no idea if it's a minority or majority that thinks Timber is OP, and it's not IS players that complain it's competitive players. The competitive teams don't care about factions, they'll play whatever is best or whatever they feel like practicing in. If you watched the MLMW streams you'd see why people are tired of the Timber Wolf - in 3/3/3/3 drops 2 if not 3 of the heavies are Timber Wolves 100% of the time. In tonnage based drops generally there are 4-7 Timber Wolves because it's the best mech, period, so people take as many as they can. For example, in the recent AS vs TCAF game there were at least 10 Timber Wolves in drop 2 out of 24 mechs.

Sure, competitive players are the minority, but if you're not listening to balance suggestions from the players that actually know what they're doing then we might as well throw any hope of balance out the window now and PGI can just let us take 12 Timber Wolves into group queue, because I guarantee all competitive teams would do that if they could.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

I have to wonder how many would be calling to nerf the top 3 clan mechs if the din't have so many weapon hard points. If a timber had hard points like a highlander would we even be here? I think that we may as far as the crow, because of it's hitboxes, but what if the dire couldn't mount 6x a/c's? Or 14 lasers? How do you balance say a timber to a Victor or Orion when the clans have so many hard points?I see a little bit of heat, but that sure ain't stopping the meta crowd. Maybe double the rate of fire for the IS mechs while giving them heat breaks? Then we have the power leep that was brought on by Mr. Dire. Everyone got to have fun cutting another mech in two with it's truly awesome firepower. That was fun, but it got things started down the wrong road of lower and lower TTK. I don't even try and play my Victors anymore just cause they don't have the armor to deal with the much higher alpha's. They are one hit wonders and everyone knows it. Maybe if we had LFE's that we could stuff in them, so they might have the survivability that the clans have. That might help the TTK, but the firepower race is on in it's earnest-what do we do?

Number of hard points are part of it. But a Grasshopper also has lots of energy hardpoints and even with quirks is not as good as a TW. So its many things not just one thing that is the main problem.